How do we improve our hardness?

[KnobHead]

Between the Essendon & Saints' game, there was a bit of physical intimidation at the start. The opposition then seem better in settling down than our boys, who (a) after being raffled get a bit too focused on the man, and (b) ain't as committed to the ball for the rest of the game as the opposition

Also, between the Bombers & Essendon, they largely played open forward lines with a mix of allowing their small forwards, starting from the midfield, to outrun our guys, or delivering their talls pinpoint passes one-out.

There also seems to be numerous times in both games where they had 1 - 2 men waiting in the middle to receive, with no one near them. Not manning up to this level is really poor, but it's basically because (a) a little laziness but that ain't the real reason, and (b) we lose composure & panic elsewhere and double up where we don't need to, allowing their men to get free

But it all stems from the opening, obviously other clubs feel we don't settle well after physical intimidation

 

[Peete]

I think all this talk about hardness is BS.

My only concern - continues to be an inability to win clearances to advantage. Teams have figured out how to either 'shark our taps' OR stop our first touch and create a turnover.

There is an air of panic around clearances and some very hard and goo work was undone by poor decision making last night. ie we won the ball and then gave it away through incorrect decisions.

Their three smalls were allowed free run - just like ours do sometimes - that is what lost us the game - hard to win when you allow a team to score 120 points against you - so clearly something seriously wrong there.

Forward we didn't get much quality ball to the forwards.

Let the papers say what they want to say about 'hardness' that is just BS.

Get over it boys St Kilda are a good side - not a bottom 8 side. They also played the best game they have played in a long time- because this WAS a do or die game for them.

The only thing that BUGGED me about last night - was watching a player who wanted to play for us - carve us up in his first game.

 

[gbatman]

We are lightweights and I don't think we are training well enough or moulding our players in the right way for the game. We are shaping them as marathon runners, not footballers.

it's also our drafting. We have had an obsession for lightly built footballers and we still have that obsession. We have a lot of light weight running types. We literally don't have the players with the size and strength to make an impact on contests. Judd is lacking strength and size this season because of his shoulder. Ellard is too small. Simpson is not built for an inside job. Curnow is a lighter shiftable player this year. Lucas is too light and not strong enough nor is he hard at it enough. Gibbs is nowhere near the build and strength of say a Lenny Hays. Our key position players rarely win a battle of strength, Walker, Bower, Warnock, Waite, Henderson aren't strong and aren't all that well built. Murphy is our strong bodied onballer this year but can't do it on his own. Carrazzo was the other one. Garlett has no physical aspect to his game, not really strong enough to.

To be honest, the only players at this stage I would rate as being solid and strong at carlton woule be Betts, Carrazzo, Casboult, Duigan, Hampson, Laidler, Mclean, Robinson, Touhy, Watson and Yarran. Then there are guys like Russell with no idea about body use and being hard at a contest. The rest aren't all that well built and aren't all that strong. The top sides at the moment have focused on having core playres with size and strength and we have focused on having lightly built runners. Adelaide, Essendon, Geelong, St Kilda, Collingwood over this season and past seasons are reaping the rewards for having strongly built onballers who can play their role. We aren't built for tough congested football.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Round 7 was meant to be the round were we hit the number 1 spot and could almost taste a top 4 finish. But now we have dropped right back into the wolves den and teams (I feel) are starting to work us out.

Come the end of round 8, we potentially could be at the bottom end of the 8.

Beating Adelaide this week at the ground we Carlton supporters dred, will be no easy task.

I haven't been following the Northern Blues, but feel a hard bodied young Watson should be a certain call up for Bower. Bower too many times last night instead of pin pointing a 40ish meter kick, looped it in the air and it was easily picked off. The main time I remember this happening was about 4 minutes out from the end. Although we were probably never going to erase the margin the Saints had set, this loose piece of play made me cringe, more than any of Milne's goals for the night.

Ellard must play each and every week. When coming on mid way into the 3rd, kicking that goal and taking a few marks. I though, he has had nearly as many marks as the team for the night...

Carrazzo, could now be our most important player. I never thought I would say that, but his drive and shutdown/win the ball myself, style of play is what we are really lacking.

Resting Judd and Waite, in hindsight, I believe was a really bad move. I get that playing GWS is considered an easy game. But this was a huge chance to blow other teams away with a really health percentage. Waite looked asleep most of the night and Judd (although he collected 29 possessions) his silk wasn't there. He fumbled and just looked like he had to will himself into the contest rather than being his normal dominant self.

Although I am dissappointed with our performance last night and know we need to get that mongrel back that we had against Collingwood. I am not sure how we can acheive this within a week for Adelaide. Thank god Taylor Walker won't be lining up. If we lose without their main forward playing, alarm bells maybe sounding (which sounds silly only 8 rounds in).

We can get back to what we were against Collingwood, but we don't have the appropriate palyers available until midway through this year now due to injuries. Carrazzo, Laidler and Yarran (who I hope is back this week) are big inclusions for us. And Warnock is a great Ruckman. Have we been caught up in the hype of Hampson getting better in a role rather than playing Warnock (before he got injured) as our domintant ruckman??? Thornton is another that should probably get a game most weeks.

 

[rampar]

Walker needs to go into the midfield more often. He has the talent, has the fitness but has a lot of bitch about him which we are in dire need of. Who goes forward? not sure, thornton maybe ...

 

[Krooooze]

See, I don't think you can coach hardness into players. The players decide whether or not they want to go in hard for the ball. It's all in the mind of the players. A player will only go in hard for the ball if he's prepared to take the hits.

Only Judd, Ellard and Robbo are the guys you can safely say are happy to go in hard and cop a bit of force from the opposition. To a lesser extent, Simmo too, but he's more dangerous on the outside.

Guys like Murph and Gibbs prefer to stand off the packs and watch their mates do the grunt work and aren't prepared to cop one for the team. In other words, they prefer to play bruise free. It's diappointing.

 

[tonydean]

From what I saw last night guys, the biggest difference in the two sides, was structure. You look at St Kilda, they had the twin towers in Riewoldt and Kosi, Carlton had Betts and the usual short forward suspects.

I know the dogs had a small forward line for years, and sometimes it worked, but now we are developing a few key talls. I'm not coming here to troll, but when are Carlton gonna trade/recruit a tall forward? I think teams are working out that Carlton move the ball quickly and get a lot of their goals from playing keepings off and chipping the ball over the top.
Unfortunately, you guys would love to have about 2 or 3 Jarrad Waites, to play forward and back. I know Henderson has been converted into a good one on one KPD now, so the only talls are the resting rucks that go forward.

Good luck to you guys for the rest of the year, I still think Carlton can win the flag!

 

[pepalenko]

Good luck to you guys for the rest of the year, I still think Carlton can win the flag!

Not so sure that I do now.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Hardness has nothing to do with courage, so you guys can put this rubbish about Gibbs, Murph et al not having the cahones to get the hard ball away permanently, we lead hard ball gets (contested possession) in many games last year and early this year with essentially the same players. Courage is definitely not the ingredient missing when hardness is missing.

I must admit to having a chuckle at the posters saying it is fear of getting injured that stops players going in hard, these same players that have displayed countless acts of courage such as running with the flight eyes on the ball knowing they will bet crunched, or standing their ground at the front of a pack again knowing they will get crunched, including Gibbs, Duigs, Murph, Kruze, Judd, Simpson, Touhy and many others have all put their bodies on the line and we all know it.

Hardness is not about body size. Smalls and talls, skinny or solid alike can and do get bustled aside if they dont possess the same quantities of the missing ingredient as your players do no matter the body size. Conversely the smaller player often wins the pill against bigger bodied players, its part of the intrigue of our game that players of all sizes can excel, Robbie Flower would weigh less than one Kruzer leg, yet excelled, Michael Tuck another, in an era where hard men meant just that.

We already have the list we need to win a flag. They already possess the skill sets and fitness base now to challenge for a flag.

The missing ingredient is mental. The easiest word to describe it is desire. If the players on the night dont want "it" as much as their opponents they are very unlikely to win against an equally rated or superior opponent.

We use all sorts of cliches to describe desire: intent, turned up to play, wanted it more etc.

Whatever it is that turns this ingredient on and off is a mystery. But whatever it is we need to get it back or we are going nowhere. The most talented list in the competition wont get anywhere near it if they dont have the desire to. Its what lies at the base of the saying a team of champions will never beat a champion team.

 

[I bleed Blue]

Ok so we were beaten in the contested ball again. Yes there are a couple of players that could probably improve their hardness and attack on the ball, but this isnt our only problem.

Our list has not changed from last year, and no one was calling us soft or saying we needed to improve our hardness last year. In fact last year one thing we prided ourselves on was our "ruthlessness".

This tells me its a mental thing at the moment. The players know, and everyone of us here knows that they can play that ruthless style when they want to, ala the pies game this year(which is why seeing performances like last night just so infuriating). So why the **** isnt it happening at the moment that is the question. And I just dont have the answer for that right now. Carrots is injured and he is a clearance machine, but 4 weeks ago everyone was spruking how much depth we have. Guess what Carlton somone has to step up and play Carrots role whilst he is injured.

Last year we were working our way up the ladder and hunting teams every week. This year other teams are coming after us. Carlton need to get back to the mindset of last year and I want to see the ruthlessness week in week out from now on.

Football is evolving so fast these days. Maybe with the extra expectations this year other clubs have figured out how to stop our game plan. If thats the case we need to try something different, and we also need a plan B incase a game isnt going our way. Now im not a coach so I dont know what the answer is but this is what our coaching staff are paid the big bucks for.

So basicly for me it comes down to 2 things-

A) Our game plan has been worked out and we need to adapt

B) A mental issue. As I said no changes to our list or game plan so why are we not as ruthless as last year



One last thing. Injuries obviously have played their part and we are realising how important Carrazzo and Laidler are to our team, but injuries are inevitable and we need to be able to deal with them. If we are really a top 4 side we should have players who can step up and do the job one someone goes down with an injury.

You are better than this Blues, what ever the problem is sort it out quick smart. We cant afford to drop any more of these types of games.

 

[No1Suspect]

You cant teach courage.

You have to instill it; generally by making the person more scared of letting his mates down than of injury/ pain. And the players need to want it.

This current mob needs to be flogged. Harshly.

Im serious. More than a few blokes in our 'best 22' need a serious kick up the ass.

 

[blue healer]

From what I saw last night guys, the biggest difference in the two sides, was structure. You look at St Kilda, they had the twin towers in Riewoldt and Kosi, Carlton had Betts and the usual short forward suspects.

I know the dogs had a small forward line for years, and sometimes it worked, but now we are developing a few key talls. I'm not coming here to troll, but when are Carlton gonna trade/recruit a tall forward? I think teams are working out that Carlton move the ball quickly and get a lot of their goals from playing keepings off and chipping the ball over the top.
Unfortunately, you guys would love to have about 2 or 3 Jarrad Waites, to play forward and back. I know Henderson has been converted into a good one on one KPD now, so the only talls are the resting rucks that go forward.

Good luck to you guys for the rest of the year, I still think Carlton can win the flag!

So very true and has been going on since Fev went but didn't work then because we were too Fev conscious.

We have tried in the last few years with Mitchell, Watson and Rowe but have come up blank, mainly through injuries.

I still don't think Hampson spends enough time at FF and if he does we don't seem to try to get it to him often enough.

Have said, ad nauseum, that we must play Thornton as a third tall in the forward line but seem to have trouble getting many on this board to agree let alone the m/c. He may not be much of a solution in future years but IMO he's the best we have available ATM.

 

[opinionsansfact]

I think we spread a little bit too early. It's a real strength when we're winning the ball but when we're getting smashed a few blokes just have to stay in the contest a bit longer

 

[opinionsansfact]

Also curnow is a bit stagnant at stoppages. Gets wrapped up immediately because he's standing still

 

[Jabba73]

One thing I noticed with both losses this season. When our players are being held, scragged, hit off the ball, we look to the umpires to pay a free kick, as they are meant to do. Guess what, it aint happening. We need to find a way to deal with this problem rather than expecting the umpires to be watching for it all the time.

I am not advocating hitting players off the ball (might make exceptions for Milne, Ballantyne) however we need to make it quite clear to the opposition players we will not tolerate them playing outside the rules to deny us the ball.

The options are to keep going in harder and harder until something has to give or we really make an issue of it with the infringing player, so it can't be ignored.

In a thread about hardness, if Thornton is our answer, we are asking the wrong question.

The last few minutes of the third quarter was what I would love to see from our boys for the rest of the season.

 

[The Coach]

Hardness has nothing to do with courage, so you guys can put this rubbish about Gibbs, Murph et al not having the cahones to get the hard ball away permanently, we lead hard ball gets (contested possession) in many games last year and early this year with essentially the same players. Courage is definitely not the ingredient missing when hardness is missing.

I must admit to having a chuckle at the posters saying it is fear of getting injured that stops players going in hard, these same players that have displayed countless acts of courage such as running with the flight eyes on the ball knowing they will bet crunched, or standing their ground at the front of a pack again knowing they will get crunched, including Gibbs, Duigs, Murph, Kruze, Judd, Simpson, Touhy and many others have all put their bodies on the line and we all know it.

Hardness is not about body size. Smalls and talls, skinny or solid alike can and do get bustled aside if they dont possess the same quantities of the missing ingredient as your players do no matter the body size. Conversely the smaller player often wins the pill against bigger bodied players, its part of the intrigue of our game that players of all sizes can excel, Robbie Flower would weigh less than one Kruzer leg, yet excelled, Michael Tuck another, in an era where hard men meant just that.

We already have the list we need to win a flag. They already possess the skill sets and fitness base now to challenge for a flag.

The missing ingredient is mental. The easiest word to describe it is desire. If the players on the night dont want "it" as much as their opponents they are very unlikely to win against an equally rated or superior opponent.

We use all sorts of cliches to describe desire: intent, turned up to play, wanted it more etc.

Whatever it is that turns this ingredient on and off is a mystery. But whatever it is we need to get it back or we are going nowhere. The most talented list in the competition wont get anywhere near it if they dont have the desire to. Its what lies at the base of the saying a team of champions will never beat a champion team.

What I have highlighted is the origin of hardness. See Jabba's post Below on mental hardness

One thing I noticed with both losses this season. When our players are being held, scragged, hit off the ball, we look to the umpires to pay a free kick, as they are meant to do. Guess what, it aint happening. We need to find a way to deal with this problem rather than expecting the umpires to be watching for it all the time.

I am not advocating hitting players off the ball (might make exceptions for Milne, Ballantyne) however we need to make it quite clear to the opposition players we will not tolerate them playing outside the rules to deny us the ball.

The options are to keep going in harder and harder until something has to give or we really make an issue of it with the infringing player, so it can't be ignored.

In a thread about hardness, if Thornton is our answer, we are asking the wrong question.

The last few minutes of the third quarter was what I would love to see from our boys for the rest of the season.

I love this Jabba - we have got to become angry but not ruffled, even an angry ant can be ferocious. A couple of olden days footballers who hate the opposition like Fraser Brown and Jimmy Buckly did, would not go astray but nowadays that might be too much to expect as they almost seem to see them as semi-colleagues who share the same profession. We need Sticks or someone to teach them about hating or at least hating to lose. It is not as if they are teachers who should appreciate the teachers from the neighbouring school - they are playing a physical game where the other team have players who wish to hurt you or at least lower your colours.

Yeah - the more I think about it, it would seem to be a leadership/culture thing. How determined are we to achieve our goals?

It would seem that Aaron Hamill and Maxie Hudghton are helping Waters in this respect down at the Aints

 

[goreds]

I think we spread a little bit too early. It's a real strength when we're winning the ball but when we're getting smashed a few blokes just have to stay in the contest a bit longer

Great post...

Here is the major problem. The way to beat Carlton is numbers around the stoppages, the 'plus 1/2' if you like... This is how the game is evolving and it's to stop our outside game from hitting top pace...

The only way to beat it is for the ruckman to clear the area or bigger bodies at the stoppages a la Bombers...

We are more skillful than all the teams but it's no use if we can't get our hands on it...

Murphy will now be tagged every week, count on it...!

 

[gbatman]

Teams are making sure to get numbers around the ball and at quite a wide radius around stoppages. They realise our strength is being out in the open in space so simply they don't allow open space outside of stoppages. Kind of like a zone of about a 20 meter radius around the stoppages etc. This means we just have to win a lot of hard ball and kick long, direct and blindly (Brett Ratten style) our of the stoppages and bye pass all the handball and running with the ball except we are so bloody weak at winning this ball we just aren't doing it and our forwards are that poor in the air that when we occasionally do get it going forward we aren't good enough in the air to bring it down or mark it.

We need a different game plan that involves a good strong tall player 1 kick in front of the play, smalls set up properly around him and a few good strong players around the ball. Get this going and the run will come back into our game too. We are too dependant on running and it's too easy to shut down.

 

[Big Red is back]

Do not know what has happened to out structure.
Especially tonight.
Where are the kicks long into our forward 50 directed to Hammer/Waite/Kreuz with Betts or Garlett hanging off ready to crumb the ball.

Hardness wasn't issue structure was.

 

[Claypigeon]

Its not hardness, its structure and we had it early season and now we've lost it. .. Strangely the mids have lost it since Carrots went down. .. The forward line is dysfunctional since Walker came back and Garlett is just completely out of it. .. and our defence was the victim again last night. ..

Do not know what has happened to out structure.
Especially tonight.
Where are the kicks long into our forward 50 directed to Hammer/Waite/Kreuz with Betts or Garlett hanging off ready to crumb the ball.

It is hard to put the finger on. .. I watched Kreuzer, Hammer and Waite constantly going up against 2 men. ..

Kreuzer was constantly held by one of them and even pulled off the ball in a 3 on 1 at one point. ..

Waite couldn't handle the two on one as the one would just block his run. ..

It mostly delivery though and most of our problems are in the midfield and coping with being out numbered and spreading forward too early. ..

 

[gbatman]

Thing is we desperatly need to restructure with more strong talls forward of the ball but we lack those players. Would be great if Casboult, Mitchell or Rowe were fit but they arent. For some reason Hampson wasn't ever in the right spot or we just couldn't get it to him and Waite could hardly move the other night.

We basically need to completly reshape the way we play and be far less reliant on running and using space. We need to play a more contested game, find players who can play contested footy in the middle and win a lot more clearances. We need to have Mclean in and Ellard and try something different and simply bang it on the boot at clearances and set up properly for it unlike we have been.

If the opposition are going to crowd around the ball then we need to win it and get it forward out of the congestion quickly.

 

[BM123]

1. Get Hampson up forward more often especially in games where we already smashing the opposition rucks.

2. Carazzo ( Best tagger worth two players), Laidler ( Third tall, reliable player) and Yarran ( speed off half back which helps deal with other teams forward pressure) coming back will help us tremendously.

3. Bring some harder bodies into the midfield e.g Ellard, possibly Duigan ? to help with the contested ball. No point in starting to spread across the ground as well when we don't have undisputed possession of the ball. Get players throwing themselves into the contest to win the ball because its kind of disheartening to see players wait for the ball to be passed off to them while several Carlton players try to win the ball in contests where they are outnumbered 2 to 1 e.g Game against Essendon

4. Winning the midfield battle will lessen the pressure on our defensive 50 which will also result in smoother passages of play from our back half. Our work around the clearance needs to improve if we are going to win games against quality opposition.

5. Stop constantly screwing with our form by constantly moving players in and out of team whenever they play a bad game. Resting Waite last week against GWS was a mistake as he missed out on the opportunity to kick a bag for a major confidence booster.

6. Our speed is a huge advantage but Ratten doesn't seem to know what to do when teams don't allow us any space. Maybe he should get in to the coaches box so he is better placed to sort out any holes that are opening up in our structures mid game.

7. We should always come out all guns firing so teams fear to play us. Other teams should dread having to play Carlton because they know that we will contest every ball we possibly can and be absolutely merciless on the scoreboard. No point in having the players get comfortable whenever they get the lead. Game against Freo was a example of the players just doing enough to get a win instead of finishing Freo off.

8. Players should never concede easy goals like Aaron Joseph and Co did whenever we have momentum. Should be trying to break down the oppositions confidence instead of letting them back in with a goal against the tide.

9.Saints and Essendon tore us to shreds because they were confidant of beating us due to our lack of pressure and physical presence. Carlton players should be confidant in their ability to regain the lead instead of getting frustrated and making simple mistakes due to feeling pressured e.g Gibbs, Walker, Aaron Joseph

10. Not related to hardness but I believe we should keep T-bird in the side until Laidler is back. Ratten seems to have something personal against him since he keeps taking him out even after he kicked three goals against GWS. He is important structurally and is far less likely to crack under pressure due to his experience. Doesn't surprise me that in both games he has been out our defense and forward line has struggled. Not the best player but isn't afraid of the contest as he showed in the game against West Coast.

 

[jezzatigerbrent]

11.and mb long kicks like Touhy..actually do as Hurn does for WC & belt it 70mtrs into the ''hot spot'' 15 mtrs out

 

[Dale Gribble]

We are lightweights and I don't think we are training well enough or moulding our players in the right way for the game. We are shaping them as marathon runners, not footballers.

it's also our drafting. We have had an obsession for lightly built footballers and we still have that obsession. We have a lot of light weight running types. We literally don't have the players with the size and strength to make an impact on contests. Judd is lacking strength and size this season because of his shoulder. Ellard is too small. Simpson is not built for an inside job. Curnow is a lighter shiftable player this year. Lucas is too light and not strong enough nor is he hard at it enough. Gibbs is nowhere near the build and strength of say a Lenny Hays. Our key position players rarely win a battle of strength, Walker, Bower, Warnock, Waite, Henderson aren't strong and aren't all that well built. Murphy is our strong bodied onballer this year but can't do it on his own. Carrazzo was the other one. Garlett has no physical aspect to his game, not really strong enough to.

To be honest, the only players at this stage I would rate as being solid and strong at carlton woule be Betts, Carrazzo, Casboult, Duigan, Hampson, Laidler, Mclean, Robinson, Touhy, Watson and Yarran. Then there are guys like Russell with no idea about body use and being hard at a contest. The rest aren't all that well built and aren't all that strong. The top sides at the moment have focused on having core playres with size and strength and we have focused on having lightly built runners. Adelaide, Essendon, Geelong, St Kilda, Collingwood over this season and past seasons are reaping the rewards for having strongly built onballers who can play their role. We aren't built for tough congested football.

I agree on lightly built footballers. I seen Bootsma who did well but thought this guy been in the AFL system for over half a year and has barely put any size and muscle. The club plays Hundred and thousands on fitness dude to get them bulked up. Six Months to 1 year if you work out you can put a good size.

 

[Jabba73]

I agree on lightly built footballers. I seen Bootsma who did well but thought this guy been in the AFL system for over half a year and has barely put any size and muscle. The club plays Hundred and thousands on fitness dude to get them bulked up. Six Months to 1 year if you work out you can put a good size.

You are absolutely correct for once. It is quite possible to change your body shape in about 6 months.

Two points I would make though.
1. The kid is just that, a kid. It will take longer than a full grown man to change his body shape, so 6 months is not going to be long enough to turn him into a monster.
2. We still need him to run. He could bulk up quicker if he was planning on a career in body building not athletics, and cardio was no longer an issue.

The reason we pay the fitness dude so much is we want a cross between Arnie and Usain Bolt. Not going to happen in 6 months with a kid who hasn't even finished growing yet.