Streaming [HBO] True Detective

[Wayne Arnold]

I don't think the quality was ever in the case itself, but in the characters and quality production/direction.

Yeah, I guess you're right. The character development was the key. Marty crying at the end in front of his family (showed so much depth) and Rust looking like Jesus having seen the light. The odd couple to the end. Was ridiculous.

 

[bok_party]

At the end of the day, some people will like it, some will hate it. I thoroughly enjoyed the ending and thought it wrapped up the story itself fairly well while still leaving a few loose ends. Like Marty said, you can't get everyone but they got one piece of the puzzle.

This is what I hate about the mainstream viewers when watching media - they always want something more. That's life sometimes - things don't always get explained or go how you want.

 

[Bender_]

At the end of the day, some people will like it, some will hate it. I thoroughly enjoyed the ending and thought it wrapped up the story itself fairly well while still leaving a few loose ends. Like Marty said, you can't get everyone but they got one piece of the puzzle.

This is what I hate about the mainstream viewers when watching media - they always want something more. That's life sometimes - things don't always get explained or go how you want.

The very end was what it was supposed to be - character evolution. The case was just a bi-product of it.

 

[UpForGrabs]

They presented the idea of ritual killings, a cult, and a possible "higher power", as well as a lead character who has unusual, possibly supernatural perception/abilities, and all it really resulted in was a standard "crazy killer" ending. With the way the story was built in the early episodes, it's fair to say a lot more was to be expected from the ending.

I don't know about you, but to me Errol Childress was nowhere near a standard crazy killer. Yes he was a killer (we presume), and yes he may have been crazy, but holy hell I don't know how you could call him standard.

Was a little disappointed with the last few eps.....not that it isn't a great show but I was hoping for a more supernatural David Lynch type of direction and the last ep was kind of predictable with no jaw dropping moments

Respectfully disagree with that. There may have been different moments than from the first few episodes, but I thought it was fantastic.

 

[Damon_3388]

I don't know about you, but to me Errol Childress was nowhere near a standard crazy killer. Yes he was a killer (we presume), and yes he may have been crazy, but holy hell I don't know how you could call him standard.

I meant "standard" in the sense of how it all wrapped up. It all just boiled down to a regular find and capture of a crazy killer, when the story initially promised so much more.

That being said, considering we got zero explaination as to the killer's motives, or really what it all meant, he did become pretty simplified as just some nut by the end of it.

 

[Starburns_]

Yes, but it could have been far more, that's the point, and that's what makes it disappointing. It makes a lot of what was presented in the early episodes appear to be total bluff and total fluff in hindsight.

What stuff that was presented in the earlier episodes?

There was nothing actually supernatural about the show, it was all philosophical. There were no strange, spooky happenings, everything that happened was based within reality, the way it was interpreted by the individual characters was the point of the show. Just because Cohle's philosophical statements were never addressed as anything more than that doesn't make them any less valid or interesting.

The show never hinted at being "more" because it was never about that.

That being said, considering we got zero explaination as to the killer's motives, or really what it all meant, he did become pretty simplified as just some nut by the end of it.

Because he was one, the difference is he believed he was more than that, and that's what was central to the story, different people and different ideals.

 

[Marlowe]

There are so few shows that come close to achieving such a fine sense of craft like this. Almost as perfect as you can get for TV. It was a dark, beautiful, haunting viewing experience; I don't think much else compares. There's always something to be said when a show (or movie, book, game) leaves you wanting you more. I wouldn't change a thing. Enjoyed every minute of it.

 

[Damon_3388]

What stuff that was presented in the earlier episodes?

Umm, pretty much everything.

There was nothing actually supernatural about the show, it was all philosophical. There were no strange, spooky happenings, everything that happened was based within reality, the way it was interpreted by the individual characters was the point of the show. Just because Cohle's philosophical statements were never addressed as anything more than that doesn't make them any less valid or interesting.

The show never hinted at being "more" because it was never about that.

Well there was massive potential there for a lot more, and for it not to have been capitalised on is disappointing. Even the philosophical stuff seems like a fair bit of fluff when you consider the end point, even in terms of character development.

I liked the main characters, and their development was played well through most of it, but at the same time, I couldn't give a shit them in comparison to the case. Their development was just a distraction to me. The case and what was going on now (the questioning of the main characters, etc.) was the main point of interest for me, and I'm disappointed it ended up the way it did.

I'm sorry, you can't make so much of the show about the case, and provide such a detailed mystery, and then turn around at the end and say "Oh, the show wasn't actually about that, and you shouldn't have really been paying attention to that or cared about it". Trying to "outsmart" people as a writer with such an explaination is just wank, and discredits the series overall too IMO.

Because he was one, the difference is he believed he was more than that, and that's what was central to the story, different people and different ideals.

Come on...

Surpised at the justifications people are making here. Surely people can't be satisfied with where the case ended up, considering the scope of it all. Very rushed and very dull. It really is like they didn't know how to finish it.

EDIT: Found a post on the iMDB forums that sums up my thoughts well:

The show failed to resolve the mystery it had set up. If this cult had franchises, and killed dozens of people, then anomalies would have been noticed unless there had been some kind of cover up.

In the end, the big-brained villain is an inbred, hatchet-wielding hillbilly, the green paint clue was beyond strained, then there's a 90s style foot-chase through a property, and a "light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel" moment.

For all the soaring commentary on this board about how this show would redefine the genre, it was a pretty conventional ending, and mis-matched to the first three episodes.

It's interesting how people dutifully quoted the creator saying he wouldn't "abuse" the viewer with a twist ending. Great. Instead he larded the show with red-herrings.

 

[Starburns_]

Umm, pretty much everything.

Except there wasn't. There was no hint at the supernatural early, nothing separate from reality happened, everything in relation to that was all talk.

The closest were Rust's hallucinations, but even those were explained, and happened maybe three or four times during the entire series.

Well there was massive potential there for a lot more, and for it not to have been capitalised on is disappointing. Even the philosophical stuff seems like a fair bit of fluff when you consider the end point, even in terms of character development.

I liked the main characters, and their development was played well through most of it, but at the same time, I couldn't give a shit them in comparison to the case. Their development was just a distraction to me. The case and what was going on now (the questioning of the main characters, etc.) was the main point of interest for me, and I'm disappointed it ended up the way it did.

I'm sorry, you can't make so much of the show about the case, and provide such a detailed mystery, and then turn around at the end and say "Oh, the show wasn't actually about that, and you shouldn't have really been paying attention to that or cared about it". Trying to "outsmart" people as a writer with such an explaination is just wank, and discredits the series overall too IMO.

The show was called "True Detective", not "True Crime" or whatever. The show was about the two characters and the case was just a significant plot point.

It was even mentioned in the dialogue the pitfalls of putting things together without solid evidence and coming to misleading conclusions. People have become far too accustomed to shows and films being too clever that they just expect every show to have convoluted plotlines where nothing is as it seems.

It's just like the "detective's curse", the answer was right in front of you but you were looking at the wrong clues. It's no fault of the writers that people went crazy with speculation and set all these high concept expectations.

Surpised at the justifications people are making here. Surely people can't be satisfied with where the case ended up, considering the scope of it all. Very rushed and very dull. It really is like they didn't know how to finish it.

Most people in here appear satisfied. The only people who are disappointed seem to be the ones expecting the lazy, dull, ending where a writer does try and outsmart the viewer with some silly twist at the end, or some unnecessary supernatural rubbish that in many cases ruins the overall story.

If you were expecting "more", then maybe this show wasn't aimed at you.

 

[RobbyRoy]

I'm sorry, you can't make so much of the show about the case, and provide such a detailed mystery, and then turn around at the end and say "Oh, the show wasn't actually about that, and you shouldn't have really been paying attention to that or cared about it". Trying to "outsmart" people as a writer with such an explaination is just wank, and discredits the series overall too IMO.

But that's your reading of the show, not a fact. Regardless of the complexity and depth of the crimes and crime-solving, it's still the detectives we're following. In fact, the more detailed the crime is, the better we get to know the characters solving it, and the more rewarding their journeys. Which is what happened here.

 

[Damon_3388]

Except there wasn't. There was no hint at the supernatural early, nothing separate from reality happened, everything in relation to that was all talk.

The closest were Rust's hallucinations, but even those were explained, and happened maybe three or four times during the entire series.

The show was called "True Detective", not "True Crime" or whatever. The show was about the two characters and the case was just a significant plot point.

It was even mentioned in the dialogue the pitfalls of putting things together without solid evidence and coming to misleading conclusions. People have become far too accustomed to shows and films being too clever that they just expect every show to have convoluted plotlines where nothing is as it seems.

It's just like the "detective's curse", the answer was right in front of you but you were looking at the wrong clues. It's no fault of the writers that people went crazy with speculation and set all these high concept expectations.

Most people in here appear satisfied. The only people who are disappointed seem to be the ones expecting the lazy, dull, ending where a writer does try and outsmart the viewer with some silly twist at the end, or some unnecessary supernatural rubbish that in many cases ruins the overall story.

You're clearly misinterpreting where I'm coming from here. I never speculated or theorised, and never bought into the speculation or theorising along the way, and never really had any expectation or desire for either of the main characters to have been the ones who'd done it either.

If you were expecting "more", then maybe this show wasn't aimed at you.

Oh please...

To set up so many clues and signposts along the way, and then close things with such a generic, predictable, watered-down ending, well, that just points to poor, dull writing to me. You had a brilliant idea with a lot of potential, but you couldn't really do anything particularly meaningful or memorable with it in the end. Sure, it was a fun ride along the way, but the ending is what sticks in people's minds, and it was piss poor in comparison to the excellence that proceeded it. And for the writers to cover it by "playing dumb" and saying "we never intended for it to be anything more than a character study", etc. is just weak, and tantamount to trolling, and doesn't dissuade from the fact that the brilliant set-up was betrayed by the payoff.

 

[Powerade 08]

It made plenty of sense to me but I cant be stuffed trying to lay it all out.

Basically there were 2 groups -

The 5 men who performed "rituals" (Basically sexually abused a whole bunch of kids) in carcosa - by 2012 these guys are dead or have moved on. (Billy Lee Tuttle, cop who filed made in error reports, Errols dad tied to the bed - theres 3 of them)

Then there is Errol who was a victim of the cult, a serial killer who used the mythos of the "Yellow King" to control the people around him. Like other serial killers he wanted recognition and to eventually be caught, so he displayed bodies and left clues with help from his mate Ledoux and Dewall.

In the end Rust and Marty got their man - the guy who killed Dora Lange. The rest just isn't that important to the story.

 

[MC Bad Genius]

I really enjoyed the last episode as well as the whole season. It did seem a little unbelievable that Errol was the killer and that everyone else that was previously involved was now covering up for him. But I'm willing to forgive it that considering it was so beautifully put together. The chase through the tunnels was so drawn out and tense, we almost had to turn it off!

And I don't understand the hate for Rust's emotional breakdown. Despite how convinced he was of his beliefs, he had an incredibly harrowing experience and almost died. Then he had another experience, seemingly even more visceral. All his emotions about his daughter that he had buried with alcohol for so long he could no longer fight and admitted to the only person who could trust how broken he still was about it. Dreams often feel more realistic and powerful than reality and lots of people have had near death experiences, so for him to say that doesn't seem far-fetched or trite or whatever else to me.

 

[Wayne Arnold]

To set up so many clues and signposts along the way, and then close things with such a generic, predictable, watered-down ending, well, that just points to poor, dull writing to me. You had a brilliant idea with a lot of potential, but you couldn't really do anything particularly meaningful or memorable with it in the end. Sure, it was a fun ride along the way, but the ending is what sticks in people's minds, and it was piss poor in comparison to the excellence that proceeded it. And for the writers to cover it by "playing dumb" and saying "we never intended for it to be anything more than a character study", etc. is just weak, and tantamount to trolling, and doesn't dissuade from the fact that the brilliant set-up was betrayed by the payoff.

You've nailed it Damon. The writing was weak, in the end. I didn't expect anything supernatural and it's fine to leave questions remaining and open to interpretation. However, too much was included throughout the series which was left untouched. There needed to be some attention devoted to these parts, not necessarily a resolution. The writer kept reiterating that it was about the characters, however, to me that's a cop out. The ending was almost Hollywood like anyhow, with Rust claiming the "light is winning". Give me a break.

I guess I've got the detective's curse too.

 

[PieBeast]

We can rationalise and debate till the cows come home but most would agree that the brilliance of the first few episodes turned out to be unsustainable.

Still a great show.

 

[Damon_3388]

Just found something else interesting in discussion on the iMDB boards, from people throwing up their ideas for a more satisfying ending:

That the tape of Marie was a hoax video, and the child killings were a dark rumor used to scare children at the schools into following Tuttle's brand of fundamentalist Christianity. That Tuttle and the sheriffs let Errol, Ledoux, and other sadists sacrifice some prostitutes and pose their bodies to make those rumors believable. Basically, the Tuttles were looking to Evangelize South Louisiana by spreading rumors of satanism, and a war on the "evil all around us".

I would have been happy with that TBH. Would have remained in reality, while still incorperating a lot of what had come before, at least moreso than the ending we got did.

It did seem a little unbelievable that Errol was the killer and that everyone else that was previously involved was now covering up for him.

If the "cult" did indeed involve as many high-powered people as it supposedly did, it seems a little unbelieveable that an inbred hillbilly who had basically been discarded by their high-powered family would A) be allowed to be involved, and B) be the ringleader.

 

[grizzlym]

In way, the crime became secondary to the way the two characters developed and changed over the years. In the end, they moved closer together.

That's a take I was told today.

 

[Bender_]

In way, the crime became secondary to the way the two characters developed and changed over the years. In the end, they moved closer together.

That's a take I was told today.

That was my take:

- Marty referred to Rust as his 'friend' when talking to the cops in the hospital.
- Rust allowed himself to show his vulnerability to Marty at the very end.

Even the exchange in the car regarding the Maggie situation where I thought Rust was being a complete anus, Marty just accepted him for who/what he was, rather than getting agro like he used to.

 

[Menzel As Anything]

Plenty of victims of The Yellow King in here.

 

[Corrosion]

It made plenty of sense to me but I cant be stuffed trying to lay it all out.

Basically there were 2 groups -

The 5 men who performed "rituals" (Basically sexually abused a whole bunch of kids) in carcosa - by 2012 these guys are dead or have moved on. (Billy Lee Tuttle, cop who filed made in error reports, Errols dad tied to the bed - theres 3 of them)

Then there is Errol who was a victim of the cult, a serial killer who used the mythos of the "Yellow King" to control the people around him. Like other serial killers he wanted recognition and to eventually be caught, so he displayed bodies and left clues with help from his mate Ledoux and Dewall.

In the end Rust and Marty got their man - the guy who killed Dora Lange. The rest just isn't that important to the story.

Very well said mate.

Thought is was a terrific show throughout its entirety.

 

[wce_dyl]

Great show from the start to the end. Pretty much ticked every box for me. Thoroughly enjoyed it, episodes 4, 5 and 8 had me right on the edge of my seat.

 

[bourbons]

The show was written and filmed before all the theories came out. It was us, the viewers, who created all the mythology, not the show.

Hmm don't think you can say the viewers 'created' it. The internet defintely ran with it in a massive way they couldn't have predicted but the mythology and pieces of a bigger puzzle were all there.

To set up so many clues and signposts along the way, and then close things with such a generic, predictable, watered-down ending, well, that just points to poor, dull writing to me. You had a brilliant idea with a lot of potential, but you couldn't really do anything particularly meaningful or memorable with it in the end. Sure, it was a fun ride along the way, but the ending is what sticks in people's minds, and it was piss poor in comparison to the excellence that proceeded it. And for the writers to cover it by "playing dumb" and saying "we never intended for it to be anything more than a character study", etc. is just weak, and tantamount to trolling, and doesn't dissuade from the fact that the brilliant set-up was betrayed by the payoff.

While I wouldn't go that far, I think there is some validity in this. I remember when Lost finishied there was alot written about it really being about the characters, their journey and interactions. Well if that was the case, perhaps don't set the show on a metaphysical teleporting island and spend more time revealing mysteries and doing nothing with them, than you spend on actual character development. Not that I am putting Lost and TD in the same basket by any means, TD is far superior in my opinion, and spent at least as much time on character development as it did on the central mystery (probably more), so you did get the sense of what they were going for long before the finale. But like I said, I think there is a thread of validity in this comment. I wasn't expecting anything supernatural the but the stuff with the daughter, for example, stands out to me as an interesting idea that ultimately went no where, almost like they wanted to do something with it but then ditched it at the last moment.

 

[RobbyRoy]

Hmm don't think you can say the viewers 'created' it. The internet defintely ran with it in a massive way they couldn't have predicted but the mythology and pieces of a bigger puzzle were all there.

Yep, "ran with it" is probably the better way to put it.

 

[bourbons]

Sorry just catching up on all this discussion while pretending to work

...
There was nothing actually supernatural about the show, it was all philosophical. There were no strange, spooky happenings, everything that happened was based within reality, the way it was interpreted by the individual characters was the point of the show. Just because Cohle's philosophical statements were never addressed as anything more than that doesn't make them any less valid or interesting.

The show never hinted at being "more" because it was never about that.
...

I'd say the wormhole Rust saw was a hint towards the mythology/supernatural. I'm guessing alot are just going with it being Rust's halucination and to be honest I did too. Fits nicely with the idea of this case consuming him and being his whole 'universe' for the last few years and he has that vision when he finally reaches the 'centre' of it.

But I also like this, posted by Sal_Paradise a few pages back

I hate to spoil this for all you guys but you need to do some research on the actual book the yellow king and on Corcosa and the entire H.P. Lovecraft world.

The yellow king author was an influence on lovecraft.

Corcosa is a city on a planet in another universe, its a universe that if we visited would instantly drive us insane, (so would seeing the play "The Yellow King").

The only way to access this other universe is through ancient incantations, occult activity and performing abominations which twist our reality to the point that a gateway opens, that gateway would lead to that other universe.

What Rust saw was that gateway, chances are you have to be a bit clairvoyant to even sense it but Rust is a fairly deep and "sensitive" (as in clairvoyant) character.

I also know that the writer is ok with you thinking its not real, in fact he would prefer most people think it was a hallucination of Rusts, the "reality" of the show is that Rust saw a portal to another dimension, created from sheer pain, terror and horror beyond normal human experience but the writer knows that the underlying supernatural references might turn off the hardcore "detective" type TV watchers, in other words he wants the skeptics to remain skeptical but wants to tip the hat to the sci fi/horror lovers out there, the ones that know better.

Btw, all these ideas were also used by Clive Barker when he made Hellraiser, the idea that pain was a whole other dimension and that we could access that dimension by creating abominations, in hellraisers case it was the lament configuration, in the True Detectives case it was the occult torture and killing of people, same ideas.

It's like an each-way bet - the more grounded viewers see it as a hallucination, while the more mythological minded folk get something to hang their hat on, or at least discuss. The more I think about it the more I like it, very clever.

Still wish they had gone a little bit deeper in other areas (the daughter, the tuttles, the cult, the 'rural' interpretation of madi gras etc) but overall still a pretty epic show.

We can rationalise and debate till the cows come home but most would agree that the brilliance of the first few episodes turned out to be unsustainable.

Still a great show.

That sums it up for me in a nutshell. Was always gonna be hard for the finale to measure up to the earlier stuff considering there were quite a few of us in this thread and elsewhere on the net who considered it the best television they had ever seen. Still a masterpiece without being the mind-blowing, genre re-defining head **** that some we expecting.

 

[22 others]

Kind of disappointed with the way the last couple of episodes went. Felt a bit rushed and because they did that massive jump from 2000 to 2012 you really didn't get to see the characters slowly develop, it was put onto you in the last two episodes and you just had to take it. The ending was also pretty corny (two cops get separated chasing for a bad guy, one is about to be killed only to be saved by the other) too and Rust and Marty connecting at the end seemed very forced (mainly from Woody) and a little bit corny (It would have been more engaging if Rust died). However, it was still probably the best first season to a show I've seen.