India v Pakistan

[hawkinoz]

It's hard to know how successful the Indian strikes were. If cratering a few runways was all they did then it wasn't very successful, though there are rumours they got an AWACs on the ground. It appears a number of PRC air defence systems were overcome but again we need more detail to evaluate each sides performance. PAF on the other hand bagged 3-5 IAF jets 100kms within India, that is a real achievement. I'm giving bragging rights to Pakistan on what little we know. Certainly a battle for the history books. Been to many of them in recent years.

oh pls, there is 0 evidence of any Indian planes being hit by PAF while you handwave away strikes on 11 airbases of a N weapons nation. Maybe there is some minor hit by friendly fire at best but India which has in past had no issues reporting fatalities( compared to Pak or China) has said all birds came home fine. No IAF Birds crossed border.
0 videos of pilots ejecting or crashed planes. Only pics were of drop tanks.

Having said that I have seen chatter that there is 2-3 PAF pilots in captivity, will hear about it soon. It is only stoppage and not ceasefire. Should be back to action in few days.

I find it funny on the silence in Western media when a N armed country got smashed and they have shown the white flag by calling up the Indian DGMO and asking for a break. Funny that this is not news. Examining this news means facing some hard facts, unpalatable ones.



In contrast the Indian PM yday made a show of visiting the airbase the Pak PR guy said was smashed. Anyway takeways for India is below( also for world)

 

[Total Power]

oh pls, there is 0 evidence of any Indian planes being hit by PAF while you handwave away strikes on 11 airbases of a N weapons nation. Maybe there is some minor hit by friendly fire at best but India which has in past had no issues reporting fatalities( compared to Pak or China) has said all birds came home fine. No IAF Birds crossed border.
0 videos of pilots ejecting or crashed planes. Only pics were of drop tanks.

Having said that I have seen chatter that there is 2-3 PAF pilots in captivity, will hear about it soon. It is only stoppage and not ceasefire. Should be back to action in few days.

I find it funny on the silence in Western media when a N armed country got smashed and they have shown the white flag by calling up the Indian DGMO and asking for a break. Funny that this is not news. Examining this news means facing some hard facts, unpalatable ones.

View attachment 2314667

In contrast the Indian PM yday made a show of visiting the airbase the Pak PR guy said was smashed. Anyway takeways for India is below( also for world)

Pakistan media narrative has been pretty strong on this. Unnamed French official said....Unnamed US official said. When sources are unnamed the narrative tends to be dodgy. Plus i never buy the Pakistani narrative anyway. They give a state funeral to a UN designated terrorist and giving him a compensation of 1.4m for his family (one of them being his brother who chopped off Daniel Pearl's head on live tv) despite denying there are terrorists on their territory

NYT article:





Pakistan has been sheltering and grooming terrorists for ages and it shows when you talk to the FHM of pakistan. No one believes a word they say...expect for the usual suspects.

 

[CD Xbow]

Pakistan media narrative has been pretty strong on this. Unnamed French official said....Unnamed US official said. When sources are unnamed the narrative tends to be dodgy. Plus i never buy the Pakistani narrative anyway. They give a state funeral to a UN designated terrorist and giving him a compensation of 1.4m for his family (one of them being his brother who chopped off Daniel Pearl's head on live tv) despite denying there are terrorists on their territory

NYT article:

View attachment 2314690View attachment 2314691View attachment 2314692



Pakistan has been sheltering and grooming terrorists for ages and it shows when you talk to the FHM of pakistan. No one believes a word they say...expect for the usual suspects.

1. I have no skin in the game.
2. I said at the start to be skeptical of any claims.
3. There is some evidence for the loss of 3 Indian craft, previously the PAF has done well against the IAF
4. Indian air defence appears to have been effective
5. Indian strikes may have been very effective but we need to see more evidence and have it evaluated
6. I suspect the strikes were reasonably effective as Pakistan was pretty quick to de-escalate.
7. Loss of aircraft stands out more and makes better news than strikes on base, especially when one supporter, the PRC, gains good PR from the losses.
8. I regard Pakistan as close to a failed state and one that supports terrorism
9. Truth is the first casualty of war.

 

[hawkinoz]

1. I have no skin in the game.
2. I said at the start to be skeptical of any claims.
3. There is some evidence for the loss of 3 Indian craft, previously the PAF has done well against the IAF
4. Indian air defence appears to have been effective
5. Indian strikes may have been very effective but we need to see more evidence and have it evaluated
6. I suspect the strikes were reasonably effective as Pakistan was pretty quick to de-escalate.
7. Loss of aircraft stands out more and makes better news than strikes on base, especially when one supporter, the PRC, gains good PR from the losses.
8. I regard Pakistan as close to a failed state and one that supports terrorism
9. Truth is the first casualty of war.

Pls show this "some evidence"... Quotes by Pakistani military affliated journos in Reuters and referencing "US official" is no evidence.

if you have no skin in this game, then lets see data you used to come to that conclusion.

You got Sat images of damage caused in pakistan and you say "may have been very effective", it is not the damage per say that shows effectiveness, it is the effect of having the capacity to strike deep inside Pak and being successful.

Sad to see Westerners choose to back a terrorist state's propaganda and ignore the words of a democratic one( not pointing out that India is world largest nation, biggest democracy, 4rth largest in economy).

Accepting sat images and India's information means
1. Pak is no longer a N state, which means there is no Islamic nation with the bomb,
2. Chn weapons systems are duds
3. US weapons system also failed as they couldn't defend Pak assets
4. US/West/Chn can no longer try to scare India with Pakistan bogey and slyly support terrorist attacks on India while pretending to be against terrorism.
5. Breakup on Pakistan is on cards and US needs to accelerate plans on how to remain in the region.
6. Efficacy of Indian Brahmos & the upcoming hypersonic missiles systems means a lot to power projection in Indian ocean and security of Guam.

As Maria says, India insistence for truth is counter productive. They need to play the fake game like others.



Maybe India should have hit population/economic centres and then westerners will accept the facts.

The risk of India conducting saturation attacks against N/Defence assets over coming days/weeks/ months is very high now. Maybe waiting for China to make its Taiwan move. Will ensure India takes back POK and the Balachi independence declared this week will be crystallised.

PS : QUAD is likely dead in water, just a talking shop & India will likely treat it as such.

 

[CD Xbow]

Pls show this "some evidence"... Quotes by Pakistani military affliated journos in Reuters and referencing "US official" is no evidence.

if you have no skin in this game, then lets see data you used to come to that conclusion.

You got Sat images of damage caused in pakistan and you say "may have been very effective", it is not the damage per say that shows effectiveness, it is the effect of having the capacity to strike deep inside Pak and being successful.

Sad to see Westerners choose to back a terrorist state's propaganda and ignore the words of a democratic one( not pointing out that India is world largest nation, biggest democracy, 4rth largest in economy).

Accepting sat images and India's information means
1. Pak is no longer a N state, which means there is no Islamic nation with the bomb,
2. Chn weapons systems are duds
3. US weapons system also failed as they couldn't defend Pak assets
4. US/West/Chn can no longer try to scare India with Pakistan bogey and slyly support terrorist attacks on India while pretending to be against terrorism.
5. Breakup on Pakistan is on cards and US needs to accelerate plans on how to remain in the region.
6. Efficacy of Indian Brahmos & the upcoming hypersonic missiles systems means a lot to power projection in Indian ocean and security of Guam.

As Maria says, India insistence for truth is counter productive. They need to play the fake game like others.

I'm not sure there is a lot of point in me answering because you already know the 'truth' - eg 'Chinese weapons are duds', the 'West is trying to scare India with Pakistan'.

 

[hawkinoz]

I'm not sure there is a lot of point in me answering because you already know the 'truth' - eg 'Chinese weapons are duds', the 'West is trying to scare India with Pakistan'.

You seemed so sure of of 3 Indian jets being downed and used that fake news to first give Pak the win, then after Total Power showed the far more damaging strikes in Pak territory which is verified by Sat images, you still want to call it a draw.

But at same time you want us to think you have "no skin" in the game, don't support pakistan as it a terror state and give us platitudes on truth being casualty in war. When asked pointedly for evidence on jets down claim, you deflect. Where did you learn Gaslighting?

One more fact is Pak DGMO called asking for a stop. He did this because India told JDVance when he called asking for a stop that Pak has to call and his words have no effect. India doesn't allow mediators in this issue. Then this happnned


Inspite of India saying this clearly, orange boy Trump wanted to take credit and put out a childish tweet with errors, likely advised by Rubia. Marco Rubio also put a tweet that was wrong, claiming India has agreed to talks at a neutral location.( can link Rubio's tweet if needed)




Indian PM Modi in his public speech 2 days back reiterated the same and also took pointed barbs at US playing games and talking with forked tongue. Was soon followed by tariffs on US steel products, so much for Trumps, I used Trade to stop war.

None of this is in western news. Maybe talking about all this at this time may take away the sheen from Trump's gulf trip and raise uncomfortable questions.

 

[CD Xbow]

You seemed so sure of of 3 Indian jets being downed and used that fake news to first give Pak the win, then after Total Power showed the far more damaging strikes in Pak territory which is verified by Sat images, you still want to call it a draw.

But at same time you want us to think you have "no skin" in the game, don't support pakistan as it a terror state and give us platitudes on truth being casualty in war. When asked pointedly for evidence on jets down claim, you deflect. Where did you learn Gaslighting?

One more fact is Pak DGMO called asking for a stop. He did this because India told JDVance when he called asking for a stop that Pak has to call and his words have no effect. India doesn't allow mediators in this issue. Then this happnned
View attachment 2314901

Inspite of India saying this clearly, orange boy Trump wanted to take credit and put out a childish tweet with errors, likely advised by Rubia. Marco Rubio also put a tweet that was wrong, claiming India has agreed to talks at a neutral location.( can link Rubio's tweet if needed)

View attachment 2314907


Indian PM Modi in his public speech 2 days back reiterated the same and also took pointed barbs at US playing games and talking with forked tongue. Was soon followed by tariffs on US steel products, so much for Trumps, I used Trade to stop war.

None of this is in western news. Maybe talking about all this at this time may take away the sheen from Trump's gulf trip and raise uncomfortable questions.

I promise you I have no skin in the game. You clearly support India. I support neither. I have a very low opinion of Pakistan, like I said, I think it's probably a failed state and it's support of terrorism is disgusting.

In the last air combat between the 2 sides in 2019, India claimed to have shot down a PAF F16. However no good evidence was presented and later the US denied the loss, stating explicitly that none of the F16 fleet were lost. India still maintains they bagged an F16 despite no evidence and US denials.

Truth is the first casualty in war.

 

[Total Power]

I have no skin in the game too mate. I am not Indian nor pakistan, nor from that region. I am an indigenous Australian who lives in Europe. I am saying if Pakistan downed Indian jets, the claims range from 2 to 8 jets. While they may have downed one, how many did they lose? If India bombed their air strips, surely they lost a few jets themselves. Indian media stated they lost a few Mirages and some other jets (i forgot their names).

They claimed to have destroyed a s400 air defence system which is fake. Look at the sattelite image they posted compared to Indias.

 

[Total Power]

You seemed so sure of of 3 Indian jets being downed and used that fake news to first give Pak the win, then after Total Power showed the far more damaging strikes in Pak territory which is verified by Sat images, you still want to call it a draw.

But at same time you want us to think you have "no skin" in the game, don't support pakistan as it a terror state and give us platitudes on truth being casualty in war. When asked pointedly for evidence on jets down claim, you deflect. Where did you learn Gaslighting?

One more fact is Pak DGMO called asking for a stop. He did this because India told JDVance when he called asking for a stop that Pak has to call and his words have no effect. India doesn't allow mediators in this issue. Then this happnned
View attachment 2314901

Inspite of India saying this clearly, orange boy Trump wanted to take credit and put out a childish tweet with errors, likely advised by Rubia. Marco Rubio also put a tweet that was wrong, claiming India has agreed to talks at a neutral location.( can link Rubio's tweet if needed)

View attachment 2314907


Indian PM Modi in his public speech 2 days back reiterated the same and also took pointed barbs at US playing games and talking with forked tongue. Was soon followed by tariffs on US steel products, so much for Trumps, I used Trade to stop war.

None of this is in western news. Maybe talking about all this at this time may take away the sheen from Trump's gulf trip and raise uncomfortable questions.

Pakistan is a shitty terrorist/failed/banana republic who should never been allowed to have nuclear weapons. That unelected government cannot be trust to misuse them. If they want to de-escalate, they should destroy the LeT and JeM camps in their countries first. Their defense minister admitted himself that they harbour terrorists.

 

[IlovethePies]

Pakistan is a shitty terrorist/failed/banana republic who should never been allowed to have nuclear weapons. That unelected government cannot be trust to misuse them. If they want to de-escalate, they should destroy the LeT and JeM camps in their countries first. Their defense minister admitted himself that they harbour terrorists.

This is a totally racist, degenerate post.
The Pakistani government is no better, no worse than the fascist Modi government in India.
They are all ultra right wing xenophobic, nationalist governments attempting to prosecute the profit interests of their capitalist masters in the region.
Moreover, this entire dispute is enmeshed in the escalating conflict between the US and China. India has become a pro-US darling in S. Asia, and the Pakistani regime has turned to China to defend itself.
War between India and Pakistan could potentially draw in both the US and China. That is what is at stake.
Comments such as contained in this post are to be abhorred.

 

[Total Power]

This is a totally racist, degenerate post.
The Pakistani government is no better, no worse than the fascist Modi government in India.
They are all ultra right wing xenophobic, nationalist governments attempting to prosecute the profit interests of their capitalist masters in the region.
War between India and Pakistan could potentially draw in both the US and China. That is what is at stake.
Comments such as contained in this post are to be abhorred.

Yeah typical till someone comes along without knowing facts and cries racist. How is it racist calling a country that refuses to call terrorists' terrorists? why wouldn't Pak admit that both LeT and JeM are operating from their lands? why would they call them freedom fighters and not terrorists? when UN/UK/US all recognise them as terrorists. They have cut heads on live tv, attacked civilians, hijacked planes etc?

Pakistan and state-sponsored terrorism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How many people have the RSS and Saffron army killed in Pakistan? i assume none. While yes they are ultra national right wing parties, it's like comparing AfD with Taliban.

Pakistan has just given a state funeral to a US/UN wanted terrorist. But this is apparently racist? who is a US/UN desginated terrorist that Modi is protecting?

Lashkar-e-Taiba - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you don't know who LeT is, please educate yourself.

Even Pakistan recognises LeT as a terror outfit.

Moreover, this entire dispute is enmeshed in the escalating conflict between the US and China. India has become a pro-US darling in S. Asia, and the Pakistani regime has turned to China to defend itself.

You literally have NFI don't you? China is just using Pakistan for their CPEC and belt road initiative (a project that has no future anyway) to use the Port of Gwadar that will solve a lot of their problems. Moreover manufacturing is flowing out of China to India. Seeing India weaken is a benefit to China. Whatever China touches results in poo. Amongst the nations in South Asia it's Sri Lanka, Maldives, Pakistan....and soon Bangladesh. All these countries have turned into economic basket cases right after China promised to help them. Try to analyse and not just read the headlines.

How are Panda Bonds doing? Pakistan is in deep shit right now due to Balochistan and the state of Balochistan declaring itself as an independent state. Which means soon China will ask for their money back as no way the CPEC is a viable project and Pakistan themselves made a lot of investments in it. Goodluck!!!!

And India is hardly a pro-US darling. India maintained great relationship with Russia, despite US threats and blackmail. India is one of the few countries importing Russian military equipments, oil, commodities etc. Pakistan is using US aircrafts in F-16, Indians are using French/Russian and locally made models.

Out of all this, not to mention Pak has asked for IMF bailout 24 times now. US has been instrumental in bailout Pakistan out through IMF. If you don't know how IMF operates, have a read.

 

[CD Xbow]

Despite being in The National Interest, I thought this was a pretty good article and worth a read

Post-Sindoor, A New Reality for India and Pakistan

India has embraced an assertive strategy of escalation dominance to impose a cost on future Pakistan-backed terrorism.

nationalinterest.org

The authors think it's unlikely Pakistan will diminish it's support of terrorism, which means we will see more conflicts like this.

 

[hawkinoz]

Despite being in The National Interest, I thought this was a pretty good article and worth a read

Post-Sindoor, A New Reality for India and Pakistan

India has embraced an assertive strategy of escalation dominance to impose a cost on future Pakistan-backed terrorism.

nationalinterest.org

The authors think it's unlikely Pakistan will diminish it's support of terrorism, which means we will see more conflicts like this.

They are all bad, just parroting Pak propaganda or even when sounding balanced, doing both-sidisms or false equivalences. For example see this one in NYT.




National Interest in particular just regurgitated Pak PR on Day 1 & 2, even now there are clickbait titles claiming PAF is great and Chn weapons are in demand, read the article and the quote Pak officials. These are the ppl who running the headlines or writing fake articles quoting "US officials".


Even in the rare instance you get a Indian person, they belong to the liberal/communist ecosystem which means they are Modi hater & peddling the usual stereotypes and fakery. Got examples of those too. Trump's USAID takedown has defanged(no more $$$) many of them in US but still some remnants remain in US & EU. Maybe CCP is keeping few of them going.

PS : won't ask for evidence for your earlier claim any longer, it is apparent you were take in by the Propaganda & headlines which you posted earlier. Next time run it via AI bias filters and see how they stack up.

This is a totally racist, degenerate post.
The Pakistani government is no better, no worse than the fascist Modi government in India.
They are all ultra right wing xenophobic, nationalist governments attempting to prosecute the profit interests of their capitalist masters in the region.
Moreover, this entire dispute is enmeshed in the escalating conflict between the US and China. India has become a pro-US darling in S. Asia, and the Pakistani regime has turned to China to defend itself.
War between India and Pakistan could potentially draw in both the US and China. That is what is at stake.
Comments such as contained in this post are to be abhorred.

Mate, quit peddling stereotypes. Prove Modi is fascist with a few data points, lets start with one. Just vomitting what you read from past USAID funded outlets is not proof. Modi is a leftist is thought, except for his insistence to protect the majority culture from further erosion. Minorities in India have more rights, you would be shocked if I start listing them out.

Idea of this "war" was to draw in China and then trap India in a war with China, a la Rus-Ukr. China wisely kept out.

Pak's standard tactic is to go all out on Day 1, get some wins and then beg for ceasefire and then claim they defeated India. They did same and even invented news when they didn't get the wins, just didn't expect India to climb the escalation ladder and smash their airbases. Any war longer than 2 days will end with a thumping of Pak. They just don't have the assets to fight a long war, will need lots of outside injection.

 

[Total Power]

They are all bad, just parroting Pak propaganda or even when sounding balanced, doing both-sidisms or false equivalences. For example see this one in NYT.




National Interest in particular just regurgitated Pak PR on Day 1 & 2, even now there are clickbait titles claiming PAF is great and Chn weapons are in demand, read the article and the quote Pak officials. These are the ppl who running the headlines or writing fake articles quoting "US officials".

View attachment 2316237
Even in the rare instance you get a Indian person, they belong to the liberal/communist ecosystem which means they are Modi hater & peddling the usual stereotypes and fakery. Got examples of those too. Trump's USAID takedown has defanged(no more $$$) many of them in US but still some remnants remain in US & EU. Maybe CCP is keeping few of them going.

PS : won't ask for evidence for your earlier claim any longer, it is apparent you were take in by the Propaganda & headlines which you posted earlier. Next time run it via AI bias filters and see how they stack up.




Mate, quit peddling stereotypes. Prove Modi is fascist with a few data points, lets start with one. Just vomitting what you read from past USAID funded outlets is not proof. Modi is a leftist is thought, except for his insistence to protect the majority culture from further erosion. Minorities in India have more rights, you would be shocked if I start listing them out.

Idea of this "war" was to draw in China and then trap India in a war with China, a la Rus-Ukr. China wisely kept out.

Pak's standard tactic is to go all out on Day 1, get some wins and then beg for ceasefire and then claim they defeated India. They did same and even invented news when they didn't get the wins, just didn't expect India to climb the escalation ladder and smash their airbases. Any war longer than 2 days will end with a thumping of Pak. They just don't have the assets to fight a long war, will need lots of outside injection.

French Expert has obviously not seen comprehensive proof on the social media as Pakistani Minister has clearly stated.Why do these fools look in the wrong place. When the Minister has said to go and see on social media, you should go and see on social media.You are not trusting the words of a Minister of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan ? Outrageous !

 

[Total Power]

From a pakistani journo.

 

[hawkinoz]

From a pakistani journo.

These journos know the facts, the western ones know too, but they play dumb as they are asked to do so by their intel agencies. LeT is listed as terror org by UN and even Australia, they have taken credit for many attacks. Where is their HQ?

Right inside Govt complex, basically run by Pak intel agency. So many Aussie journos go there for Cricket, do you think they don't know such basic info or maybe they don't bother as they get blinded by the hospitality.

Pleased to see it destroyed by India.


Hopefully more such attacks to come next week.

 

[IlovethePies]

They are all bad, just parroting Pak propaganda or even when sounding balanced, doing both-sidisms or false equivalences. For example see this one in NYT.




National Interest in particular just regurgitated Pak PR on Day 1 & 2, even now there are clickbait titles claiming PAF is great and Chn weapons are in demand, read the article and the quote Pak officials. These are the ppl who running the headlines or writing fake articles quoting "US officials".

View attachment 2316237
Even in the rare instance you get a Indian person, they belong to the liberal/communist ecosystem which means they are Modi hater & peddling the usual stereotypes and fakery. Got examples of those too. Trump's USAID takedown has defanged(no more $$$) many of them in US but still some remnants remain in US & EU. Maybe CCP is keeping few of them going.

PS : won't ask for evidence for your earlier claim any longer, it is apparent you were take in by the Propaganda & headlines which you posted earlier. Next time run it via AI bias filters and see how they stack up.




Mate, quit peddling stereotypes. Prove Modi is fascist with a few data points, lets start with one. Just vomitting what you read from past USAID funded outlets is not proof. Modi is a leftist is thought, except for his insistence to protect the majority culture from further erosion. Minorities in India have more rights, you would be shocked if I start listing them out.

Idea of this "war" was to draw in China and then trap India in a war with China, a la Rus-Ukr. China wisely kept out.

Pak's standard tactic is to go all out on Day 1, get some wins and then beg for ceasefire and then claim they defeated India. They did same and even invented news when they didn't get the wins, just didn't expect India to climb the escalation ladder and smash their airbases. Any war longer than 2 days will end with a thumping of Pak. They just don't have the assets to fight a long war, will need lots of outside injection.

 

[Total Power]

These journos know the facts, the western ones know too, but they play dumb as they are asked to do so by their intel agencies. LeT is listed as terror org by UN and even Australia, they have taken credit for many attacks. Where is their HQ?

Right inside Govt complex, basically run by Pak intel agency. So many Aussie journos go there for Cricket, do you think they don't know such basic info or maybe they don't bother as they get blinded by the hospitality.

Pleased to see it destroyed by India.


Hopefully more such attacks to come next week.

Most Aussies commenting here have never visited Pakistan or Kashmir. I have visited both. The facts are:

1. Pak psyche as completely anti-India with hate because well, India broke their country into 2. they speak about Jinnah being a hero and Indian Muslims are not real Muslims cause secularism and Islam don't go hand in hand. They really love to quote what Jinnah said 'Indian muslims will have to spend the rest of their life trying to prove their loyalty to India'

2. The military and civilian leadership realised they can't fight India in conventional war solely due to the size of India economy, geography and population. Hence the threat of nukes if nothing else works.

Pakistan also helped US with creation of Mujahideen to defeat USSR in Afghanistan, and after the job was done - well, they used that experience on the eastern border with India.

Hence, they invested in asymmetric warfare of terrorism which was cheap and gave them a plausible deniability in case shit hits the fan.

They have a huge population of rural youth drunk on the koolaid of Islamic indoctrination to train and throw at India.

 

[IlovethePies]

There is ample evidence that Modi is a fascist.

On Jan 22, 2024, Modi presided over a "sacred" religious ceremony to inaugurate a massive Hindu temple that the BJP government had erected in Ayodhya, on the site of the razed Babri Masjid (mosque). This mosque was destroyed by Hindu supremacists in 1992.

The construction of a Hindu temple on this site is an extreme, fascistic provocation against the Muslim population in Kashmir.

This provocation had been a longstanding goal of Modi's fascist Hindu extremist base.

Modi's political aim was to whip up hysteria against India's Muslim population, and at the same time gave Modi's seal of approval for further repression of the Muslim population in Kashmir.

The Modi government has claimed that LeT was responsible for the terror attack on Indian territory, but has not provided a shred of evidence.

In the meantime, it has launched Operation Sindoor, which threatens existentially Pakistan. This includes the suspension of the Indus Waters Treaty and therefore threatens Pakistan;s water supply. This is an existential threat to Pakistan.

The Indian airforce has also bombed targets to an unprecedented depth in Pakistani territory.

The fundamental point is that the ruling elites of both Pakistan and India are completely indifferent to the threat of an all-out war between India and Pakistan which would have catastrophic consequences for the peoples of South Asia and the entire world.

There is only one way out. The Pakistani and Indian working masses need to build a party to unite them against both the Indian and Pakistani governments, which are equally criminal, and threaten to plunge the entire region into a bloodbath.

 

[IlovethePies]

Most Aussies commenting here have never visited Pakistan or Kashmir. I have visited both. The facts are:

1. Pak psyche as completely anti-India with hate because well, India broke their country into 2. they speak about Jinnah being a hero and Indian Muslims are not real Muslims cause secularism and Islam don't go hand in hand. They really love to quote what Jinnah said 'Indian muslims will have to spend the rest of their life trying to prove their loyalty to India'

2. The military and civilian leadership realised they can't fight India in conventional war solely due to the size of India economy, geography and population. Hence the threat of nukes if nothing else works.

Pakistan also helped US with creation of Mujahideen to defeat USSR in Afghanistan, and after the job was done - well, they used that experience on the eastern border with India.

Hence, they invested in asymmetric warfare of terrorism which was cheap and gave them a plausible deniability in case shit hits the fan.

They have a huge population of rural youth drunk on the koolaid of Islamic indoctrination to train and throw at India.

You are simply a voice for the Indian bourgeoisie.
A war of India vs Pakistan would be a catastrophe for the entire world.
Why are you treating it as a chess game?
Your use of the word "Pak" and portrayal of rural youth as indoctrinated soldiers against India is straight from Modi's playbook.

 

[Total Power]

You are simply a voice for the Indian bourgeoisie.
A war of India vs Pakistan would be a catastrophe for the entire world.
Why are you treating it as a chess game?
Your use of the word "Pak" and portrayal of rural youth as indoctrinated soldiers against India is straight from Modi's playbook.

Oh you simpleton, the issue is complex.. and it goes all the way back to the Bangladeshi Liberation war.

No one wants a war, agreed it's a catastrophe for the whole world. But the issue of terrorism existed LONG time before the BJP came into power, you realise this right?Pakistan's government simply refuses to do enough to stop terrorism. One thing I was thinking about earlier today is that Pakistan, to this day, refuses to apologise for their role or even acknowledge the Bangladesh genocide.

I really can't stand when governments like Turkey and Pakistan insist that we all do something about their allegations of genocide against Israel but they can't even acknowledge what their own country did. It's hypocrisy at it's worst.

You still haven't answered my question. Why doesn't Pakistan acknowledge LeT and JeM are operating in Pakistan? the picture above is BEYOND proof enough. But apparently, it's racist to state so?

 

[IlovethePies]

Oh you simpleton, the issue is complex.. and it goes all the way back to the Bangladeshi Liberation war.

No one wants a war, agreed it's a catastrophe for the whole world. But the issue of terrorism existed LONG time before the BJP came into power, you realise this right?Pakistan's government simply refuses to do enough to stop terrorism. One thing I was thinking about earlier today is that Pakistan, to this day, refuses to apologise for their role or even acknowledge the Bangladesh genocide.

I really can't stand when governments like Turkey and Pakistan insist that we all do something about their allegations of genocide against Israel but they can't even acknowledge what their own country did. It's hypocrisy at it's worst.

You still haven't answered my question. Why doesn't Pakistan acknowledge LeT and JeM are operating in Pakistan? the picture above is BEYOND proof enough. But apparently, it's racist to state so?

Terrorism started at the time of the Partition, in 1947, which led to the deaths of 2 million Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs,

Within the space of the next four years (after 1947) , more than 15 million people, generally carrying no more than what they could hold in their hands and on their backs, migrated from one country to the other: Hindus and Sikhs fled Pakistan for India, and Muslims India for Pakistan.

The architects of Partition, including Nehru, independent India’s first prime minister, claimed it would attenuate communal frictions, if not lance the communal boil. In reality, it built communalism into the very state structure of South Asia, thereby entrenching and magnifying it.

The ruling elites of Muslim Pakistan and ostensibly secular India have promoted communalism and its ideological cousins, religious fundamentalism and caste-ism, as a means of channeling social anger in a reactionary direction and splitting the working class.

Ever since 1947, the subcontinent has been embroiled in a fratricidal war pursued by the Indian and Pakistani elites to seize territory and resources, and curry favour with imperialist powers to strengthen their hand.

India contains just as many terrorists as Pakistan: the Hindu supremacists are the equal of any Islamic terrorist in Pakistan.

There is no way out of the horror in the subcontinent except through the unification of the Indian and Pakistani working class populations to overthrow the fascistic cabals currently occupying both governments.

 

[Total Power]

Terrorism started at the time of the Partition, in 1947, which led to the deaths of 2 million Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs,

Within the space of the next four years (after 1947) , more than 15 million people, generally carrying no more than what they could hold in their hands and on their backs, migrated from one country to the other: Hindus and Sikhs fled Pakistan for India, and Muslims India for Pakistan.

The architects of Partition, including Nehru, independent India’s first prime minister, claimed it would attenuate communal frictions, if not lance the communal boil. In reality, it built communalism into the very state structure of South Asia, thereby entrenching and magnifying it.

The ruling elites of Muslim Pakistan and ostensibly secular India have promoted communalism and its ideological cousins, religious fundamentalism and caste-ism, as a means of channeling social anger in a reactionary direction and splitting the working class.

Ever since 1947, the subcontinent has been embroiled in a fratricidal war pursued by the Indian and Pakistani elites to seize territory and resources, and curry favour with imperialist powers to strengthen their hand.

Your history context is lacking and you don't know enough, it shows.

1.Pakistan was the first to invade Kashmir in 1948
2.Pakistan has openly funded and promoted terrorism in Kasmir, and sponsored militants who executed anyone pro-Indian
3.Pakistan has also supported the same elements of society who carried out the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri pandits in the 80s and 90s

If you go back to the early days, at the time of independence from the British, Kashmir was given the choice of joining Pakistan, India or staying independent. The then-king needed time to decide (to essentially hold a referendum) and asked both countries if they could maintain status quo. Pakistan said yes, but India wasn’t very interested. Eventually the people of Pakistan and its army invaded Kashmir, which forced the King to seek help from India and formally join the country. Hasty decisions taken by both sides, but it’s the people ultimately getting affected, always.

India contains just as many terrorists as Pakistan: the Hindu supremacists are the equal of any Islamic terrorist in Pakistan.

There is no way out of the horror in the subcontinent except through the unification of the Indian and Pakistani working class populations to overthrow the fascistic cabals currently occupying both governments.

This is an absolute Joke. I asked you a few questions and i see you still haven't answered. How many UN designated terror groups operate in India that has killed Pakistanis in Pakistan?

Why doesn't Pakistan acknowledge LeT and JeM are operating from Pakistan?

Why doesn't Pakistan acknowledge the Bangladeshi genocide of 1971?

 

[IlovethePies]

Your history context is lacking and you don't know enough, it shows.

1.Pakistan was the first to invade Kashmir in 1948
2.Pakistan has openly funded and promoted terrorism in Kasmir, and sponsored militants who executed anyone pro-Indian
3.Pakistan has also supported the same elements of society who carried out the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri pandits in the 80s and 90s

If you go back to the early days, at the time of independence from the British, Kashmir was given the choice of joining Pakistan, India or staying independent. The then-king needed time to decide (to essentially hold a referendum) and asked both countries if they could maintain status quo. Pakistan said yes, but India wasn’t very interested. Eventually the people of Pakistan and its army invaded Kashmir, which forced the King to seek help from India and formally join the country. Hasty decisions taken by both sides, but it’s the people ultimately getting affected, always.


This is an absolute Joke. I asked you a few questions and i see you still haven't answered. How many UN designated terror groups operate in India that has killed Pakistanis in Pakistan?

Why doesn't Pakistan acknowledge LeT and JeM are operating from Pakistan?

Why doesn't Pakistan acknowledge the Bangladeshi genocide of 1971?

Look mate, you're simply not understanding what I am saying.
Yes, there are terrorists operating in Pakistan - many of them created by the CIA.
There are also many terrorists in India, operating as Hindu supremacists, which the UN has not in all its "infinite wisdom"" decided to recognise.

The Indian terrorists kill with impunity within India, with the protection of Modi.

I don't care which side of the border terrorists operate. They are all terrorists. They are encouraged, abetted and supplied by the ruling elites.

How do we get rid of terrorists?

Not by supporting one band of terrorists against another.

Only by overthrowing the capitalist governments who are responsible for terrorism.

Unite the Pakistan and Indian workers to establish socialism throughout the sub-continent, and expand it to their class brothers in China and Russia.

 

[Total Power]

Look mate, you're simply not understanding what I am saying.
Yes, there are terrorists operating in Pakistan - many of them created by the CIA.
There are also many terrorists in India, operating as Hindu supremacists, which the UN has not in all its "infinite wisdom"" decided to recognise.

The Indian terrorists kill with impunity within India, with the protection of Modi.

I clearly stated this problem goes above and beyond BJP. It's a long standing problem. Pakistan violated the UN resolution first by invading Kashmir. This is a fact. Pakistan started this and it only got worse in time. I am not even talking about Mujahadeens.

PAKISTAN IS THE REASON WHY we are here period

According to UN Res. 47:- Pakistan needed to withdraw its forces from Kashmir-
-Followed by India reducing its forces-
- Followed by Plebiscite But Pakistan refused to withdraw in the name of security.

It was India that took the issue to Kashmir, because Pakistan was the aggressor. By violating UN resolution 47, Pakistan created the Kashmir issue. Today, it bays for Muslim blood in India by attempting to heighten divisions in India through terrorism.

Instead Pakistan resorted to the strategy of “Death by thousand cuts” towards India and this is why Pakistan keeps pushing terrorism towards India.

Pakistan could have resolved Kashmir in 1948, as per UN resolution 47 - which required Pakistan to completely withdraw from Kashmir (as it was the aggressor), followed by India reducing troops, followed by Plebiscite. But Pakistan chose to violate the UN resolution. Pakistan also violated Simla agreement and Lahore declaration.

I don't care which side of the border terrorists operate. They are all terrorists. They are encouraged, abetted and supplied by the ruling elite.

It's not a same, India is not exporting terrorism, Pakistan is.

How do we get rid of terrorists?

Ask Pakistan.

Not by supporting one band of terrorists against another.

It's ridiculous to suggest that AfD is as big of a thread as ISIS. You are not being reasonable or rational.

Only by overthrowing the capitalist governments who are responsible for terrorism.

Overthrowing? you mean just like Pakistan? The Hindu nationalist sentiment is a result of hostile forces all around India. Bangladesh, Pak, Maldives and China mostly. China recently renamed Arunachal Pradesh into a local name which has been a part of India according to UN rules. Please try to see the context.

Unite the Pakistan and Indian workers to establish socialism throughout the sub-continent, and expand it to their class brothers in China and Russia.

Lol socialism..ahh now i see where you are coming from. You literally are an idiot