Is it too soon to say i told you so?

[Slippery Pete]

They're not working harder, they're just working smarter.

If you don't believe me, this came straight from Bernie Vince's mouth.

 

[Elite Crow]

Jenny I suggest you read this article by Lloyd and that was even before the Carlton game.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-early-crow-20120519-1yxzv.html

 

[Slippery Pete]

"Easy to plan against."

I once used the analogy that playing Neil Craig's Crows was like playing AFL Live against the XBox. Nothing ever changed, only the degree of difficulty.

 

[jenny61_99]

They're not working harder, they're just working smarter.

If you don't believe me, this came straight from Bernie Vince's mouth.

Yes well there is that too. I think I've agreed with you more than once that Craig's game plan appeared to be too complicated for the group we had. Ok with the mature guns we had in his early days, clearly not once they'd left. Took me a while to see it, but I eventually came around.

 

[moogerfooger]

this really is one of the more pointless threads I've seen.

I should start my "sack Sando" campaign now (because there is nothing more certain - he will eventually need to be replaced). Then I can proudly claim to be the first to say it and roundly denigrate anyone who didn't come to that conclusion as quickly as me.

 

[Godallblighty]

Bump.

I think it's fair to say after 16 rounds with only three losses that the problem with the Adelaide Football Club in the last couple of years was indeed Neil Craig. I didn't see myself as part of the lynch mob in 2010/11. I thought there were some factors that mitigated his complete responsibility. I even thought he deserved 2011 as one last chance to prove that injuries/bad luck/a young list were the only things that were holding us back. I'm not interested in bagging Craig's entire tenure as coach. I thought he has pretty good early days.

But I did think latterly he was the problem rather than the solution. Consequently, he was given the push when he should have and I have been irritated at suggestions on this board that what we've seen this year is what we might have expected anyway, given the natural development of our list as young players get games under their belts. While there has been some improvement in the youngsters, this is a long way from being the critical factor IMO.

So, what are the big differences between Sando's Crows and Neil's? Here are the obvious ones, as I see it:

1. Gameplan. Neil's space-seeking, precision-dependent, momentum-killing style of play was entirely predictable to the opposition and easily countered. It also demanded a level of skill that the troops he had at his disposal in recent years seemed ill-equipped to execute. Sando, on the other hand has fashioned a no-nonsense approach that creates contested situations and backs the players to win them. Everyone seems to understand their roles, which seem to be tailored to individuals' strengths and weaknesses. Moreover, he has transformed our most critical area of disfunction - the forward line. I have absolutely no idea what our forward fifty intentions were in 2010/11. This year, it has been a delight to watch the key forwards contesting marks with the little guys there to take the crumbs. Crumbers! Who'd a'thought! We've seen quick movement through the centre leading to long bombs for goal or sharp passes to leads. We've seen intense tackling to lock the ball inside the fifty. We've scored over 100 points more times than not with a very even spread of goal-kickers. Halle*******lujah.
2. Flexibility. Neil was an ideological hard-arse. 'No backing off' was his mantra. Despite saying 'We'll learn from that' in every interview he ever gave, there was never any sign that he did. Even when there were changes, Neil would deny that they were doing anything different. This went hand-in-hand with a curious dishonesty, an unwillingness to fess up to his own fundamentals. Players apparently were never instructed to kick sideways and backwards, yet this was our signature manoeuvre. Sando, of course, has his own ideology but seems more transparent about it and, importantly, cuts his coat to match his cloth. The gameplan at the start of the season was brutally simplistic. As the players have mastered what's required, it has incrementally become more sophisticated. He's been prepared to move the players around, find the role that suits their skills. Mackay, Reilly, VB and Porps are all mature players who have improved their contributions primarily through being used in roles that make use of their strengths.
3. Physical conditioning. Neil's sports science expertise was vaunted as one of his weapons. But it is an area where it is hard to pin down actual ramifications. What is the relationship between training and injuries? Are bikes a useful conditioning tool for running athletes? Hard to say, especially from a layman's perspective. For my money, there were serious question marks against the load he placed on raw recruits - the numbers there don't look good. I also think he failed to fully grasp the requirements of modern footy as an anaerobically demanding sprinting game. There is no doubt that even in Craig's last years we set benchmarks for running that other teams didn't even come close to. Sando has inherited the benefits of that. But his emphasis shifted immediately from aerobic capacity to strength, bulking up the players in the off season. The other top teams this season are all physically big and strong. What's more, we have gone from a low-rotation side to the highest in the comp. I would say our capacity to play four quarters this year is greatly improved.
4. Man management. From the outside, Neil's management philosophy looked phony and choked with meaningless jargon. 'The Backboners'. 'The Crushers'. Sheesh. The persistent fiction that players made decisions that just happened to coincide with what Neil wanted. 'Definition of hardness' videos. To me it looked like an environment that encouraged positive doublespeak over open and honest communication. The subsequently acknowledged difficulty Neil had in relating to the younger players probably didn't help either. But hey, that kind of stuff can work for a time and, in Neil's case, probably did. But when it gets old, it gets old fast. Sando seems less inclined to the management gobbledegook and appears to have a good sympatico with the players. It's a change that is definitely working this year. How long it lasts is another matter.

The bottom line: Last year, the most vocal Craig supporters pushed the view that we were achieving exactly what might be expected of us given our list profile. I think that our success this year makes that look a very shaky contention. A very good run with injuries has been a blessing but there is no doubt in my mind that we performed well below our capabilities the last couple of years and the fault for that lay with the coach.

So, yes, it is time to say 'I told you so.'

 

[Cap]

it is an interesting topic

the Sunday Roast was talking about it on Sunday.

now I don't know if he is simply protecting Primus, but his theory (and one he thinks is supported by other clubs) is that the Crows didn't simply change coach, they changed the entire strucutre of the coaching department something he thinks Port Adelaide need to do.

 

[spexau]

Great post. Hard to disagree with anything you've said.

 

[amer]

They always had a top 4 and potential premiership list. Looking at the quality we had, I tore my hair out trying to reconcile it with the results we saw in 2010 and 2011. Injuries played a part, no doubt, but to be uncompetitive like we were...befuddling.

It would appear my 2011 prediction was a year premature.

 

[amer]

Bump.The bottom line: Last year, the most vocal Craig supporters pushed the view that we were achieving exactly what might be expected of us given our list profile. I think that our success this year makes that look a very shaky contention. A very good run with injuries has been a blessing but there is no doubt in my mind that we performed well below our capabilities the last couple of years and the fault for that lay with the coach.

So, yes, it is time to say 'I told you so.'

Utter crock of a notion.

Our performance against Hawthorn in round 1 last year was the only time our footy reflected our list. Backtrack to round 16 against Geelong in 2010 for the last reasonable reference point. Perhaps the demolition of Essendon in the same year.

You've made a great call here godallblighty.

 

[Team DJ]

Get around me.

Team DJ > S Trigg

 

[FR0GGY]

Get around me.

Team DJ > S Trigg

Hows your eyesight?

 

[Allefgib]

Great post Godallblighty - my highlights below:

...
Moreover, he has transformed our most critical area of disfunction - the forward line. I have absolutely no idea what our forward fifty intentions were in 2010/11. This year, it has been a delight to watch the key forwards contesting marks with the little guys there to take the crumbs. Crumbers!
...

'No backing off' was his mantra. Despite saying 'We'll learn from that' in every interview he ever gave, there was never any sign that he did. Even when there were changes, Neil would deny that they were doing anything different.
...
The gameplan at the start of the season was brutally simplistic. As the players have mastered what's required, it has incrementally become more sophisticated. (I'm loving this about Sando - individually and collectively he has gotten the boys doing something simple, then built on it. Been saying it for months and glad someone else is seeing what I see (so I know I'm not actually making it up )
...
For my money, there were serious question marks against the load he placed on raw recruits - the numbers there don't look good.
...
I would say our capacity to play four quarters this year is greatly improved. (The number of games we've held on or come back to win in the last this year has been telling in this regard)
...
To me it looked like an environment that encouraged positive doublespeak over open and honest communication. ... Sando seems less inclined to the management gobbledegook and appears to have a good sympatico with the players. (I think Sando still talks some management goobledegook, but he is such a fantastic, direct, communicator you actually buy into it. I often felt Craigy said something insightful and really clever.. then thought about it again later and wondered why it annoyed me so much.)

... I think that our success this year makes that look a very shaky contention.... (has made a number of observations very shaky IMO. As I said last year if Craigy was to convince me he was going about things the right way after all this time with no significant finals success - he had to win two finals. Many called it crazy and unfair.. well given Sando's success so far I don't believe it was. Of course... Sando now has that in front him. I'm not holding Sando to that this year though, he has leeway to make a few mistakes and learn from them yet.)

...
So, yes, it is time to say 'I told you so.'

One thing that really bothered me under Craigy was our ability to change, or acknowledge the need to. Sando has been evolving us all season and actively looking for the need to change things up. He promised us earlier in the year we still had aspects of our overall gameplan he hasn't revealed yet too.. geez if he can unveil those when it matters and have it work... I for one am loving the ride. I've barely even been upset when we lost (except for losing to the pies - again, but that's unrelated to my satisfaction in how we play)

 

[davos44]

When you watch games from last year it is difficult to see any resemblance to the team this year. There are some major differences which Sando has bought in and its made all the difference in the world.

For me it has cascaded from the pre-season work.

1. Physical strength has bred mental strength.
2. Mental strength has bred confidence
3. Confidence has bred conviction in the game plan
4. The conviction in the game plan has bred excellent execution.

Of course having a good game plan has been one of the keys to success, but Sandos preparation of the game plan he wanted to execute has made it a lot easier for them to execute.

 

[DavidSaywell]

He promised a spike. And delivered a pickaxe!!!

 

[Godallblighty]

As I said last year if Craigy was to convince me he was going about things the right way after all this time with no significant finals success - he had to win two finals. Many called it crazy and unfair.. well given Sando's success so far I don't believe it was. Of course... Sando now has that in front him. I'm not holding Sando to that this year though, he has leeway to make a few mistakes and learn from them yet.

Yes, finals are the one outstanding issue. We'll have to wait and see. However, I love that Sanderson has openly declared that his game style is designed to win finals. It certainly has all the hallmarks.

 

[cmndstab]

By this stage, I think Team DJ definitely has the right to say he told us so

I wonder how much of the turnaround has come through the merits of Sando rather than ridding ourselves of the deficiencies of Craig, but one thing is clear - his removal has been a win for the club by every possible measure.

 

[Elite Crow]

It's both Stabby. If we replaced Craig with another coach with deficiencies such as Primus, we would still be stuffed.

The beauty of Sando is his recipe is so simple. Build a great relationship with the players that they can relate to you and want to play for you. Install a game plan that involves winning the footy, getting it quick to a very good forward line and making it enjoyable.

If we lose finals, now I believe it will be because we weren't good enough, not because the game plan didn't stack up. And this is his first year, he has time to improve the side so we are good enough.

 

[amer]

It would not be that simple, though I do agree his style is less cluttered.

Innovation drives success. Sando hasn't returned these results simply by making friends with the list and throwing extra gym hours around.

Our club has moved ahead of the curve again.

 

[Glenno23]

It would not be that simple, though I do agree his style is less cluttered.

Innovation drives success. Sando hasn't returned these results simply by making friends with the list and throwing extra gym hours around.

Our club has moved ahead of the curve again.

But we still need it to pay off......

 

[Moonwatcher]

Yes, finals are the one outstanding issue. We'll have to wait and see. However, I love that Sanderson has openly declared that his game style is designed to win finals. It certainly has all the hallmarks.

I think Craig was all about "finals winning footy" too. Difference is I believe in Sando's

 

[Huntercrow]

Yes its way too soon.

It's plain dumb to compare Sando's first 16 games to Craigs last season? If you are going to make comparisons then do so at similar stages of their coaching career. I wasn't in BF during 2005 but I think the feeling would have been amazing during that first NC season considering how far back we were coming from. I remember picking us to finish last and yet we ended with 18 wins, so I think you guys are way off the "told you so" mark. Wait 5 seasons and then do your comparisons.

 

[Brown_DOG68]

Yes its way too soon.

It's plain dumb to compare Sando's first 16 games to Craigs last season? If you are going to make comparisons then do so at similar stages of their coaching career. I wasn't in BF during 2005 but I think the feeling would have been amazing during that first NC season considering how far back we were coming from. I remember picking us to finish last and yet we ended with 18 wins, so I think you guys are way off the "told you so" mark. Wait 5 seasons and then do your comparisons.

So wrong!

Neil Craig had already been a SANFL head coach, and long time AFL assistant, then took over a team that had Ricciutto, McLoed, Goodwin, Edwards, in their prime. Sure, he had a spike, and won 18 games in that season, but couldn't win the ones that mattered.

Now Sando is having his spike, and may well have losses in the finals, but to say we have to wait 5 years to compare is "plain dumb". Player lists accross the comp will be very different, as will trends of play, and teams' dominance. The only time we can do fair comparison is now - the squad Sando has to work with is effectively what Neil had to work with (yes I know there were injuries - but thats not all about luck), and the strength of opposition accross the comp is largely unchanged.

I dont think anyone is "way off" the "told you so" mark. If we perform poorly in finals, we might shift a bit further away, and Sando will have his opportunities to learn, but "way off"? Definitely not!

 

[Mr_Moogle]

Craigy had a fondness for hard-running string beans. Its clear as day that endurance took priority over strength when he was coach. I don't think this works at all in the modern game. This approach was very successful in the years prior when the press was first coming into AFL. We blitzed other teams with our speed and run. But they eventually caught up to us and our weaknesses started to show through.

I always hated how stubborn Neil Craig was. Our flaws were blatantly obvious at the end of the 2010 season (no direction going inside 50, being out-muscled at every contest, too indirect, overusing the ball) and he did absolutely nothing to rectify them. I knew he was gone the second we got thrashed by Melbourne and that was early in the season. I'm really to happy to see the back of him and his outdated playing style.

 

[jenny61_99]

I think huntercrow has some very good points. We were all enamoured with Craigy, particularly in those first couple of seasons. We played some bloody good football then. We were exciting to watch. Not unlike now. Certainly sando has done some wonderful things so far, and I'm as enamoured with him as I was Craig. Time will tell, but it is definitely too early to say I told you so. I am privately hoping like hell you get to say it loud and clear by seasons end!