If not CC then who???

[Roundhouse]

Emu bitter is better than xxxx gold, but that doesn't mean emu bitter is the best beer on the market.

Why use a clumsy metaphor/maxim?

Why don't you just say "IMO Connolly isn't the best coach on the market"?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on who is better.

 

[theGav56]

It is always much easier to have a crack at the coach, and in the end that is fair enough; the buck does stop there. It also lets the playing group off lightly. BUT, who would expect the club to be in a different place on the ladder if;

• Farmer, Black, Schammer, Johnson and Longmuir had been available?

There are other circumstances/players, but these players were critical to us getting a good start to the year. Them not being available doesn't let the coach off the hook as perhaps over aggression is something that has been encouraged.

BUT, I think with this playing group and this coach we are a consistant finals team, and still expect us to be in the finals this year. Why would would you trade that for anything but a guarenteed improvement? Sumich, Harvey, Lonmire etc are a LONG way from a guarenteed improvement.

 

[estibador]

BUT, I think with this playing group and this coach we are a consistant finals team, and still expect us to be in the finals this year. Why would would you trade that for anything but a guarenteed improvement? Sumich, Harvey, Lonmire etc are a LONG way from a guarenteed improvement.

Are we a guaranteed consistent finals team under CC though? After all we've only made the finals twice out of his 5 completed seasons and this one hasn't started off too promising. In fact, the whole reason he cops so much flack is because we missed the finals in 04/05 with a team widely regarded as having top 8 talent at least. The year we looked bound for the finals only to fold and miss out by losing our last 5 games was particulary disappointing.

I agree there's no point sacking CC if there's no one better available but he needs to keep the team improving. If we continue to hover mid table or even slide backwards then maybe we have to take a chance on a highly rated assistant.

Hopefully it won't be necessary but if it comes to the stage of having to find a new coach I'd like to see us throw mega bucks at a proven premiership coach. Our team has the raw material we just need someone who can squeeze every drop of talent out of them. Lethal would be my dream coach but that's never going to happen unfotunately. It would be interesting to see what someone like Sheedy could do with our team.

 

[Dr Ralph Dagg]

He has a swag of premierships and Norm Smith medals as a player of course, and di get teams into the finals. Ayres is generally detested by Geelong and Adelaide fans for destroying their clubs. He definitely has that ruthless streak, but lacks tactical nouse.

Belnakor, Sumich would be one of the last assitants that i would consider. Apart from seeming to be thick as a brick, his association with the WC Eagles would be problematic. He is coach of the midfield, and I'd have to ask the question "Why isn't he coaching the forward line?" Their midfield could be coached by any nuff-nuff, whereas their forward line is his area of speciallity, and it has problems. Could it be they are working within his limitations?

Hear, hear. I rate him as highly as I do McKenna.

Also, I rate Longmuir, Harvey and O'Donnell higher, but reality is they are all by definition unproven.

I think we should wait for the final diagnosis on Longmuir's knees before we consider him for coach. Longmire might be a better applicant.

I thought O'Donnell is the annointed successor for Sheedy. I thought he understood he was more likely to get Sheedy's job than take over from Mathews.

Harvey is the logical choice. But if I was Schwabby I'd be sounding out Sheedy. He loves Western Australia. He's quirky enough to fit in at Fremantle and we could get five years out of him. And he already knows half the football department.

As for your comments re Pagan's credentials not being great, he is clearly one of the finest coaches going around and has the cv to prove it, including his work at Carlton which has been the job from Hell.

He took that job on the basis that he had the first two draft picks for they year. He ended up with basically no draft picks for two years and a list of injury prone has beens with some nut jobs to boot. But I don't think he'd be a fit at Fremantle. He fell out with management at North Melbourne and is on rocky ground at Carlton.

 

[theGav56]

In fact, the whole reason he cops so much flack is because we missed the finals in 04/05 with a team widely regarded as having top 8 talent at least.

Yes getting to the finals in 03 did create unrealistic expectations. have a look at the list from then and compare it to now, including the additional physical conditioning and experience. there is no way that it was realistic for us to expect to play finals in 04/05, and yet we almost did.

Hopefully it won't be necessary but if it comes to the stage of having to find a new coach I'd like to see us throw mega bucks at a proven premiership coach. Our team has the raw material we just need someone who can squeeze every drop of talent out of them. Lethal would be my dream coach but that's never going to happen unfotunately. It would be interesting to see what someone like Sheedy could do with our team.

Agree. I would actually only like us to get a new coach if we had access to an experienced and available coach. Pagan and Sheedy look possible, but one of my concerns is that it would take a long contract to secure them. Maximum 3 year contract for me, preferably 2. Don't care about the money.

I think we should wait for the final diagnosis on Longmuir's knees before we consider him for coach. Longmire might be a better applicant.

Haha. Got me. Yes of course I meant Longmire.

On Longmuir and his degenerative playing career, what happens if he retires and we pay our his contract as ruck coach? Does it free up salary cap?

 

[Dr Ralph Dagg]

Worsfold accepted the west coast job because we offered a 2 year deal and they offered him 3. When we offered Worsfold the 2 year deal Neill Craig looked certain to be appointed eagles coach so Worsfold would have been our coach if he was offered 3 years.

IMO the relationship between Connolly and Schwab is bad for the club. Obviously the senior coach and CEO need to have a strong relationship, but the fact that they have been very close friends for over 20 years compromises Schwab's position. There is no way that CC would have got a 3 year extension in 2005 if Schwab wasn't his mate.

This is pure speculation. It might be true but a number of ducks need to line up to make it so. The first is that Rick Hart is a bit of a dummy. The second is the majority of the board are dummies. The third is the WAFC are also dummies. All of these have to be true before the conspiracy line can hold water. I don't think so. That CC and Schwabby are mates is a line trotted out by the WHTP types to justify their innate belief that CC can't take us to a premiership.

I agree, if Connolly goes I think Schwab (and probably Rick Hart) should go too. They are a package deal. Because of this I reckon CC will get another contract if we make the eight. Even though the bar was set to atleast play in another prelim, extending Connolly's contract is the easiest option for Hart and Schwab.

It will depend on what happens. I don't think anything will happen until the end of the season. I think limping into the bottom of the 8 won't cut it unless we have some very good reasons.

My suggestion is that CC and his wife are a package deal, and SHE might want to get out of the fishbowl and go back to Victoria. I don't think it will have anything to do with Schwab. It'll be down to the Directors and WAFC.

I agree again, if CC isn't at Freo next year I think he will coach again at AFL level from 2008 or 2009. He is a a pretty good coach and his media skills would be a huge asset to a Victorian club. He has trouble motivating the Fremantle playing group so a change at seasons end would probably be the best thing for both parties, but I expect him to coach us next season.

The fact that we were a rabble prior to Connolly, Hart and Schwab arriving is irrelevent. Emu bitter is better than xxxx gold, but that doesn't mean emu bitter is the best beer on the market.

I think if CC isn't at Freo next year where we will all have our attention will be a major revamp of the list. I'd expect 8 or 9 players to go --either retired, dropped or traded. While we have developed both ends of the ground the core of midfield has stayed the same.

 

[estibador]

I agree, if Connolly goes I think Schwab (and probably Rick Hart) should go too. They are a package deal.

I don't agree with this at all. CC was a very highly rated assistant when we hired him and if he hadn't got the Freo job he surely would've been hired by another club by now. It's not like he was some unknown man off the street who only got the job because he was Schwab's friend.

Schwab and Hart have overseen an amazing turnaround to the most successful off field period this club has every seen. It would be madness to force them to leave if CC was sacked. Otherwise you'd be forced to sack your CEO and President everytime a coach they hired didn't work out. You only have to look at Richmond's heritage to see how a culture of instability can affect a club.

If the only issue is their relationship with CC and CC leaves, then we don't have an issue anymore do we?

 

[poshman]

I agree, and hopefully schwab stays for a long time, though hart has already said he may only be here a few more years.

As far as connolly goes, well we suffer from inconsistencies, and he doesn't seem to be able to fix that (whether that is his fault or not) the coach of the club will always be held responsible.

I must admit though I wouldlook forward to an overhaul of the list. As the players need to be made responsible as well.

 

[The Night Shift]

I don't agree with this at all. CC was a very highly rated assistant when we hired him and if he hadn't got the Freo job he surely would've been hired by another club by now. It's not like he was some unknown man off the street who only got the job because he was Schwab's friend.

Schwab and Hart have overseen an amazing turnaround to the most successful off field period this club has every seen. It would be madness to force them to leave if CC was sacked. Otherwise you'd be forced to sack your CEO and President everytime a coach they hired didn't work out. You only have to look at Richmond's heritage to see how a culture of instability can affect a club.

If the only issue is their relationship with CC and CC leaves, then we don't have an issue anymore do we?

No way. The off-field stability and profit Schwab & Hart have brought to Freo' are invaluable. The club coporately was a mess and described as a "basket case" untill they arrived. We need the stability. Dont become like Richmond.
As far as the coach goes - Harvey... or possibley Sheedy - if he's interested and wants another gig if he's moved on from the Bombers.

 

[dominguez]

The last part is a little revealing though. By saying that our clubs state before CC is irrelevant, you are hinting that any improvements in our performance as a team and a club have nothing to do with Connolly (or Schwab or Hart).

Sorry but you are just plain wrong. The club was a rabble that could have very easily stayed a rabble or easily gotten futher in the shit.

I think Connolly has managed the list well. Unfortunately I think that he isn't going to be able to take us to the summit, so it will be best for all parties if he moves on at the end of the season. Schwab and Hart have handled off field issues superbly, no one would have believed 5 years ago that we'd have this many members. They will certainly leave the finances in a better state than they found them.

I do however believe that onfield improvement was a certainty. Our list at the end of 2001 was laden with first round picks and Croad, McPharlin, Simmonds and Farmer had just arrived at the club. I consider the fact that we were terrible beofre Connolly, Schwab and Hart arrived irrelevant because the draft is structured to catapult teams that finish at the bottom back up.

Connolly did a fantastic job to turn things around so quickly, and his personality was fantastic for a club that was at the lowest of lows. But I feel that he currently isn't getting the best from the players and needs to turn things around quickly or he won't be here much longer.

 

[dominguez]

Why use a clumsy metaphor/maxim?

Why don't you just say "IMO Connolly isn't the best coach on the market"?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on who is better.

We've got a great list and lots of money. I'd say the only coaches who definately won't be available in 4 months time are Worsfold, Craig, Malthouse, Williams, Roos, Wallace, Eade and Lyon.

 

[Ripper]

I think Connolly has managed the list well. Unfortunately I think that he isn't going to be able to take us to the summit, so it will be best for all parties if he moves on at the end of the season. Schwab and Hart have handled off field issues superbly, no one would have believed 5 years ago that we'd have this many members. They will certainly leave the finances in a better state than they found them.

I do however believe that onfield improvement was a certainty. Our list at the end of 2001 was laden with first round picks and Croad, McPharlin, Simmonds and Farmer had just arrived at the club. I consider the fact that we were terrible beofre Connolly, Schwab and Hart arrived irrelevant because the draft is structured to catapult teams that finish at the bottom back up.

Connolly did a fantastic job to turn things around so quickly, and his personality was fantastic for a club that was at the lowest of lows. But I feel that he currently isn't getting the best from the players and needs to turn things around quickly or he won't be here much longer.

It may be the aim of it but it has yet to happen in the real world.

Hawks , Dee's , Bullies , Tigers , Pies , Saints , Blues have all double dipped at least twice and are yet to win a flag.

You could add the Cats to that with their pletlora of F/S picks.

 

[dominguez]

Hawks , Dee's , Bullies , Tigers , Pies , Saints , Blues have all double dipped at least twice and are yet to win a flag.

You could add the Cats to that with their pletlora of F/S picks.

They haven't won a flag, but they would have played finals not long after finishing down the bottom. My point was that some people believe that Connolly is a very good coach because we finished 7th in his second season, but almost all teams would play finals once in 4 years after finishing bottom like we did.

Because we've only done it twice it's considered an achievement by some to make the 8, which is a shame and illustrates that after 12 years of pain some of us are willing to accept mediocrity.

 

[Ripper]

They haven't won a flag, but they would have played finals not long after finishing down the bottom. My point was that some people believe that Connolly is a very good coach because we finished 7th in his second season, but almost all teams would play finals once in 4 years after finishing bottom like we did.

Because we've only done it twice it's considered an achievement by some to make the 8, which is a shame and illustrates that after 12 years of pain some of us are willing to accept mediocrity.

That is just plain wrong.

Twelve years cannot be blamed on the current Admin as they only started in 2002.

Too many people are after the quick fix and it does just not happen unless you are a top team that has an off year due to mainly injury.

Have the Tigers rebounded strongly?
What about the Blues? They won the spoon the year after We did.

What about the Bullies? - They won a spoon the year after that.

The fact of the matter is that We have been the 7th best performed team on W/L since 2002.

Before that we were by far the worst - a group that had never ever won three games in a row ever.

http://afl.allthestats.com/statistics/alltime.php?t2=&yrfm=2002&yrto=2007&gnd=0&inat=4&when=

 

[Wizard]

Not that i want him but i bet if Sheeds was available and so was this job he'd be here tomorrow. He would take the job no questions asked.

 

[tico]

That is just plain wrong.

Twelve years cannot be blamed on the current Admin as they only started in 2002.

Too many people are after the quick fix and it does just not happen unless you are a top team that has an off year due to mainly injury.

Have the Tigers rebounded strongly?
What about the Blues? They won the spoon the year after We did.

What about the Bullies? - They won a spoon the year after that.

The fact of the matter is that We have been the 7th best performed team on W/L since 2002.

Before that we were by far the worst - a group that had never ever won three games in a row ever.

http://afl.allthestats.com/statistics/alltime.php?t2=&yrfm=2002&yrto=2007&gnd=0&inat=4&when=

(opens mouth to start to speak).................................(no need , some people never learn same old arguments, same old defenders)......





just out of curiosity ripper . your real name isn't shane is it?

 

[dominguez]

That is just plain wrong.

Twelve years cannot be blamed on the current Admin as they only started in 2002.

Too many people are after the quick fix and it does just not happen unless you are a top team that has an off year due to mainly injury.

Have the Tigers rebounded strongly?
What about the Blues? They won the spoon the year after We did.

What about the Bullies? - They won a spoon the year after that.

The fact of the matter is that We have been the 7th best performed team on W/L since 2002.

Before that we were by far the worst - a group that had never ever won three games in a row ever.

http://afl.allthestats.com/statistics/alltime.php?t2=&yrfm=2002&yrto=2007&gnd=0&inat=4&when=

Sorry, I was unclear. I wasn't criticising the fact that we have had a tough 12 years, my point was that because we have been down for so long the bar has been lowered by some peoeple, and that they will be satisfied if we play finals this year. Being 7th best over 5 years isn't something to hang our hat on. The fact that you mentioned it suggest that you are prepared to accept mediocrity.

Being the worst team over 7 years meant that we were guaranteed dramatic improvement once a competent administration and coach moved in. There were 5 top 5 picks on our list with less than 50 games experience at the start of 2002 so improvement was practically assured. Imagine having Marc Murphy, Brett Deledio, Lance Franklin, Matt Leuenberger and Dale Thomas on the one list.

I think that the club, like the supporters, have looked for the quick fix quite often.

The bulldogs made the 8 within 3 years of finishing last so they support my point.

The blues are irrelevent because they lost their picks. Would we have made the 8 in 2003 if we had lost our picks in 1999 and 2000?

Richmond are currently struggling, but they finished 9th 2 years after finishing 16th so they got close.

 

[Ripper]

Sorry, I was unclear. I wasn't criticising the fact that we have had a tough 12 years, my point was that because we have been down for so long the bar has been lowered by some peoeple, and that they will be satisfied if we play finals this year. Being 7th best over 5 years isn't something to hang our hat on. The fact that you mentioned it suggest that you are prepared to accept mediocrity.

Being the worst team over 7 years meant that we were guaranteed dramatic improvement once a competent administration and coach moved in. There were 5 top 5 picks on our list with less than 50 games experience at the start of 2002 so improvement was practically assured. Imagine having Marc Murphy, Brett Deledio, Lance Franklin, Matt Leuenberger and Dale Thomas on the one list.

I think that the club, like the supporters, have looked for the quick fix quite often.

The bulldogs made the 8 within 3 years of finishing last so they support my point.

The blues are irrelevent because they lost their picks. Would we have made the 8 in 2003 if we had lost our picks in 1999 and 2000?

Richmond are currently struggling, but they finished 9th 2 years after finishing 16th so they got close.

Not true . We started yet again in 2001 after drummies big cleanout.

No surprise that Brisbane & Port have rebounded so quickly when you count up the number of premiership players on their respective lists.

We made the finals two years after finishing last with a group that had never won 3 in a row.

It take time to build from that , While Macca , Parks and Cookie are still getting a game (much as i love them) it means we are still building.

We also lost draft picks.
No 1 in the 2001 P/S draft and our 3rd round pick in the 2002 draft.

We also didn't bounce along on the bottom (We could not afford to We were $7mil in the red).


Why have you picked players from different drafts in your example?

You have 2 x No 1 picks there.

 

[dominguez]

Fabian Francis was a big loss.

 

[Ripper]

Fabian Francis was a big loss.

Ah, We will never know.

Win the next two and We are 5-5.

 

[dominguez]

5-5 will mean that we'll need to go 10-2 to make the top 4. Anything short of a prelim will be a failure, but we could get there from 5th or 6th. The next 5 are very winable, aslong as we play somewhere near our best. We need a good start Friday night, the opposition have kicked the first goal in all 8 games this season which is ridiculous.

 

[Lach72]

5-5 will mean that we'll need to go 10-2 to make the top 4. Anything short of a prelim will be a failure, but we could get there from 5th or 6th. The next 5 are very winable, aslong as we play somewhere near our best. We need a good start Friday night, the opposition have kicked the first goal in all 8 games this season which is ridiculous.

We can beat the Saints. They are decimated by injury. Whether we will or not is another thing.
On form the Magpies will probably run over the top of us.
We should beat the Tigers.
After that it really is a raffle.

 

[Billy Hunt]

Not true . We started yet again in 2001 after drummies big cleanout.

No surprise that Brisbane & Port have rebounded so quickly when you count up the number of premiership players on their respective lists.

We made the finals two years after finishing last with a group that had never won 3 in a row.

It take time to build from that , While Macca , Parks and Cookie are still getting a game (much as i love them) it means we are still building.

We also lost draft picks.
No 1 in the 2001 P/S draft and our 3rd round pick in the 2002 draft.

We also didn't bounce along on the bottom (We could not afford to We were $7mil in the red).


Why have you picked players from different drafts in your example?

You have 2 x No 1 picks there.

This is part of the problem, other than Luke McPharlin who have we got from the strongest draft ever

2001 National Draft
4-Graham Polak (East Fremantle)
52-Andrew Browne (Claremont)
56-Paul Medhurst (Claremont)
66 not utilised
Pre-season Draft
4-Simon Eastaugh (Essendon)
Trades
Trent Croad (Hawthorn) and Luke McPharlin (Hawthorn) traded to Fremantle for draft picks 1 (Hawthorn used to pick Luke Hodge), 20 (Hawthorn used to pick Daniel Elstone) and 36 (Hawthorn used to pick Sam Mitchell) Heath Black traded by Fremantle for draft selection 17 Jeff Farmer traded to Melbourne for draft selection 17 (Melbourne used to pick James Kelly) Troy Simmonds (Melbourne) traded to Fremantle for Daniel Bandy


Rookie Elevations
Robert Haddrill
Keren Ugle
Daniel Haines

 

[Ripper]

5-5 will mean that we'll need to go 10-2 to make the top 4. Anything short of a prelim will be a failure, but we could get there from 5th or 6th. The next 5 are very winable, aslong as we play somewhere near our best. We need a good start Friday night, the opposition have kicked the first goal in all 8 games this season which is ridiculous.

14 wins will just about do it this year IMO.

Funnily enough I feel more confident when We don't kick the first goal.

The Sainters are racked with injury at the moment and I reckon Montanga will be looked at by the MRP.

Does anybody know what the clearance count was today?

The Hawks appeared to smash the Saints at the stoppages.

 

[Ripper]

This is part of the problem, other than Luke McPharlin who have we got from the strongest draft ever

2001 National Draft
4-Graham Polak (East Fremantle)
52-Andrew Browne (Claremont)
56-Paul Medhurst (Claremont)
66 not utilised
Pre-season Draft
4-Simon Eastaugh (Essendon)
Trades
Trent Croad (Hawthorn) and Luke McPharlin (Hawthorn) traded to Fremantle for draft picks 1 (Hawthorn used to pick Luke Hodge), 20 (Hawthorn used to pick Daniel Elstone) and 36 (Hawthorn used to pick Sam Mitchell) Heath Black traded by Fremantle for draft selection 17 Jeff Farmer traded to Melbourne for draft selection 17 (Melbourne used to pick James Kelly) Troy Simmonds (Melbourne) traded to Fremantle for Daniel Bandy


Rookie Elevations
Robert Haddrill
Keren Ugle
Daniel Haines

Aaron Sandilands & Rodger Hayden from the Rookie draft.