Autopsy Heartbreaking loss to St Kilda

[mike91]

No Hill, Blakeley and Sandilands injured early in the game. We're year 2 in a 4 year rebuild. Saints could only just beat us. Bottom line, Saints are still pathetic and aren't a finals team.

 

[ydraw]

Poor Griff's probably crying himself to sleep tonight

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Savage

 

[DannyTheDoorman]

You missed a few facts along the way, Jack

The skill errors have been raised time and again and a contributing factor only. They are simply NOT the prime cause of troubles.

The skill errors are not new and are yet to be addressed by our genius coach. As an aside in last weeks gameday thread we had posters saying skill errors are irrelevant and the only thing that matters is effort.

A much larger contributing factor is an abysmal game plan, a complete lack of forward structure and forward system and a coach focusing on what he know rather than what we need. Another contributing factor has been obviously poor umpiring. If you can't see the effect that has then perhaps its beyond you but the club HAS failed to address oobvious inconsistencies where other clubs have and are reaping the benefit.

I would say that much of our skill errors are because players are not playing the game as their experience and training require but are playing to a flawed system. Its hard to get an accurate read of skill errors under those terms....and thats another fact

Hey Jack you seem to Know it All why dont you send RTB an email telling him that you know more than he does and that you could fix the problem. BTW how many AFL games have you coached? Your a poor judge if you are one of those that keeps blaming umpires or suggesting poor umpiring because of a non acceptance by you and other posters that players make more errors than umpires.

 

[Purple Jesus]

Poor Griff's probably crying himself to sleep tonight

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Poor bloke. Reiwoldt is a grade A campaigner and always has been. Longevity does not equal champion. Scumbag.

 

[imperial_oz]

Hey Jack you seem to Know it All why dont you send RTB an email telling him that you know more than he does and that you could fix the problem. BTW how many AFL games have you coached? Your a poor judge if you are one of those that keeps blaming umpires or suggesting poor umpiring because of a non acceptance by you and other posters that players make more errors than umpires.

Well it easy to see how little you have to add to the discussion apart from cheap shots.

 

[T0ecutter]

If we are honest, that Hawks team we played in 2013 ****s all over our 22 man for man but Ross got us really close.

Bottom line is our players just aren't good enough yet.

Bottom line is our players are good enough, the game plan is not. The fact that the coach refuses to change it or even fix the glaring tactical issues is an indictment on himself and the club.

That's why this loss is a Lyon sycophant's wet dream. They get to carp on about Lyon's rebuilding, Suban being a star AFL footballer, and all the 'if only' excuses.

 

[aussieviking]

Competed really well and destroyed a lot of Riewoldt's attempts at marking which gained applause from the crowd. Yeah I was a little surprised he has received so many negative comments on here as I thought he took a step forward today playing (at times) on one of the greats.

Yes he needs to fumble less but all the young guys are making an error or two but I am thrilled that we continue to play them. I am very happy for him to stay in the team.

Couldn't agree more. I thought defensively Logue was really good. He is very athletic and just needs to learn in time when to become more attacking and use his natural attributes. He will be a very solid player for many years to come but he will take a little longer than some others.

 

[Freoforever86]

Geez big footy loves coach bashing.
Our game plan has changed a crap load, we just aren't skilled enough yet to execute it. We're not too far off, that kick will start paying off. We play a similar style to the dogs, but without a true HBF that can control the game. Hughes looked like that player yesterday and Conor the week before. We play on a lot and try cut inside, which is the kick we missed countless times yesterday. If we hit that kick were absolutely away.

When a team gets i50 against any AFL team, the defense presses up to lock the ball in. The forwards naturally follow them, they have to otherwise easy mark and repeat i50s. This is the reason we have players outside so often, because we're allowing too many i50s atm.

People just love to bash Ross for anything. Oh he's put 2 spare back with a min left in the 3rd, why not attack more? Well there's a min left and were up by a small margin, locking it down for the quarter sounds like pretty smart coaching to me to keep that lead. How many teams haven't done that this season and see the other team go on to win. Happens every week.

 

[Dump Truck]

I just can't fathom how people are so pissed off about losing a close, finals like game with such a young, inexperienced team first year into a rebuild. We lost Sandi in the first 10 minutes, Cox (who was playing well) for the second half and Sheridan (who also was actually playing ok) was proppy as hell. Sure, we made a lot of mistakes, but we win and then the saints mistakes are scrutinised more.

We didn't have S.Hill and Blakely as well, both who would make a difference. Yeah, there are negatives to take out of this, but also a lot of positives.

 

[Dormammu]

Wasn't it Margett that totally missed Ballantyne getting punched in the guts 5 metres away from him and then instead of giving him a 50 from the goal line later in the quarter reversed the kick and lost total control of the situation?

I listened to the incident through Sportsears, he booked Stevens on the spot and was yelling this to the players. Things settled down a bit and when the Saints flared up we got the 50. He gave several warnings to our players to cool it and when one in particular wouldn't (not too sure who) it was reversed.

In subsequent exchanges he was filthy towards the player saying he (the player) did not need to do what he did.

And in another exchange one of the other umpires (Deboy?) asked "who is number #38 for Fremantle?" and Margetts quickly edumacated him.

 

[Sweetback]

I used to have a lot of sympathy for Reiwoldt. That's surprisingly all dried up now.

 

[E Shed]

I just can't fathom how people are so pissed off about losing a close, finals like game with such a young, inexperienced team first year into a rebuild. We lost Sandi in the first 10 minutes, Cox (who was playing well) for the second half and Sheridan (who also was actually playing ok) was proppy as hell. Sure, we made a lot of mistakes, but we win and then the saints mistakes are scrutinised more.

We didn't have S.Hill and Blakely as well, both who would make a difference. Yeah, there are negatives to take out of this, but also a lot of positives.

Exactly this. I thought for where we are in rebuilding and the amount of inexperienced players who haven't played together before we were excellent at times. Sure there were some howlers but its such a fast and unforgiving game these days it only needs to a few minor skill errors for things to unravel.
So much to like about Cox, Darcy, Hughes while Ryan & Logue are building ok. Its between the ears for Logue as he is panicking a bit with the ball. His instinctive play and competitive instincts are fine but it remains to be seen if he can slow down a bit and make better decisions. Very early days and Ross seemed pleased with him in his presser.
We are playing excellent attacking footy when it clicks. Our best player Fyfe is still miles off his best and we are competitive. If you take Dangerfield out of Geelong at the moment they wouldn't be anywhere near top of the ladder and we know Fyfe can be similarly influential.
One the down side we may have seen the end come very quickly for Sandi however we have uncovered a most excellent your prospect in Darcy.
Interesting times & I'm really enjoying watching at the moment. Losing is probably going to be better in the long term as its going to give us an opportunity at another genuinely elite player in the draft this year. Blakely, Bennell, A Pearce all A graders on the sidelines as well as Langdon, Balic, DeLuca who could all be handy.

 

[malpaso]

I'm enjoying watching our games at the moment, young kids, veterans mixing it up, weeding out players (Sherro, Pearce). It's all happening..

On top of that, we are in these games which is fantastic!

Love what I see in Cox, Logue, Darcy, Tucker, Weller, Hughes, Grey. McCarthy and Kersten will be fine as well if WE COULD GET A GENUINE GORILLA TO HOLD DOWN FULL FORWARD!

Good times.

 

[StingBitten]

Negatives

- Too many turnovers
- Too many Fremantle players spoiling each other
- Forward structure

Positives

- In two years, I think we have turned Weller, Blakely and Hughes into elite footballers. Tucker, Grey and Ryan will be ready to soon to make the jump to this level.
- Darcy and Cox are indicators that the coaching team aren't all that bad at drafting. Their immediate impact at AFL level has been nothing short of mind-boggling... they are 1st year players...
- Hamling is the trade of the year, for any club. B. Hill will get better.
- Walters is a revelation in midfield and seriously challenges a few for being the premier small-forward. He's coming up to winning his first Doig, and should crack the AA team this year if he continues his stellar form (has he done this before?)

A lot to like, a lot that needs to change (more up at the coaching box I think). We're getting better.

 

[noise36]

And? That makes no difference at all considering the rule states it has to go back to the player on the full.

You think they give out 50s every time it doesn't? Bad umpiring is about inconsistencies ...rarely about actual rules.

See HtB or incorrect disposal.

 

[fnerd]

If you don't like those final minute tactics then you better hope Lyon's replacement doesn't come from any of the other 17 existing coaches as they all do the same thing.

Seriously, we are year 1 in a 4 year (estimated rebuild). We are not expected to win all the time or be perfect. We will make mistakes, get caught out of position etc a LOT until the side is more experienced. PLENTY of other sides have the exact same problem with noone to kick to in the forward half after regaining possession. That is modern footy and not some Lyon created mess.

Of the 9 games this round, ours was the 4th highest scoring...in year 1 of the build, with two absolute sodas thrown away by Brady and Brennan and with no key forwards. Heaps of teams are low scoring. Playing champaign footy without the cattle is just asking for beltings.

Blows my mind that people actually think our gameplan should be clicking right now. If it was, what is the point of the rebuild?

Good post.
Yep lyon certainly has his flaws and I do think he could run 5/6 man fwd lines a bit more (if only to hold some sort of structure fwd of the ball at certain times in games...but like you say and ive felt all along , we just dont have the cattle atm to do it regularly

I shake my head when people eg last week were bemoaning lyons apparent shutdown or 'trying to save the game' so called tactics when geelong had a run on(like its that simple anyway and he's some sort of chess master dictating all the plays of the game)

Of course he would've wanted us to still attack but I dont think many on here give enough credit to opposition sides(particularly to decent ones) and the leagues 'overall defensive mechanisms virtually all teams are implementing now in being able to pin sides in the fwd 50 , especially with a run on.(just have a look at the number of sides giving up big leads etc,or not scoring much but its just ol rossy who employs defensive tatics yeah?-case in point bolten's carlton are1 of the most defensive sides going around but he gets lauded for it...while lyon lambasted

To gain something in attack you have to give something up in defence. ..its basic theory.
When geelong had that run on and the if team didnt go into a 'defensive mode' and rather a shoot out we wouldve been blown off the park 100% and no hope of chance of winning with the last kick.
Or perhaps thats what people wanted?..and then they d be whinging how we're getting blown off the park and not being competitive in any games..
The biggest irony is some supporters trash and bemoan our lack of fwd options/talent..namely kpf and true fwds yet people advocate going 'shoot outs' with other teams with our curent inexperienced fwd line?? ...lol we would nt even be competitive.
But as long as we're scoring more ey?...she' ll be right!

 

[Joao]

Good post.
Yep lyon certainly has his flaws and I do think he could run 5/6 man fwd lines a bit more (if only to hold some sort of structure fwd of the ball at certain times in games...but like you say and ive felt all along , we just dont have the cattle atm to do it regularly

I shake my head when people eg last week were bemoaning lyons apparent shutdown or 'trying to save the game' so called tactics when geelong had a run on(like its that simple anyway and he's some sort of chess master dictating all the plays of the game)

Of course he would've wanted us to still attack but I dont think many on here give enough credit to opposition sides(particularly to decent ones) and the leagues 'overall defensive mechanisms virtually all teams are implementing now in being able to pin sides in the fwd 50 , especially with a run on.
To gain something in attack you have to give something up in defence. ..its basic theory.
When geelong had that run on and the if team didnt go into a 'defensive mode' and rather a shoot out we wouldve been blown off the park 100% and no hope of chance of winning with the last kick.
Or perhaps thats what people wanted?..and then they d be whinging how we're getting blown off the park and not being competitive in any games..
The biggest irony is some supporters trash and bemoan our lack of fwd options/talent..namely kpf and true fwds yet people advocate going 'shoot outs' with other teams with our curent inexperienced fwd line?? ...lol we would nt even be competitive.
But as long as we're scoring more ey?...she' ll be right!

Top post.

You are right, people WILL complain regardless of the method unless we win every game. I am sure you could find melts on the Hawks board during 2013-2015.

Many seem to have massive difficulties separating emotion from logic when analysing our performance. I think we are tracking beautifully for ~2020.

 

[fnerd]

Top post.



Many seem to have massive difficulties separating emotion from logic when analysing our performance. I think we are tracking beautifully for ~2020.

So much this!

 

[_F7_]

Of the 9 games this round, ours was the 4th highest scoring...in year 1 of the build, with two absolute sodas thrown away by Brady and Brennan and with no key forwards. Heaps of teams are low scoring. Playing champaign footy without the cattle is just asking for beltings.

This crossed my mind when I was catching up on the Saturday night scores on Sunday morning. Bar one match, the scores were so low/average I took a screen shot.

Does anyone have stats on the average scores this year? If this round is anything to go by, even the elite teams are only kicking 10 or 11 goals to win when they come up against quality.

Considering we're so young and early stages rebuild, I don't think being bottom four for scoring is a problem at all as long as we're competitive. But I wonder how far we are off the mark?

 

[Sweetback]

I think these accounts belong to the same person.

 

[Taylor]

There are 34 accounts that have used that IP address, one of which was the last 5 minutes

 

[Joao]

This crossed my mind when I was catching up on the Saturday night scores on Sunday morning. Bar one match, the scores were so low/average I took a screen shot.

Does anyone have stats on the average scores this year? If this round is anything to go by, even the elite teams are only kicking 10 or 11 goals to win when they come up against quality.

Considering we're so young and early stages rebuild, I don't think being bottom four for scoring is a problem at all as long as we're competitive. But I wonder how far we are off the mark?

Fingernail deep analysis here, but average score (overall - all teams) for the last 10 years.

2017 - 13.1g 11.8b
2016 - 12.8g 11.3b
2015 - 12.5g 11.0b
2014 - 12.5g 11.4b
2013 - 13.4g 11.8b
2012 - 13.3g 11.9b
2011 - 13.4g 11.9b
2010 - 13.0g 11.8b
2009 - 13.2g 11.3b
2008 - 14.1g 12.4b

So 90.4 points is the average scores this year. Higher than the last 3 years but lower or similar than all of Ross' grand final appearance years interestingly enough.

We are kicking 11.1g 10.1b this year = 76.7 points per game. A couple of goals down of the average. I can live with that, we have no forward targets.

 

[PapaJ]

I listened to the incident through Sportsears, he booked Stevens on the spot and was yelling this to the players. Things settled down a bit and when the Saints flared up we got the 50. He gave several warnings to our players to cool it and when one in particular wouldn't (not too sure who) it was reversed.

In subsequent exchanges he was filthy towards the player saying he (the player) did not need to do what he did.
...

Not 100%, but I believe it was Grey.

 

[_F7_]

Fingernail deep analysis here, but average score (overall - all teams) for the last 10 years.

2017 - 13.1g 11.8b
2016 - 12.8g 11.3b
2015 - 12.5g 11.0b
2014 - 12.5g 11.4b
2013 - 13.4g 11.8b
2012 - 13.3g 11.9b
2011 - 13.4g 11.9b
2010 - 13.0g 11.8b
2009 - 13.2g 11.3b
2008 - 14.1g 12.4b

So 90.4 points is the average scores this year. Higher than the last 3 years but lower or similar than all of Ross' grand final appearance years interestingly enough.

We are kicking 11.1g 10.1b this year = 76.7 points per game. A couple of goals down of the average. I can live with that, we have no forward targets.

Interesting, thanks for that. So we're 2 goals a game off being average. I wonder what numbers the top 8 / top 4 sides put up? And as a comparison, when playing each other. If I get time I might look that up.

As for Freo's scoring average this year (which admittedly is bad), I find it hard to read as it's probably skewed by our wildly inconsistent year. Obviously you can't be selective with stats, but going forward I'd say we won't have multiple near-100 point thrashings where we hardly get near the ball, let alone the big sticks.

 

[Joao]

Interesting, thanks for that. So we're 2 goals a game off being average. I wonder what numbers the top 8 / top 4 sides put up? And as a comparison, when playing each other. If I get time I might look that up.

As for Freo's scoring average this year (which admittedly is bad), I find it hard to read as it's probably skewed by our wildly inconsistent year. Obviously you can't be selective with stats, but going forward I'd say we won't have multiple near-100 point thrashings where we hardly get near the ball, let alone the big sticks.

Can't be bothered with all teams but top 3 scoring teams:

Adelaide: 16.8g 13.4b = 114.2 ppg
GWS: 14.7g 12.9b = 101.1 ppg
Port: 14.5g 14.3b = 101.3 ppg

So Adelaide is a bit of an outlier this year. Also don't think we would want to be taking their gameplan into a finals series.

We are 4 goals off the good attacking teams. That is a fair bit. But GWS and Adelaide especially have FAR superior forward line talent than us.