How do we improve our hardness?

Coona Blues

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#51
We have been preoccupied with speed, when it works it is spectacular. Finals are about pressure. The aim is to win finals.
Hardness is about personnel, attitude and desire.
We cannot play too many ouside running link players in the one team, yet Ratten has tried to fill the team with them. Yarran, Lucas, Bower, Garlett and a couple of others are predominantly outside players. The team cannot accommodate them all. While not outside only, Gibbs is not in and under.I will cop arguements about Garlett chasing and tackling, but he is a swooper, if he can't get first grab, he is too often out of the contest.
Silky skills and speed gift Yarran an unquestionable spot, there is little room for another one dimensional player.
90% of those here will not want it, but McLean must play consistently. We have too few midfielders who can get their hands on the ball under pressure. Given our list, I will take Brock's lack of speed. The midfield must be structured around him while Carrazzo is unavailable. Juddy needs more spread and less in and under. If teams want to tag Judd, Murphy, Simpson, we need an organ grinder to feed the monkeys while the others move the taggers from the vicinity of the clearances.
Players must be challenged, in their natural roles. I keep seeing Tuohy working at being a stopper, designated by the coach. He is an attcking player by nature, a potential midfield weapon. If JR has a spot in the top 22 it is in the last line of defence, he is not a 360 degree player, and has proved his worth down back. With Yarran in the backline, there is no place for Bower, we must have solid, accountable defenders.
 

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le dominateur

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#52
1. Get Hampson up forward more often especially in games where we already smashing the opposition rucks.

2. Carazzo ( Best tagger worth two players), Laidler ( Third tall, reliable player) and Yarran ( speed off half back which helps deal with other teams forward pressure) coming back will help us tremendously.

3. Bring some harder bodies into the midfield e.g Ellard, possibly Duigan ? to help with the contested ball. No point in starting to spread across the ground as well when we don't have undisputed possession of the ball. Get players throwing themselves into the contest to win the ball because its kind of disheartening to see players wait for the ball to be passed off to them while several Carlton players try to win the ball in contests where they are outnumbered 2 to 1 e.g Game against Essendon

4. Winning the midfield battle will lessen the pressure on our defensive 50 which will also result in smoother passages of play from our back half. Our work around the clearance needs to improve if we are going to win games against quality opposition.

5. Stop constantly screwing with our form by constantly moving players in and out of team whenever they play a bad game. Resting Waite last week against GWS was a mistake as he missed out on the opportunity to kick a bag for a major confidence booster.

6. Our speed is a huge advantage but Ratten doesn't seem to know what to do when teams don't allow us any space. Maybe he should get in to the coaches box so he is better placed to sort out any holes that are opening up in our structures mid game.

7. We should always come out all guns firing so teams fear to play us. Other teams should dread having to play Carlton because they know that we will contest every ball we possibly can and be absolutely merciless on the scoreboard. No point in having the players get comfortable whenever they get the lead. Game against Freo was a example of the players just doing enough to get a win instead of finishing Freo off.

8. Players should never concede easy goals like Aaron Joseph and Co did whenever we have momentum. Should be trying to break down the oppositions confidence instead of letting them back in with a goal against the tide.

9.Saints and Essendon tore us to shreds because they were confidant of beating us due to our lack of pressure and physical presence. Carlton players should be confidant in their ability to regain the lead instead of getting frustrated and making simple mistakes due to feeling pressured e.g Gibbs, Walker, Aaron Joseph

10. Not related to hardness but I believe we should keep T-bird in the side until Laidler is back. Ratten seems to have something personal against him since he keeps taking him out even after he kicked three goals against GWS. He is important structurally and is far less likely to crack under pressure due to his experience. Doesn't surprise me that in both games he has been out our defense and forward line has struggled. Not the best player but isn't afraid of the contest as he showed in the game against West Coast.
Great points, bolded one really shits me, get a good lead then relax and fail to kill off the game and then get caught up in an arm wrestle to fall over the line.
 

gbatman

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#54
I agree on lightly built footballers. I seen Bootsma who did well but thought this guy been in the AFL system for over half a year and has barely put any size and muscle. The club plays Hundred and thousands on fitness dude to get them bulked up. Six Months to 1 year if you work out you can put a good size.
I look at Bootsma two ways, our obsession with 190 odd cm players with a light frame continues and it's a big reason for our lack of onball players and out lack of quality depth of onball players and why we struggle with contest ball and clearances. Honestly we haven't had a good record at recruiting players who can play on the ball and play there well. Judd and Mclean came through trades, murphy was a number 1 pick and a no brainer, Carrazzo was a selection by our previous recruiter from another club years ago. The rest are B graders or wingers/flankers. Wayne Hughes has recruited ok but has been a failure at recruiting onballers.

The thing with Bootsma is he has talent and athleticism and will be a periferal player so being big and strong is not a real issue. He's a first yearer so being big and strong at this stage was always unlikely and to be honest I recon he's going fine. We got him late and he looks like a player so that's a win to us. Bootsma doesn't have to genetics for a good strong footballer's build and is too young yet to achieve any where near that.


The are our players who lack size and strength Armfield, Bower, Collins, Curnow, Ellard, Garlett, Gibbs, Henderson, Judd, Lucas, Simpson, Walker, Warnock and Waite. These guys aren't strong and aren't big and are easily stopped. Some make up for it by being hard at the ball, most of them are good athletes but they are built like athletes.

Judd is no where near as strong or as solid as previous years and it shows, now when he's tackled he's easily stopped. This is from his shoulder injury. Lucas and Bower have come off long term leg injuries so losing weigh might have been an option here. Walker is naturally about where he should be for his role but will never win a one on one marking contest. These are the players that need to be belted in the guy and work hard at getting stronger.
 
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Thread starter #55
Its not hardness, its structure and we had it early season and now we've lost it. .. Strangely the mids have lost it since Carrots went down. .. The forward line is dysfunctional since Walker came back and Garlett is just completely out of it. .. and our defence was the victim again last night. ..
. ..

It mostly delivery though and most of our problems are in the midfield and coping with being out numbered and spreading forward too early. ..
Both the bolded are lack of hardness as much as structure



Thing is we desperatly need to restructure with more strong talls forward of the ball but we lack those players. Would be great if Casboult, Mitchell or Rowe were fit but they arent. For some reason Hampson wasn't ever in the right spot or we just couldn't get it to him and Waite could hardly move the other night.

We basically need to completly reshape the way we play and be far less reliant on running and using space. We need to play a more contested game, find players who can play contested footy in the middle and win a lot more clearances. We need to have Mclean in and Ellard and try something different and simply bang it on the boot at clearances and set up properly for it unlike we have been.

If the opposition are going to crowd around the ball then we need to win it and get it forward out of the congestion quickly.
Bolded are hardness again

7. We should always come out all guns firing so teams fear to play us. Other teams should dread having to play Carlton because they know that we will contest every ball we possibly can and be absolutely merciless on the scoreboard. No point in having the players get comfortable whenever they get the lead. Game against Freo was a example of the players just doing enough to get a win instead of finishing Freo off.
What have they got to fear - physically from us? Mitch - but more so 2011. We are missing Carrots hard tag. Ellard should help. Our big men are fairly gentle giants. There is no Fev crashing packs.
I thought Geelong 2011 were a wonderfully balanced team. They had: Ottens big body, Pods and Hawkins hitting packs hard down forward, Chappy and Stevie J as very physical forwards, Selwood Bartel and Ling as tough bodies on the ball and they have always had solid defenders.
We have Juddy and Hammer is coming along to be a Pod/Hawkins crasher (hopefully fast enough for Juddy to still be around) Kreuze is great and will be an Ottens monster before he finishes but we could surely do with a monster forward and another chunky,tenacious, skilled on baller now
 

SeVi

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#56
Why pay so much attention to the Media?

Carlton has lost only twice - for an average margin of 27 points. In the case of Mondays game, we WON contested ball.

Thats more than what can be said about Geelong.

I don't like losing anymore than the anybody else, but I'm not keen on winning 20 H&A games and lose the Grand Final aka Collingwood circa 2011.

Ratten and co will address the tactics that seem to be working against us, and hopefully we will see a result on Sunday.
 

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#57
Why pay so much attention to the Media?

Carlton has lost only twice - for an average margin of 27 points. In the case of Mondays game, we WON contested ball.

Thats more than what can be said about Geelong.

I don't like losing anymore than the anybody else, but I'm not keen on winning 20 H&A games and lose the Grand Final aka Collingwood circa 2011.

Ratten and co will address the tactics that seem to be working against us, and hopefully we will see a result on Sunday.
Good post SeVi:thumbsu:
 

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#58
It's a sign that this thread has officially gone too far when we are lamenting the lack of bulk that Bootsma - a poster child for young ectomorphs everywhere - has put on in his six months in the system. Get a ****ing grip people.

We are missing two types of hardness - an neither have anything to do with the gym, or our hardness at the footy. The Craig Bradley type of hardness that involves running, and then running some more, and then when you are about to puke running some more again...be it to get a posession, break a line, or help out a team mate.

We are also sorely lacking the Peter Dean type of hardness that involves doing anything...anything...and once more for effect...anything...to help out a teammate. It's not about putting heads over balls, or backing into packs...its a very simple team first mentality that has been missing since our all too easy route of Collingwood. Kreuzer has it in spades. Laidler has it...Carazzo has it...and Duigan circa 2011 had it. See a pattern?
 

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#60
It's a sign that this thread has officially gone too far when we are lamenting the lack of bulk that Bootsma - a poster child for young ectomorphs everywhere - has put on in his six months in the system. Get a ****ing grip people.

We are missing two types of hardness - an neither have anything to do with the gym, or our hardness at the footy. The Craig Bradley type of hardness that involves running, and then running some more, and then when you are about to puke running some more again...be it to get a posession, break a line, or help out a team mate.

We are also sorely lacking the Peter Dean type of hardness that involves doing anything...anything...and once more for effect...anything...to help out a teammate. It's not about putting heads over balls, or backing into packs...its a very simple team first mentality that has been missing since our all too easy route of Collingwood. Kreuzer has it in spades. Laidler has it...Carazzo has it...and Duigan circa 2011 had it. See a pattern?
Ahhhh nice :thumbsu:
I like to call it "paying the price" ;)
 

40yearBLUE

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#61
It's a sign that this thread has officially gone too far when we are lamenting the lack of bulk that Bootsma - a poster child for young ectomorphs everywhere - has put on in his six months in the system. Get a ****ing grip people.

We are missing two types of hardness - an neither have anything to do with the gym, or our hardness at the footy. The Craig Bradley type of hardness that involves running, and then running some more, and then when you are about to puke running some more again...be it to get a posession, break a line, or help out a team mate.

We are also sorely lacking the Peter Dean type of hardness that involves doing anything...anything...and once more for effect...anything...to help out a teammate. It's not about putting heads over balls, or backing into packs...its a very simple team first mentality that has been missing since our all too easy route of Collingwood. Kreuzer has it in spades. Laidler has it...Carazzo has it...and Duigan circa 2011 had it. See a pattern?
That is some quality post. POTY in just rd7. Cannot echo these sentiments enough, except to add what we had just a month ago we can have again once we decided we want it.
 

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#62
Ahhhh nice :thumbsu:
I like to call it "paying the price" ;)
This is the hardness our Forwards are missing. .. Walker, Garlett and Eddie are all running to receive instead of blocking and tackling. ..

Our mids should have it, Murph, Judd, Ellard, Mitch, Simpson and Army all have showed a team first game style. .. Whether they are doing it though. ..

Our backmen should have it. .. Lachie, Duigz, Jammo and Tuohy have it in spades. ..
 

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#63
That is some quality post. POTY in just rd7. Cannot echo these sentiments enough, except to add what we had just a month ago we can have again once we decided we want it.
Exactly. This is the reason I have tipped us this week. Our problems are probably 90% mental, and I reckon the lads will do anything to arrest the mini-slide our form has taken this last month.

Kudos to Kramer1 as well for that post. Extremely well said.
 

mike ockerts

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#64
This is the hardness our Forwards are missing. .. Walker, Garlett and Eddie are all running to receive instead of blocking and tackling. ..

Our mids should have it, Murph, Judd, Ellard, Mitch, Simpson and Army all have showed a team first game style. .. Whether they are doing it though. ..

Our backmen should have it. .. Lachie, Duigz, Jammo and Tuohy have it in spades. ..
exactly clay, they all have shown at times they can do it, at the moment though to few do it, and even then its only in patches, its not coached or taught, it comes within, by way of will and want, not by thinking your team mate has your back, but by knowing you have his.
 

gbatman

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#65
The backs aren't the issue. I still think we have a strong defence that is somewhat weakened by laidler's absence but still strong. I think our forward line is better than how it has performed the last few games too. One thing, and it has been the case since football was invented is that if a team's midfield is getting beaten then it makes the best defences and attacks look second rate.

One area is the clearances. The hardest thing to defend is when a team moves the ball straight out of the center from a ball up. It means that the defence has no time to set up and that the ball will likely be delivered to a dangerous area and delivered well. It also means that the team losing the clearance has to move the ball all they way from defence to attack and this allows the opposition to set up. This is what I mean how we have been unable to play the game on our terms simply because we haven't been going forward from clearances and have been getting away with losing clearances and having the defence rebound successfully for far too long. I honestly don't see a quick fix but we sure as hell should have picked Mclean this weekend. Goes to show that I don't think our coaching staff are aware that our midfield as a whole is second rate and that's why we are falling over both in attack and defence.

I also think we are tired, physically. We work harder than other teams. Not because we are fitter or mentally willing but again because most of our attacks begin in defence rather than in the midfield. This means that every time we go to implement a forward press we are running an extra 20 to 100 meters than we should be because so often we lose the clearance, every one pushes back, we gain possession, we go forward and every one has to push forward from where they are which is often the back half to get into the press. We'd do a lot less running if the ball was going from the center to the forward line and players were pushing forward into the press from their starting positions.

A good example is the winger. If we win the clearance the winger moves from center wing to a spot about on the 50. Covers bugger all ground and stays fresh.

If we lose the clearance, the winger runs back into the defensive 50 to block the hole and help defend, we gain possession and go forward, the winger must then go from inside defencive 50, right up to his position outside the forward 50 and do it quickly or the press falls apart and fails and he cops the blame for not setting up and "spreading" well. Now can you see why losing the clearances and implementing a forward press is killing our blokes physically?

Because we are and have been losing the clearances, especially in the center, our blokes are doing twice as much running as they should have and we look tired. When you can't run because you are exhausted your clearance work gets worse, forward presses and zones don't work because players haven't go the run in the legs to quickly set up, you can't chase, run and carry and do all the fundamentals of footy. We will also finish the season poorly as we will be spent come finals.
 

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#66
It's a sign that this thread has officially gone too far when we are lamenting the lack of bulk that Bootsma - a poster child for young ectomorphs everywhere - has put on in his six months in the system. Get a ****ing grip people.

We are missing two types of hardness - an neither have anything to do with the gym, or our hardness at the footy. The Craig Bradley type of hardness that involves running, and then running some more, and then when you are about to puke running some more again...be it to get a posession, break a line, or help out a team mate.

We are also sorely lacking the Peter Dean type of hardness that involves doing anything...anything...and once more for effect...anything...to help out a teammate. It's not about putting heads over balls, or backing into packs...its a very simple team first mentality that has been missing since our all too easy route of Collingwood. Kreuzer has it in spades. Laidler has it...Carazzo has it...and Duigan circa 2011 had it. See a pattern?
Ahhhh nice :thumbsu:
I like to call it "paying the price" ;)
That is some quality post. POTY in just rd7. Cannot echo these sentiments enough, except to add what we had just a month ago we can have again once we decided we want it.
Fourthed.:thumbsu:
 

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#68
There can only be one solution to getting the hardness back in the team. Only one man can help us now.

Peter Dean.
Didn't realise he was at GWS until I saw he and SOS stroll by at our game against them. Anyone know exactly what his role is there? I always thought he'd make a good coach and wonder if he has any such ambitions.
 

Dale Gribble

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#69
The backs aren't the issue. I still think we have a strong defence that is somewhat weakened by laidler's absence but still strong. I think our forward line is better than how it has performed the last few games too. One thing, and it has been the case since football was invented is that if a team's midfield is getting beaten then it makes the best defences and attacks look second rate.

One area is the clearances. The hardest thing to defend is when a team moves the ball straight out of the center from a ball up. It means that the defence has no time to set up and that the ball will likely be delivered to a dangerous area and delivered well. It also means that the team losing the clearance has to move the ball all they way from defence to attack and this allows the opposition to set up. This is what I mean how we have been unable to play the game on our terms simply because we haven't been going forward from clearances and have been getting away with losing clearances and having the defence rebound successfully for far too long. I honestly don't see a quick fix but we sure as hell should have picked Mclean this weekend. Goes to show that I don't think our coaching staff are aware that our midfield as a whole is second rate and that's why we are falling over both in attack and defence.

I also think we are tired, physically. We work harder than other teams. Not because we are fitter or mentally willing but again because most of our attacks begin in defence rather than in the midfield. This means that every time we go to implement a forward press we are running an extra 20 to 100 meters than we should be because so often we lose the clearance, every one pushes back, we gain possession, we go forward and every one has to push forward from where they are which is often the back half to get into the press. We'd do a lot less running if the ball was going from the center to the forward line and players were pushing forward into the press from their starting positions.

A good example is the winger. If we win the clearance the winger moves from center wing to a spot about on the 50. Covers bugger all ground and stays fresh.

If we lose the clearance, the winger runs back into the defensive 50 to block the hole and help defend, we gain possession and go forward, the winger must then go from inside defencive 50, right up to his position outside the forward 50 and do it quickly or the press falls apart and fails and he cops the blame for not setting up and "spreading" well. Now can you see why losing the clearances and implementing a forward press is killing our blokes physically?

Because we are and have been losing the clearances, especially in the center, our blokes are doing twice as much running as they should have and we look tired. When you can't run because you are exhausted your clearance work gets worse, forward presses and zones don't work because players haven't go the run in the legs to quickly set up, you can't chase, run and carry and do all the fundamentals of footy. We will also finish the season poorly as we will be spent come finals.
Should have picked Mclean are you serious, we would have been beaten by St Kilda by a bigger margin. Guys like Mclean, Bower, Russell, Joseph and even Duigan all in the 22 is a disaster waiting to happen at best 1 or 2 of them could play down back or interchange. These guys should all be traded at years end to get something different or draft picks except Duigan. We should be trying out guys like Collins, Kerr, Bootsma, McCarthy etc if we need one spot to fill when injury occurs, this is what top sides do. They give Valuable experience to players that may have a future. It does not matter if they not killing it in the VFL, they get tested in the AFL for a short game off the bench or sub or full game if needed.
 

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#71
Think hardness is a mental issue rather than a physical one. We are not needing guys to go out and necessarily hit people. We are needing players to be swithched on and attacking the ball and making good decisions under pressure.So for mine it is not about including certain builds of players or players who may be agressive. It is about finding a way to reach the whole team on an emotional level so that they are more consistently switched on. Kruz is a great example of a player who seems to play with passion and dedication consistently. If every player had his capacity to do this we would almost certainly win the premiership.
 
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Thread starter #72
That is some quality post. POTY in just rd7. Cannot echo these sentiments enough, except to add what we had just a month ago we can have again once we decided we want it.
:eek: That to me sums up why we are sooooooooooo overrated - see below

Think hardness is a mental issue rather than a physical one. We are not needing guys to go out and necessarily hit people. We are needing players to be swithched on and attacking the ball and making good decisions under pressure.So for mine it is not about including certain builds of players or players who may be agressive. It is about finding a way to reach the whole team on an emotional level so that they are more consistently switched on. Kruz is a great example of a player who seems to play with passion and dedication consistently. If every player had his capacity to do this we would almost certainly win the premiership.
My OP does not dispute this - I want mentally tough players on the ball.

We had heaps of consistently passionate players when we won our premierships

Admittedly in a crunch game like Monday, we desperately missed Laidler and Carrots who like Kreuze are mentally tough (as are Juddy,Jammo,Simmo, Scotty). Robbo is tough enough but not sure if he is smart enough. I hope Tuohy and Hendo are and I think Army and Ellard are but whether this is enough only time will tell.

ps My info on Duigs is that his problem is that he has one of those bodies that is always carrying a niggle or two. Not that Jarrod is an on-field Einstien but how we let the same sort of body have 3yrs at his age is culpable
 
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Thread starter #75
Give Scotty an in and under role instead of the mopping up role is another poss but we are short on people who can win their own ball
 
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