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Is there evidence that God does not exist?
- Thread starter EssJayW
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The Paradox of Omnipotence
(1) God either can or cannot create a rock that is so heavy that he cannot lift it.
(2) If God can create a rock that is so heavy that he cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent.
(3) If God cannot create a rock that is so heavy that he cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent.
Therefore:
(4) God is not omnipotent.
(5) If God exists then he is omnipotent.
Therefore:
(6) God does not exist.
(1) God either can or cannot create a rock that is so heavy that he cannot lift it.
(2) If God can create a rock that is so heavy that he cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent.
(3) If God cannot create a rock that is so heavy that he cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent.
Therefore:
(4) God is not omnipotent.
(5) If God exists then he is omnipotent.
Therefore:
(6) God does not exist.
evo
Let's hit the f*ken road!
It's impossible to prove a negative.I wouldn't mind seeing some evidence that god does exhist.
I'm happy to accept Jesus probably exhisted.I very much doubt he was born by immacculant(spelling?) conception however.I further doubt he is the son of god.
I'm happy to accept Jesus probably exhisted.I very much doubt he was born by immacculant(spelling?) conception however.I further doubt he is the son of god.
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I'd say on the balance of probabilities he doesn't exist, but no one can say for certain.
Originally posted by EssJayW
Is this evidence or a play on words?
Cheers
SJW
Evidence. It's a common argument used against Omnipotence. If god can create a rock which he cannot lift, that means there's something which he cannot do (lift the rock he made). If god can't create a rock which he cannot lift, then there's also something which he cannot do (create the rock). Which ever way you look at it, god can't be omnipotent. God is supposed to be omnipotent.
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Thanks for your reply. Good food for thought. Just the last bit. No one knows if God is or isnt omnipotent or what God is supposed to be or if God does or does not exist.
I have butchered some US Constitutional Law which I just found.
More good food for thought. Thanks for you reply.
"If we do not regard any being as omnipotent then some irrevocable limitation of our creation must exist, for if all limitations on our creation were revocable, then some omnipotent power must exist. There is no contradiction in assuming that such irrevocable limitations exist; there is only the difficulty in finding them. If we insist they are there even though we cannot find them, then no being is omnipotent. That is a logically permissible solution. If we think those irrevocable limitations are not there, or if we suppose they are not, then we thereby posit at least one omnipotent being. If we do so, we have clearly lost the right to reject the assumption of omnipotence."
Cheers
SJW
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My beliefs arent important to anyone but me. But I will say that I have no judgement towards anyones religious or non religious beliefs. I get a bit peeved when one person says God exists and one person says God doesnt exist. Both statements cannot be proven. I cannot fathom infinity or eternity or that darkness above us. That little thing inside you that tells what is good and what is not. Is it real. What is it? I suppose what Eagle said is right. A little faith in things that we cannot understand.
This paradox stuff is quite interesting reading though. I suppose the definition of omnipotence is all important in considering 'The Paradox of Omnipotence.'
Heres something else I found.
Omnipotence and Logically Impossible Rocks
The paradox of omnipotence presents the theist with the question “Can God create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?” This question, it is argued, cannot be answered in a way that is consistent with God’s omnipotence. If it is affirmed that God can create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it then it must be conceded that God lacks the power to lift that rock. If it is denied that God can create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it then it must be conceded that God lacks the power to create that rock. Either way, then, it must be conceded that there is something that God cannot do, that God is not omnipotent.
The most common theistic response to this problem is to argue that God cannot create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it, but that this is entirely consistent with his being omnipotent. Omnipotence, it is suggested, is the ability to bring about any logically possible state of affairs. The existence of a rock so heavy that God cannot lift it, it is suggested, is a logically impossible state of affairs. Omnipotence, though, does not entail the ability to bring about logically impossible states of affairs, and God’s omnipotence is therefore consistent with his being unable to create such a rock. The theist thus answers the question “Can God create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?” in the negative, but nevertheless maintains that God is omnipotent.
The distinction between logically possible and logically impossible acts has to do with the idea of self-contradiction. An act the description of which is self-contradictory is a logically impossible act. All other acts are logically possible. Creating a square circle, for example, is a logically impossible act. Something is square only if it has exactly four sides. Something is a circle only if it has exactly one side. No object can have both exactly four sides and exactly one side. The idea of a square circle is thus self-contradictory, and so the act of creating a square circle is a logically impossible act. For a being to be omnipotent, then, that being must be able to perform such feats as creating the universe, stilling the Sun in the sky, and restoring the dead to life, but need not be able to create square circles or know that which is false.
The theistic response to the paradox of omnipotence based on the idea that omnipotence is limited by logical possibility rests on the claim that it is logically impossible to create a rock so heavy that God cannot lift it. God, of course, is conceived of as a being who can lift any object, no matter how heavy; there is no rock so heavy that God cannot lift it, and there could be no rock so heavy that God cannot lift it. The existence of a rock that cannot exist, of course, is a self-contradiction, a logical impossibility. Creating such a rock, then, is not the kind of feat that a being must be able to perform if he is to be omnipotent. God’s inability to create such a rock would not, it seems, compromise his omnipotence.
Cheers
SJW
Have any of you ever thought that perhaps the true nature of God is something that us humans do not have the ablility to comprehend.
Think about how insignificant we are in the overall scheme of things. Is it not arragonce to actually believe that we know it all? For those who say 'there is no God'...I'll say this...how the hell do you know??
And then for us that believe in God....you'll say likewise. How do we know.
The fact of the matter is that we both don't really know. We either believe that God does exist...or do not believe.
Now for me personally...God is real...as real as you or me. Their is no doubt whatsoever in my mind...where's my evidence. Life....nature...every day I see the sun rise (which I don't really because Im a lazy bastard)...I see evidence of God. Every time that ligtning strikes, every time I hear the sound of thunder, feel the rain that falls from the sky....I see evidence of God.
For me.....religon explains why......and science explains how.
In no way does science contradict my beliefs...and in no way does my religon contradict science. The two go hand in hand.
For those who say their is no God...well fair enough, that is your perogative, and I am sure that there are reasons for you coming to that conclusion. Your evidence....who knows, but I'm sure that you have your reasons, and your theories and possibilities that no one can dismiss.
Why....cause in respect to the question of God and Scientific evidence.....there are no answers. As a species...we are incapable of ever providing solid evidence to prove or disprove God...it goes both ways.
And why can't we prove or disprove God....because the very idea of God, the creator, an omnipotent being that we either believe in, or dismiss as a myth..that very idea transcends what we know of science...its transcends our world, our existence, our very being.
How can we ask for scientific evidence that their is/isn't a God...when the very notion of God falls outside the realms of science.
Considering that their is so much that we humans do not know, do not understand, and in reality probably cannot understand, how can we truly expect science to answer this one question which can HAVE NO scientific explanation.
We can't....so in reality what we do is answer it ourselves....to the best of our ability.
However, unfortunately....in regards to the existence of God and HIS nature.....our ability falls way short.
Only in death will we truly know. Then again..if their is no after life.....then we will not know will we.
But if thats the case...then it won't really matter will it!
Think about how insignificant we are in the overall scheme of things. Is it not arragonce to actually believe that we know it all? For those who say 'there is no God'...I'll say this...how the hell do you know??
And then for us that believe in God....you'll say likewise. How do we know.
The fact of the matter is that we both don't really know. We either believe that God does exist...or do not believe.
Now for me personally...God is real...as real as you or me. Their is no doubt whatsoever in my mind...where's my evidence. Life....nature...every day I see the sun rise (which I don't really because Im a lazy bastard)...I see evidence of God. Every time that ligtning strikes, every time I hear the sound of thunder, feel the rain that falls from the sky....I see evidence of God.
For me.....religon explains why......and science explains how.
In no way does science contradict my beliefs...and in no way does my religon contradict science. The two go hand in hand.
For those who say their is no God...well fair enough, that is your perogative, and I am sure that there are reasons for you coming to that conclusion. Your evidence....who knows, but I'm sure that you have your reasons, and your theories and possibilities that no one can dismiss.
Why....cause in respect to the question of God and Scientific evidence.....there are no answers. As a species...we are incapable of ever providing solid evidence to prove or disprove God...it goes both ways.
And why can't we prove or disprove God....because the very idea of God, the creator, an omnipotent being that we either believe in, or dismiss as a myth..that very idea transcends what we know of science...its transcends our world, our existence, our very being.
How can we ask for scientific evidence that their is/isn't a God...when the very notion of God falls outside the realms of science.
Considering that their is so much that we humans do not know, do not understand, and in reality probably cannot understand, how can we truly expect science to answer this one question which can HAVE NO scientific explanation.
We can't....so in reality what we do is answer it ourselves....to the best of our ability.
However, unfortunately....in regards to the existence of God and HIS nature.....our ability falls way short.
Only in death will we truly know. Then again..if their is no after life.....then we will not know will we.
But if thats the case...then it won't really matter will it!
What confuses the issue is for centuries organised religion - that is combined with the state have been using th promise of an afterlife to get some poor unfortunate individuals to either accept a ****ty life or do something crazy like suicide bombing.
I cannot get around all that to focus on pure spirituality.
I cannot get around all that to focus on pure spirituality.
evo
Let's hit the f*ken road!
Definately
Agreed I don't "know".I don't believe anyone can Know.Hence the quandry.
I'm happy to go with TIm56 explanation here.
To me you are just describing nature,or mother nature if you like. Why call that God? I can understand ancient civilizations calling that God,but we now have a fairly good idea why the sun rises to use your example.
See Tim56 quote.
I would like nothing more than to beleive there is someone watching out for me,thus far I havn't been able to.I envy the beatific look on guys like the Dalai Lama.Maybe I'm unenlightened,maybe I'm too rational.
God only knows.
Originally posted by evo
To me you are just describing nature,or mother nature if you like. Why call that God? I can understand ancient civilizations calling that God,but we now have a fairly good idea why the sun rises to use your example.
God only knows.
I'm not calling that God. I said for me that it is evidence of God.
I'm not for a moment saying that nature is God...no, what I'm saying is that for me nature is evidence for the existence of God. In IT terms, I think of God as the 'programmer', where nature is a 'program'...if you know what I mean. Think Matrix
No...we don't know why the sun rises....but we know how.
We don't know why...we don't know why the universe was created let alone the sun.
Could you tell me WHY the sun rises?
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Good post Lestat,
The old 'prove it' arguement is a hard one. Science will neve be able to disprove the existance of any form of god.
If science was asked to prove that a gigantic blue plastic elephant was in fact the creator of our univers it could not.
I am always curious however as to how anyone comes to believe that there is a 'god' who watches over us all.
To me, the same rules apply when talking about the blue elephant as the many gods the people of this planet have come to believe in.
I wish I could believe in a god, Im sure that it would come in handy at times, I just cant make myself accept that this is the way things are, or more to the fact, I have no reason to believe it.
cheers.
Rotation of the Earth....Nothing to do with god, unless you go deeper and say that god is responsible for the earth's rotation of course.
evo
Let's hit the f*ken road!
Originally posted by Lestat
I'm not calling that God. I said for me that it is evidence of God.
I'm not for a moment saying that nature is God...no, what I'm saying is that for me nature is evidence for the existence of God. In IT terms, I think of God as the 'programmer', where nature is a 'program'...if you know what I mean. Think Matrix
No...we don't know why the sun rises....but we know how.
We don't know why...we don't know why the universe was created let alone the sun.
Could you tell me WHY the sun rises?
Why does there need to be a why?It's just the "nature" of things.
Is it not conceivable that the program as u call it evolved through the big bang,atoms splitting,evolution?Why does it need an omnipresent guiding hand?
God exists inside me. He exists inside all of us. He is everything to everybody and therefore only I can say whether he exists for me.
He is nothing to me, has nothing to do with me, and he is not inside me.
You may believe that he is inside you and thats great but hold back on telling people that he is inside them.
That is a statement of a fool.
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