NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[Devington]

So why would the AFL pay them off?

I assume that would only be to buy silence?

FWIW about the only solid outcome from this is that the complainants agreed not to involve the AFL, and the AFL alone, in any future action.

 

[freddy mercury]

So do I have this right, essentially?

1. Ex-players accuse their coaches of XX
2. AFL launches an investigation
3. AFL finds no wrongdoing
4. AFL makes payout to ex players

Is that correct? Or am I missing something?

Pretty much. Nothing a bag of cash can't fix

 

[Rob R]

What power/authority does the Human Rights Commission have in this instance?

Just like Yoorook, it has highly qualified people who can compel testimony and investigate an issue but can do no more than make recommendations. So essentially unless it can facilitate a negotiated outcome, it is largely just a delay to getting to court

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[firefighter]

Pay enough money and you can make anything disappear.

 

[HairyO]

Racism is the big media talking point.

But Point one of the AFL inquiry was to look for inappropriate conduct. The original draft of the inquiry terms supposedly had no mention of racism and it was added at the request of the accusing parties.

If it does go to the HRC it will be based on discrimination - could very well be gender based as well or even instead of racial. As well as being linked by race, Jackson's article contained three stories claiming the employer actively tried to separate the player from their partners - all of them with kids or pregnancies involved. Race isn't the only angle on what went on here. And Burt's story suggests that something pretty unusual in terms of a workplace went on here.

Racism was the point of the Egan investigation and the conclusion he found. Its what had the media and social media even more-so up in arms demanding the lifetime bans for the accused.

Not because they helped a player break up with his girlfriend so he could focus more on his footy.

So you're now stepping back from your rhetoric?

Fagan certainly isnt stepping back. He came out with both barrels this evening. Called the accusers a bunch of liars.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Just like Yoorook, it has highly qualified people who can compel testimony and investigate an issue but can do no more than make recommendations. So essentially unless it can facilitate a negotiated outcome, it is largely just a delay to getting to court

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

It can also create an enormous media storm

 

[craffles]

It really is amazing how low the collective IQ of Bigfooty is some times. So many posters claiming that the AFL disbanding their investigation (as they should have from the beginning) is proof of innocence. *spoiler alert, it is not.

Burts admission that the events did take place and were fiery coupled with Fagan’s loaded statement which essentially read “I’m innocent cause I don’t view what happened as racism” is enough alone to see this get really, really nasty at the HRC.

There is a lot more to play out and Clarkson, Fagan & Burt should start detailing more specifics about events if they are so adamant that the accusations are ruining their lives and they are 100% innocent. There’s no need to hide behind the confidentiality clause anymore, get specific guys.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

It seems to be the apologists claiming the coaches have been silenced... aren't they desperate to have their truth revealed? Are we going to see that? We've just had a categorical denial from Fagan - even though his mate admitted that the coaches turned up to a house to help enact a break up. so I don't see how it can be categorical - rather than a different version of events.

I suppose the issue is who does Fagan take to court at this point? Technically he doesn’t know who the players are (I’m sure he actually does, but not in the formal sense) and those players haven’t publicly accused him of anything, so he wouldn’t really have a case against them. Hawthorn nor Egan nor the AFL have admitted to leaking the report, and without proof, he’s got no case against them (I’ve not seen any evidence as to whom leaked the report). The ABC wrote an article, but proving it was defamatory would be incredibly difficult. So, TL;DR, he currently doesn’t have anyone to fight against at this point in time, so he can’t really put up.

 

[sr36]

Racism was the point of the Egan investigation and the conclusion he found. Its what had the media and social media even more-so up in arms demanding the lifetime bans for the accused.

Not because they helped a player break up with his girlfriend so he could focus more on his footy.

So you're now stepping back from your rhetoric?

Fagan certainly isnt stepping back. He came out with both barrels this evening. Called the accusers a bunch of liars.

What rhetoric am I stepping back from?

 

[Rob R]

From Robbo tonight. I have heard the same from other sources.


'The four families are almost certain to join the two other families in pursuing a hearing in the Human Rights Commission.

That will involve compulsory mediation between the families and Clarkson, Fagan and Burt, who have all denied any wrongdoing.

And if conciliation can’t be reached a hearing will be held in the Federal Court.'

It's a shame both sides had to waste six months of torment before the logical step of HRC/Courts was taken.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[KM00]

This is the expected outcome that many Aboriginal people expected from a body like the AFL. It has happened for 200 years where bodies controlled by power and greed have swept Aboriginal issues under the table. Today we are fortunate, that bodies such as the Human Rights Commission are there to ensure justice. What the AFL don't realise is that the media storm that will erupt as a result of the HRC will bring more heat on their brand than if they had dealt with it in the first place. Human Rights can make some powerful statements. These lawyers would not be advising full steam ahead to HRC without believing they will be successful.

With all due respect - what exactly is it you expected from the AFL ?

If those making accusations are not prepared to participate, and actually speak to the investigation, then nothing can be done, and no findings against the coaches or club can be made.

please note - I am not blaming the families for not participating ... I wouldnt either - but you cant blame the AFL for sweeping this under the rug, when no one will make any allegations on the record for them to look into.

I would like to give the coaches the benefit of any doubt, and beleive that whatever actions they took, were with the best of intentions and were what the beleived to be in the players best interest at the time.

Having said that - I hope the AFL did pay the families - they obviosly all had a very traumatic time during their playing days. Getting delisted, not succeeding, not being able to fit into the community/way of life as an AFL Player ... whatever happened, it was terribly difficult and whatever the circumstances - one thing is clear. The club did not help them, and they needed help.

 

[HairyO]

What rhetoric am I stepping back from?

1,000 posts in a thread on racism and youre now saying it will be about other things.

 

[Collingwoodity]

I believe 6 families are on a pathway to Human Rights supported by their legal teams.

Legal team’s website has this on front page:

What does a typical compensation claim
look like for you? ​

 

[jackolanturn]

It really is amazing how low the collective IQ of Bigfooty is some times.

So many posters claiming that the AFL disbanding their investigation (as they should have from the beginning) is proof of “innocence”.

Burts admission that events took place, couple with Fagan’s loaded statement which essentially read like “I’m innocent cause I don’t view what happened as racism” is enough alone to see this get really nasty at the HRC.

There is a lot more to play out and Clarkson, Fagan & Burt should start detailing more specifics about events if they are so adamant that the accusations are ruining their lives and they are 100% innocent.

in Australia your innocent until your proven guilty mate. The nameless people making the allegations are the ones who need to actually go into a court of law and provide facts, evidence, witnesses etc to prove that Clarkson, Fagan and Burt have done anything wrong. Until that happens they are innocent. Whether you like it or not that is our system which we all live under.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Legal team’s website has this on front page:

What does a typical compensation claim ​

look like for you? ​

And what are you suggesting?

 

[Forever North]

This was bullshit from the start. Disgruntled ex players egged on by an entourage of attention seeking lawyers, hysterical journo’s, frauds and grifters hoping to cash in. They’ve been used, dudded and left with nowhere to go. Hawthorn will probably cough up the cash so the issue goes away for them. Good luck with the human rights angle where laws, facts, evidence and context is used not ‘versions of the truth’. An ex Hawk who was there at the time and whom I know quite well told me from the onset this was complete garbage. He was interviewed by the investigators. If anything untoward had happened the senior guys, Hodge, Mitchell, Burgoyne etc would have known about it. Everyone would have. Nothing stays a secret at a footy club. Had nothing but praise for Clarko, Fagan and Burt. Hard and tough as nails but totally fair and decent. Don’t think Clarko or Fagan will pursue the matter further unless they are forced to. They’ve had enough.

 

[craffles]

in Australia your innocent until your proven guilty mate. The nameless people making the allegations are the ones who need to actually go into a court of law and provide facts, evidence, witnesses etc to prove that Clarkson, Fagan and Burt have done anything wrong. Until that happens they are innocent. Whether you like it or not that is our system which we all live under.

You’ve completely validated my point and you don’t even realise it.

Thank you.

 

[brooksnk]

All the people trying to pin Clarkson, Fagan and Burt on not telling their sides of the story - what if all the context in which their retelling would require reveals highly personal information about the complainants themselves? What if that context included drug abuse, violence...etc?

People would nail them for making those details about the lives of the complainants pubic. Now I don't know myself if this sort of context is actually there, but the rumours certainly suggest it does - and it would perfectly explain why Clarkson and Fagan are avoiding speaking their side in so far as possible. As for Burt, he has spoken somewhat, but also obviously left a whole lot of detail out and only gave a very limited account of the Zac matter.

 

[Kanga Commando]

I haven't seen Strapping Young Lad on the last 3 pages of this thread is he okay?

You will be censored for that….

oh sorry, moderated.

 

[South of the Yarra]

I haven't seen Strapping Young Lad on the last 3 pages of this thread is he okay?

What a ridiculous comment

 

[Mitchell Madness]

All the people trying to pin Clarkson, Fagan and Burt on not telling their sides of the story - what if all the context in which their retelling would require reveals highly personal information aobut the complainants themselves? What if that context included drug abuse, violence...etc?

People would nail them for making those details about the lives of the complainants pubic. Now I don't know if this sort of context is actually there, but the rumours certainly suggest they do - and it would perfectly explain why Clarkson and Fagan are avoiding doing so as much as possible. As for Burt, he has spoken somewhat, but also obviously left a whole lot of detail out and only gave a very limited account of the Zac matter.

If it goes to court, that context comes out

 

[sr36]

1,000 posts in a thread on racism and youre now saying it will be about other things.

Racism is much harder to prove than inappropriate conduct.

I think it's very likely that some very dodgy paternalistic control went on - reminiscent of much historical racism. But whether or not these guys were acting on stereotyped views or would have gone way overboard and exercised dodgy paternalistic control regardless of race is unknowable to me. Then you've got what could very easily be very dodgy gender stereotyping as well. This could get really ugly if the non-footy media starts running with it, which the AFL non-statement could easily lead to.

But regardless of the discrimination angles it smells really strongly of inappropriate conduct - Burt's supposed denial was bizarre in that he didn't actually deny the claims of Zac, but gave some supporting evidence.

 

[perplexed]

It really is amazing how low the collective IQ of Bigfooty is some times. So many posters claiming that the AFL disbanding their investigation (as they should have from the beginning) is proof of innocence. *spoiler alert, it is not.

Burts admission that the events did take place and were fiery coupled with Fagan’s loaded statement which essentially read “I’m innocent cause I don’t view what happened as racism” is enough alone to see this get really, really nasty at the HRC.

There is a lot more to play out and Clarkson, Fagan & Burt should start detailing more specifics about events if they are so adamant that the accusations are ruining their lives and they are 100% innocent. There’s no need to hide behind the confidentiality clause anymore, get specific guys.

Yeah there is some ridiculous triumphalism in here. You are right that nothing here shows innocence but wrong that the coaches should have to give specific details to deny accusations that lack details and claimants willing to provide them. Nobody should have to defend themselves against a case that isn't even being made.

 

[brooksnk]

If it goes to court, that context comes out

Sure does. And judging by Fagan's statement, he welcomes it. It would be a perfect avenue for him to share his version of events as no one could judge/pin him on publicly speaking on his version of event - albeit the fact he would have to go through civil dispute - which, I could almost guarantee you, no party on any side of the equation actually wants to.

 

[jackolanturn]

This was bullshit from the start. Disgruntled ex players egged on by an entourage of attention seeking lawyers, hysterical journo’s, frauds and grifters hoping to cash in. They’ve been used, dudded and left with nowhere to go. Hawthorn will probably cough up the cash so the issue goes away for them. Good luck with the human rights angle where laws, facts, evidence and context is used not ‘versions of the truth’. An ex Hawk who was there at the time and whom I know quite well told me from the onset this was complete garbage. He was interviewed by the investigators. If anything untoward had happened the senior guys, Hodge, Mitchell, Burgoyne etc would have known about it. Everyone would have. Nothing stays a secret at a footy club. Had nothing but praise for Clarko, Fagan and Burt. Hard and tough as nails but totally fair and decent. Don’t think Clarko or Fagan will pursue the matter further unless they are forced to. They’ve had enough.

Well said mate. Facts and evidence have prevailed. Its genuinely amazing how so many people on here refuse to see the situation for what it is and continue to shame 3 terrific people who don't have a racist bone in their body. Its even more disgusting how the media from the start gave credibility towards all this before the investigation had concluded and already made their mind up who was in the wrong. I don't get how you can automatically believe a group of nameless people who had refused to corporate from the start, have done nothing but complain about the process when the whole thing was designed to cater to their needs and started by taking their "trauma" to the ABC. As you said so many former player have denied it. No witness has come out and said anything the accusers said happened. If this played out in court the case would immediately be dismissed.