Opinion How much of Alistair Clarkson's success at Hawthorn was actually due to Chris Fagan

[Bucking Bronco]

44% win rate in the years at Hawthorn when Fagan wasn't there from 2005-2007 & 2017-2021.

72% win rate in the years when Fagan was there from 2008-2016.

Went 1-3 in finals without Fagan with 0 premierships, and 15-7 with Fagan, and 4 premierships.

His coaching at North has been absolutely awful, while Fagan has one of the highest win percentages of senior coaches since 2017 when he took over at Brisbane

 

[HairyO]

Also, how lucky was Fagan to join at the time we had built up a good team?

Fagan took more years to get Brisbane good than Clarko took to get Hawthorn good. Fagan has also gone backwards at Brisbane. Only a 60% win rate there.

 

[Cyclops]

Is this an AI generated thread? Please can we ban this slop.

 

[MF]

Is this an AI generated thread? Please can we ban this slop.

What about this strikes you as AI generated?

 

[Bucking Bronco]

Also, how lucky was Fagan to join at the time we had built up a good team?

Fagan took more years to get Brisbane good than Clarko took to get Hawthorn good. Fagan has also gone backwards at Brisbane. Only a 60% win rate there.

Clarkson's win rate at North is 16%, while Fagan's at Brisbane is 59%.

Brisbane were considered to be equally as hopeless when Fagan took over as North was when Clarkson took over.

Fagan went 5 wins, 5 wins, 16 wins in his first 3 years.

Clarkson has gone 3 wins, 3 wins, 5 wins.

The difference between the 2 of them has been huge.

No one can justify how the team North fielded most weeks this year can only win 5 games.

He can't appear to coach

 

[Plugger46]

I mean he won an SANFL flag and was with Poort in 2004 when they won I believe?

Hawthorn drafted a very good core and traded in some players who went to another level

Brisbane essentially did the same drafted a really good core and found players to bring in who went to another level but the attraction of not being in a football fishbowl would be key now as well.

Sometimes building a team is about luck in my honest opinion but when you have 8 teams to choose from in the one state it probably makes it hard to attract players?
Hawthorn had a rich history (well have for the last 60 years)

Where as North Melbourne probably haven't. Apologies if some disagree with that but I think outside of the 90s when the king was playing they've pretty well been irrelevant.

My only other thing with North is there recruiting seems to be getting the best available player which is always just midfielders and really how many of them have gone on to dominate?

 

[HairyO]

Clarkson's win rate at North is 16%, while Fagan's at Brisbane is 59%.

Brisbane were considered to be equally as hopeless when Fagan took over as North was when Clarkson took over.

Fagan went 5 wins, 5 wins, 16 wins in his first 3 years.

Clarkson has gone 3 wins, 3 wins, 5 wins.

The difference between the 2 of them has been huge.

No one can justify how the team North fielded most weeks this year can only win 5 games.

He can't appear to coach

Clarko was absent for a fair chunk of one of the years. I think 2026 is the year the Roos will expect big improvements from the team. There is now a lot of experience there.

 

[Bucking Bronco]

Also, how lucky was Fagan to join at the time we had built up a good team?

Fagan took more years to get Brisbane good than Clarko took to get Hawthorn good. Fagan has also gone backwards at Brisbane. Only a 60% win rate there.

How do u explain Hawthorn never winning a final after Fagan left in 2016.

As soon as Fagan leaves in 2016, Clarkson has 5 seasons without winning a final, and is ultimately sacked at the end of that 5th season.

He then goes to North who outside of West Coast (14%), have the worst win rate in the league (16%) over the last 3 years since he's been there.

Chris Scott has never gone more than a season without winning a final, Clarkson has gone 8 in a row.

In fact in the 11 seasons that he hasn't been able to work with Fagan, he has only had 1 season where he won a final (and it was only 1 final).

Was Chris Fagan massively responsible for his success or not?

 

[Golumless]

No. Clarko was a great coach who's the latest to find out that everyone has an expiration date.

 

[Chip Scab1]

How do u explain Hawthorn never winning a final after Fagan left in 2016.

As soon as Fagan leaves in 2016, Clarkson has 5 seasons without winning a final, and is ultimately sacked at the end of that 5th season.

He then goes to North who outside of West Coast (14%), have the worst win rate in the league (16%) over the last 3 years since he's been there.

Chris Scott has never gone more than a season without winning a final, Clarkson has gone 8 in a row.

In fact in the 11 seasons that he hasn't been able to work with Fagan, he has only had 1 season where he won a final (and it was only 1 final).

Was Chris Fagan massively responsible for his success or not?

This is a bit strange. I guess if Isaac Smith had kicked straight after the siren, it would be different.

Clarkson deserves some "heat", sure, we need to be pushing finals in 2026, as far as I'm concerned I won't be judging us that harshly until 2027.

 

[010203]

44% win rate in the years at Hawthorn when Fagan wasn't there from 2005-2007 & 2017-2021.

72% win rate in the years when Fagan was there from 2008-2016.

Went 1-3 in finals without Fagan with 0 premierships, and 15-7 with Fagan, and 4 premierships.

His coaching at North has been absolutely awful, while Fagan has one of the highest win percentages of senior coaches since 2017 when he took over at Brisbane

I think Clarkson's finals record is 0-4 without Fages.

 

[Cyclops]

What about this strikes you as AI generated?

The fact a thread on this topic was posted earlier today with title "AI says..."

The internet is very toxic and there's a heap of timewasting bots crapping up so much of it.

If a human user posts AI slop im in favour of permabanning them.

 

[nineteen eighty]

This is a bit strange. I guess if Isaac Smith had kicked straight after the siren, it would be different.

Clarkson deserves some "heat", sure, we need to be pushing finals in 2026, as far as I'm concerned I won't be judging us that harshly until 2027.

I think judgement can come next year. I don’t have an in-depth knowledge of your list other than you will have many top draft picks in their 3rd year plus. There has to be a distinct improvement in a couple of obvious KPI’s… % and games won.

Your percentage has been atrocious and the first sign of improvement is it tracking to positive. The next is an improvement in games won. North absolutely need to show significant improvement in both.

And I rate Clarkson as one of the best coaches going around. Even he has to be held to account though.

 

[Chip Scab1]

I think judgement can come next year. I don’t have an in-depth knowledge of your list other than you will have many top draft picks in their 3rd year plus. There has to be a distinct improvement in a couple of obvious KPI’s… % and games won.

Your percentage has been atrocious and the first sign of improvement is it tracking to positive. The next is an improvement in games won. North absolutely need to show significant improvement in both.

And I rate Clarkson as one of the best coaches going around. Even he has to be held to account though.

% improved significantly this year. 63.5 v 76.3??

You can't be half pregnant, I'd rather be a chance of a flag when we come good, than a chance of finals ala Hawks.

 

[nineteen eighty]

% improved significantly this year. 63.5 v 76.3??

You can't be half pregnant, I'd rather be a chance of a flag when we come good, than a chance of finals ala Hawks.

Got to be almost 100 next year. It’s ok to not win as you’re developing but you have to stop the beltings. Close wins are fine as you develop.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I’m sure both Fagan and Clarkson contributed to the success.

It’s never just one person.

And at Brisbane I’m sure there’s others who contribute very strongly too. It’s not just Fagan.

You need good operators who complement each other. Going after an individual to do it all is just messiah chasing and never works.

Doesn’t mean Clarkson is no good - it just means he needs to be left to do what he’s good at, with others there to take care of other stuff. If he doesn’t have that at North - and good chance he doesn’t - it won’t work.

 

[Plugger46]

This is a bit strange. I guess if Isaac Smith had kicked straight after the siren, it would be different.

Clarkson deserves some "heat", sure, we need to be PUSHING finals in 2026, as far as I'm concerned I won't be judging us that harshly until 2027.

I think at least getting mid table
I just don't see North having quality players
Ldu isn't the player everyone thought he was going to be nor is Simpkin. Zurharr is pretty average to just players getting a price above what they're worth so they'll stay

 

[WillHayward]

Also, how lucky was Fagan to join at the time we had built up a good team?

Fagan took more years to get Brisbane good than Clarko took to get Hawthorn good. Fagan has also gone backwards at Brisbane. Only a 60% win rate there.

Ok but Fagan started dead last at Brisbane!

 

[Nunez]

Also, how lucky was Fagan to join at the time we had built up a good team?

Fagan took more years to get Brisbane good than Clarko took to get Hawthorn good. Fagan has also gone backwards at Brisbane. Only a 60% win rate there.

Bizarre. 2016 was one of the worst seasons you'll ever see. Brisbane only didn't finish last because Essendon got their whole list suspended. Fagan took over and in 2 years turned that team into a top 4 team through tactical shifts but above all else cultural shifts. He has kept the team up ever since.

A truly great coach whose story hasn't finished being written just yet.

I’m sure both Fagan and Clarkson contributed to the success.

It’s never just one person.

And at Brisbane I’m sure there’s others who contribute very strongly too. It’s not just Fagan.

You need good operators who complement each other. Going after an individual to do it all is just messiah chasing and never works.

Doesn’t mean Clarkson is no good - it just means he needs to be left to do what he’s good at, with others there to take care of other stuff. If he doesn’t have that at North - and good chance he doesn’t - it won’t work.

Well said. A great leader compliments themselves with people who are strong on areas you're not. That's something Fagan does very well and something Clarko does very well too. It's taking longer at North, but he will get them there IMO.

 

[Osho]

Clarkson's win rate at North is 16%, while Fagan's at Brisbane is 59%.

Brisbane were considered to be equally as hopeless when Fagan took over as North was when Clarkson took over.

Fagan went 5 wins, 5 wins, 16 wins in his first 3 years.

Clarkson has gone 3 wins, 3 wins, 5 wins.

The difference between the 2 of them has been huge.

No one can justify how the team North fielded most weeks this year can only win 5 games.

He can't appear to coach

Yeah, one of the worst 4 time premiership coaches ever. Nearly as bad as that illiterate Tommy Hafey who didn't do anything meaningful for the last 20 years of his coaching. And don't get me started on that useless waffler, Ronald Dale. What a bunch of legendary losers those old folks are.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

44% win rate in the years at Hawthorn when Fagan wasn't there from 2005-2007 & 2017-2021.

72% win rate in the years when Fagan was there from 2008-2016.

Went 1-3 in finals without Fagan with 0 premierships, and 15-7 with Fagan, and 4 premierships.

His coaching at North has been absolutely awful, while Fagan has one of the highest win percentages of senior coaches since 2017 when he took over at Brisbane

Will provide you fagans secret herbs and spices for success at Brisbane… here it is:

Trades (6)
Charlie Cameron; Lachie Neale; Josh Dunkley; Lincoln McCarthy; Callum Ah Chee; Darcy Fort. Wikipedia+1

Free agents (4)
Tom Doedee (restricted FA from Adelaide). Sam Draper, Oscar Allen daniher ( 2024 premiership) Wikipedia

Academy picks (8)
Eric Hipwood; Harris Andrews; Jack Payne; Keidean Coleman; Shadeau Brain; Bruce Reville; Sam Marshall; Ty Gallop. lions.com.au+3Wikipedia+3Wikipedia+3

Father–son (3)
Will Ashcroft; Jaspa Fletcher; Levi Ashcroft.

That is a whopping 20 players either via trade academies/FS or free agencies.

Then throw in the stack of top high ends picks in Rayner (pick 1) mcluggage (pick 2) jarrod berry (17) Zac Bailey (15) Starcevich (18)

That is one kissed on the pecker dream red carpet roll out.

Probably half the leagues coaches right now could have taken this current group to 2 flags

 

[a_fighting_fury]

I’m sure both Fagan and Clarkson contributed to the success.

It’s never just one person.

And at Brisbane I’m sure there’s others who contribute very strongly too. It’s not just Fagan.

You need good operators who complement each other. Going after an individual to do it all is just messiah chasing and never works.

Doesn’t mean Clarkson is no good - it just means he needs to be left to do what he’s good at, with others there to take care of other stuff. If he doesn’t have that at North - and good chance he doesn’t - it won’t work.

Fair point, but if it’s not just Clarkson pulling the strings, how do you justify him pocketing $1m+ a year? North’s paying ‘messiah money’ for a bloke you say can’t do it all himself.

 

[Bucking Bronco]

Will provide you fagans secret herbs and spices for success at Brisbane… here it is:

Trades (6)
Charlie Cameron; Lachie Neale; Josh Dunkley; Lincoln McCarthy; Callum Ah Chee; Darcy Fort. Wikipedia+1

Free agents (4)
Tom Doedee (restricted FA from Adelaide). Sam Draper, Oscar Allen daniher ( 2024 premiership) Wikipedia

Academy picks (8)
Eric Hipwood; Harris Andrews; Jack Payne; Keidean Coleman; Shadeau Brain; Bruce Reville; Sam Marshall; Ty Gallop. lions.com.au+3Wikipedia+3Wikipedia+3

Father–son (3)
Will Ashcroft; Jaspa Fletcher; Levi Ashcroft.

That is a whopping 20 players either via trade academies/FS or free agencies.

Then throw in the stack of top high ends picks in Rayner (pick 1) mcluggage (pick 2) jarrod berry (17) Zac Bailey (15) Starcevich (18)

That is one kissed on the pecker dream red carpet roll out.

Probably half the leagues coaches right now could have taken this current group to 2 flags

Doedee has played 1 game for Brisbane, Sam Draper & Oscar Allen haven't played any, Daniher didn't play this year.

Hipwood, Payne, Coleman, McCarthy, Brain, McCarthy didn't play in the finals series at all.

Ah Chee, Fort, Reville, Marshall, Gallop are all role players at best at this point.

North Melbourne's list right now is much stronger than Brisbane's was in Fagan's first year, and despite that, and the fact that Clarkson had had 2 seasons already to assimilate the players into his game style prior to this season, he could only get as many wins as Fagan did in his first year (5), in a team for Fagan that didn't have any of the players I mentioned + Dunkley & Neale weren't even at the club yet, nor were the Ashcroft's or Fletcher

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Doedee has played 1 game for Brisbane, Sam Draper & Oscar Allen haven't played any, Daniher didn't play this year.

Hipwood, Payne, Coleman, McCarthy, Brain, McCarthy didn't play in the finals series at all.

Ah Chee, Fort, Reville, Marshall, Gallop are all role players at best at this point.

North Melbourne's list right now is much stronger than Brisbane's was in Fagan's first year, and despite that, and the fact that Clarkson had had 2 seasons already to assimilate the players into his game style prior to this season, he could only get as many wins as Fagan did in his first year (5), in a team for Fagan that didn't have any of the players I mentioned + Dunkley & Neale weren't even at the club yet, nor were the Ashcroft's or Fletcher

Ah chee is a decent player, gallop kicked 3 in a prelim final and was one of the BOG. Reveille was a decent player as well.

Daniher played in last years flag and was crucial. Now moving forward Allen and Draper will help big time.

I’m not referring to only this year, I’m referring to last years flag and the previous finals success and the future ahead which all those names you are disputing have contributed to past or present whether it’s thru creating strong depth or being good players.

Brisbane has had more recruitment luck and assistance with schemes than almost All other clubs.

To claim its fagan is ridiculous

 

[Kappa]

i think Clarkson was an amazing coach but perhaps is a victim now of his own massive success.

Considering the run he went on, it would be normal for your ego to get super high and think everything you do is the best way. The game, and coaching, has changed a LOT since the hawks era, my guess is he's still a bit stuck in his own ways because they were so successful before and its hard for him to listen to people with less credentials.

I have no interest in seeing North win flags, but I'd love for him to start being competitive because uncompetitive teams just make the season worse, so hope Clarkson can pull the club together.