Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack III

[Chief]

Continued in Part IV

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack IV - UN Report: Israel is an Apartheid state. Probable Case of Genocide

Continued from Part III https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack-iii.1381570/ Original Post, October 7, 2023: Israel declares state of war In response to the attacks, which appear to have caught the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) by surprise, Israel has...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[sr36]

99% of the population of Israel are settlers.

The problem isn't Jewish exceptionalism because it is no different to any other religion based exceptionalism, which is rife worldwide.

If you're born in a place are you still a settler? Are current white Australian's settlers? And what are all the newer Australians not directly linked to Australian colonialism, they'd have to be settlers too? More Israelis were born in Israel than Australians in Australia. Like it or not, it's the only home that 75% of Israelis have ever known. The clock can't be wound back to the 1800s when Jews started moving en masse and claiming land in Palestine. Those Jews are already dead. The ones there now are from that land mass - just as the Palestinians are. They're not Europeans any more than I am.

 

[Number37]

What regions did the majority of the population of Israel, come from?

90% of Jews at the start of the century were Ashkenazis.
Ashkenazis, depending on who you speak to, are either Central or Eastern European.
It's a contentious issue because it means the difference between being a convert to Judaism or a real McCoy Jew.
Obviously the Jewish people claim they are descendants of the real McCoy Jews, but it has never been proven.
That's because real McCoy Jews are Judeans.
The Judeans' DNA has never been sequenced simply because there are no Judeans around.
Instead, the DNA boffins have used Palestinian & other Middle Eastern DNA as a proxy for Judean DNA.

So where did they come from?
Not Israel, which only came into existence in 1948.
Given that 90% of Jews are Ashkenazi, who are Central/Eastern European, so logic dictates that they came from Europe.

 

[Number37]

If you're born in a place are you still a settler? Are current white Australian's settlers? And what are all the newer Australians not directly linked to Australian colonialism, they'd have to be settlers too? More Israelis were born in Israel than Australians in Australia. Like it or not, it's the only home that 75% of Israelis have ever known. The clock can't be wound back to the 1800s when Jews started moving en masse and claiming land in Palestine. Those Jews are already dead. The ones there now are from that land mass - just as the Palestinians are. They're not Europeans any more than I am.

Individual Australians are not settlers. Australians are settlers and will always be settlers. You can't unwind history.

 

[Number37]

No.

Can you show your statistics that support your statement that Israel has the "highest skin cancer rate in the world"?

Because you used it as evidence that they don't 'belong' in that region.

You're a fool Harry Potter.
It's not that they have, or had, the highest skin cancer rates in the world.
It's the rate at which they are diagnosed with skin cancer compared to Arabs in Israel.
The rate is ridiculously disproportionate.

 

[_Cerberus_]

We don't hate Israelis, just the ones who support the actions of the IDF and Israeli Government.

It's the Israeli Govt who tries to entangle Israeli Govt crimes with anti-semitism through public statements and conscription.

Death Death to the IDF is not attacking Israelis, just those who serve in the IDF and don't speak out about atrocities.

The problem is, most Israelis support the actions of Netanyahu. Like Russia and North Korea, they live with largely a corrupt government, state controlled media, and indoctrinated schools. They've had a whole generation of brain washing done. Its not like America where less than a third of the population like what Trump is doing. So it's harder to call sympathy for Russians, Israelis etc, given a majority support their own countries actions and think the rest of the world is wrong.

 

[Markfs]

You're so ignorant and boring.

You're not the Palestinian cause... You're not the victim... Stop larping as some figure of importance and impact. You're just a shitposter who has no idea about any of this.

I had to look that up

LARP noun. live action role-playing: a fantasy role-playing game in which participants dress in costume, use props, and act out roles.

so you're one of the guys in palestinian lingerie?

 

[CM86]

I had to look that up

LARP noun. live action role-playing: a fantasy role-playing game in which participants dress in costume, use props, and act out roles.

so you're one of the guys in palestinian lingerie?

Yes, you're larping.

Look at you making up yet another little fantasy to play with in your mind.

 

[CM86]

90% of Jews at the start of the century were Ashkenazis.
Ashkenazis, depending on who you speak to, are either Central or Eastern European.
It's a contentious issue because it means the difference between being a convert to Judaism or a real McCoy Jew.
Obviously the Jewish people claim they are descendants of the real McCoy Jews, but it has never been proven.
That's because real McCoy Jews are Judeans.
The Judeans' DNA has never been sequenced simply because there are no Judeans around.
Instead, the DNA boffins have used Palestinian & other Middle Eastern DNA as a proxy for Judean DNA.

So where did they come from?
Not Israel, which only came into existence in 1948.
Given that 90% of Jews are Ashkenazi, who are Central/Eastern European, so logic dictates that they came from Europe.

That is pretzel logic.
The amount of twisting around to try and pretend that Israelis almost entirely come from Europe.


You can hate Israel, you can hate the IDF, you can call out the war crimes and genocide.
**** Israel, **** the IDF. Netanyahu should be hung.

You don't need to make things up about the people.
You don't need to lie about civilians.
If you don't know something, don't make things up to suit.

Hate the actions, not the people.
Hate the outcomes, not the race.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews#Post-1948_dispersal

After the establishment of the State of Israel and subsequent 1948 Arab–Israeli War, most Mizrahim were either expelled by their Arab rulers or chose to leave and emigrated to Israel. According to the 2009 Statistical Abstract of Israel, 50.2% of Israeli Jews are of Mizrahi or Sephardi origin.​

 

[CM86]

You're a fool Harry Potter.
It's not that they have, or had, the highest skin cancer rates in the world.
It's the rate at which they are diagnosed with skin cancer compared to Arabs in Israel.
The rate is ridiculously disproportionate.

She doesn't understand that Israel has the highest skin cancer rate in the world because all these people calling Israel their "homeland" don't originate from Israel, if they did originate from Israel then, like the rest of the indigenous population, they wouldn't be getting skin cancer at such alarming rates.

It's a talking point to say that Jews don't belong in the Middle East. And that's how you were using it.

Israel didn't 'exist' until 48, but it doesn't mean that Jewish people didn't live in that region prior to the 'existence' of Israel.

This kind of rhetoric doesn't support or help Palestinians.

 

[Markfs]

over 1000 settlers in the west bank in 1948 and around half a million in recent years... they must like to breed a lot...maybe the palestinian lingerie is the source..

Settler population	1948	1972	1977	1980	1983	1993	2004	2007	2010	2014	2018	2019	2020	2022
Total	2,810	10,531			99,795	269,200	423,913	467,478	512,769		645,800		671,700	733,000
West Bank (excluding Jerusalem)	480 (see Gush Etzion)	1,182	3,200[111] -4,400[112]	17,400	22,800	111,600	234,500	276,500[113]	314,100[84]	400,000[104]	427,800[114]	441,600[115]	451,700[115]	503,000[116]
Gaza Strip 2	30 (see Kfar Darom)	700 1	–	900	4,800	7,826	0
East Jerusalem	2,300 (see Jewish Quarter, Atarot, Neve Yaakov)	8,649	–	76,095	152,800	181,587	189,708	198,629	–	218,000[114]	–	220,000[117]	230,000[118][119]

 

[Scotland]

'Why would Israel agree to allow the Palestinian people self-determination?' is kind of the point of it all though. So long as the Palestinian people remain stateless, lacking self-determination and under military occupation, there will always be some who turn to violence.

Self-determination always comes up in the context of Palestinian statehoood and "two state solution" when Israel is winning a conflict. Self determination and statehood aren't interchangeable terms through. Yes the Palestinians would like a state in 2025, because the only other "peaceful" alternative is being absorbed into Israel. They would also like the state to be bordered by Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan but that isn't happening. I've seen people argue all of the area allocated to an "Arab state" under the UN partition plan belongs to Palestine, and I've seen people argue that uti possidetis juris applies and therefore 100% of the territory belongs to Israel. Neither pass the pub test.

This piece (https://opiniojuris.org/2024/09/03/...he-territory-of-mandatory-palestine-part-two/) includes the following:

"Though Arab leaders in Palestine may not have availed themselves of the opportunity to declare an independent Palestinian State in 1948, Israel’s existence is precisely predicated upon the two-State solution of the Partition Plan. If the State of Palestine had been declared in 1948, there appears little doubt that the prohibition of the acquisition of territory by force would have held sway and prevented enlargement of Israel’s territory beyond that envisaged in the Partition Plan."

So the author rejects Israel's legal claim (i.e. their claim in law, not whether anyone thinks they deserve it) that they own all of it by default the position is based on "if" a Palestinian state was created in 1948. Which it wasn't. Following that logic through Israel doesn't exist as a state because Palestine doesn't exist as a state.

The UN came up with the partition plan. One side accepted it, one side rejected it.
The West Bank and Gaza were controlled for two decades by Jordan and Egypt respectively. Palestinian states created: 0.
Israel withdrew all citizens from Gaza 20 years ago. Palestinian states created: 0.
Whether people want to pretend this didn't happen and/or blindly blame Israel for every single thing or not the history is written.

What world do people live in where they think that both sides will just go back to the 1947 plan (or even a fairer version that gives less territory to the Jews) and everyone will live happily ever after? Naive nonsense. The two sides are as far apart as they have ever been. And people hold onto this ridiculous notion that 4-5 million people who were not born in Israel and have probably never even been there will "return" and claim property rights from a generation or two ago. This is not helping anyone.

There's no real scenario where a Palestinian state develops the military power to invade and occupy Israel the way Israel has done to them either. That's largely a product of long-term support from the US.

Agreed. But Israel aren't concerned with being annexed or conquered or occupied by a Palestinian state. That's not a realistic outcome.

Hamas or equivalent could be 1% of the population in Gaza or the West Bank and it's still a threat to Israeli citizens. Tel Aviv is about 10km or so from the "67 border". Regardless of who governs the territories the threat hanging over Israel's head is always going to be the level broader support in the Islamic world for the destruction of the state of Israel. Which is what Hamas and Hezbollah want and for some unknown reason people want to pretend is not the case. Hamas did not attack Israel on October 7 2023 for Palestinian statehood. The mental gymnastics people go through to justify that Hamas exists and violence is justified because of Israeli occupation but also Hamas doesn't represent the people of Gaza and Israel should negotiate with Hamas but also Hamas is an unelected terrorist organisation is mind boggling.

Why would anyone agree to a "state" if the neighbour with an 80 year history of taking their territory where that neighbour retains military dominance?

Because the Israelis already have a state and the Palestinians don't. That's the crux of the last 77 years. Sometimes you negotiate from a position of weakness and sometimes you negotiate from a position of strength. State or no state Israel already has military dominance. If there is no Palestinian state agreed to then the same arguments will continue for another 77 years. The Palestinian territories can't be a sovereign state and territory of other Arab nations and under British Mandate and no man's land and part of Israel at the same time.

Israel expanded its territory in the 1948 war fighting the Arab League, then did so again in the 1967 war fighting Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. They gave back the Sinai Peninsula (never part of Mandatory Palestine, part of the "Greater Israel" nuff from thousands of years ago) to establish peace and diplomatic relations with Egypt which they maintain. The Palestinian list of regional allies is shorter now than it was in the 1940s and 1960s.

I don't see Israel conquering part or all of Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iraq on the basis of some theological claim of "Greater Israel". They don't have the capacity, it's not in their interest as a state (or the interest of their master the US) and invading the few Arab Muslim states they have normalised relations with would just lead to the one thing they fear most which is the entire Muslim world wanting to wipe them from the map. But I do think they will govern all of Gaza and the West Bank unless there is serious intervention from a third party and I don't see anyone coming to the party right now. What Israel is doing currently is horrific.

 

[Scotland]

90% of Jews at the start of the century were Ashkenazis.

The start of the 20th or 21st century? The majority of people living in Israel today were born in Israel or Africa/Asia, not Europe.

 

[Scotland]

The problem is, most Israelis support the actions of Netanyahu. Like Russia and North Korea, they live with largely a corrupt government, state controlled media, and indoctrinated schools. They've had a whole generation of brain washing done. Its not like America where less than a third of the population like what Trump is doing. So it's harder to call sympathy for Russians, Israelis etc, given a majority support their own countries actions and think the rest of the world is wrong.

Do they? And how many Palestinians support Hamas?

According to this the majority Netanyahu him gone.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/72-5-of-israelis-believe-netanyahu-should-take-responsibility-for-oct-7-and-resign/

"72.5% of Israelis believe Netanyahu should take responsibility for Oct. 7 and resign"

According to this 40% of Gazans supported Hamas in October 2023 and that's now down to 20%.

We asked the people of Gaza how they saw their future – this is what we found | Nils Mallock

Support for Hamas is declining – no obvious alternative has emerged, but our poll shows there are reasons to be hopeful, says Nils Mallock, a research fellow at King’s College London

www.theguardian.com

People tend to believe what they want based on the position they already hold. 30% of Israelis supporting Netanyahu and 20% of Gazans supporting Hamas isn't sexy. They both need to go. ASAP.

 

[Markfs]

Self-determination always comes up in the context of Palestinian statehoood and "two state solution" when Israel is winning a conflict. Self determination and statehood aren't interchangeable terms through. Yes the Palestinians would like a state in 2025, because the only other "peaceful" alternative is being absorbed into Israel. They would also like the state to be bordered by Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan but that isn't happening. I've seen people argue all of the area allocated to an "Arab state" under the UN partition plan belongs to Palestine, and I've seen people argue that uti possidetis juris applies and therefore 100% of the territory belongs to Israel. Neither pass the pub test.

This piece (https://opiniojuris.org/2024/09/03/...he-territory-of-mandatory-palestine-part-two/) includes the following:

"Though Arab leaders in Palestine may not have availed themselves of the opportunity to declare an independent Palestinian State in 1948, Israel’s existence is precisely predicated upon the two-State solution of the Partition Plan. If the State of Palestine had been declared in 1948, there appears little doubt that the prohibition of the acquisition of territory by force would have held sway and prevented enlargement of Israel’s territory beyond that envisaged in the Partition Plan."

So the author rejects Israel's legal claim (i.e. their claim in law, not whether anyone thinks they deserve it) that they own all of it by default the position is based on "if" a Palestinian state was created in 1948. Which it wasn't. Following that logic through Israel doesn't exist as a state because Palestine doesn't exist as a state.

The UN came up with the partition plan. One side accepted it, one side rejected it.
The West Bank and Gaza were controlled for two decades by Jordan and Egypt respectively. Palestinian states created: 0.
Israel withdrew all citizens from Gaza 20 years ago. Palestinian states created: 0.
Whether people want to pretend this didn't happen and/or blindly blame Israel for every single thing or not the history is written.

What world do people live in where they think that both sides will just go back to the 1947 plan (or even a fairer version that gives less territory to the Jews) and everyone will live happily ever after? Naive nonsense. The two sides are as far apart as they have ever been. And people hold onto this ridiculous notion that 4-5 million people who were not born in Israel and have probably never even been there will "return" and claim property rights from a generation or two ago. This is not helping anyone.



Agreed. But Israel aren't concerned with being annexed or conquered or occupied by a Palestinian state. That's not a realistic outcome.

Hamas or equivalent could be 1% of the population in Gaza or the West Bank and it's still a threat to Israeli citizens. Tel Aviv is about 10km or so from the "67 border". Regardless of who governs the territories the threat hanging over Israel's head is always going to be the level broader support in the Islamic world for the destruction of the state of Israel. Which is what Hamas and Hezbollah want and for some unknown reason people want to pretend is not the case. Hamas did not attack Israel on October 7 2023 for Palestinian statehood. The mental gymnastics people go through to justify that Hamas exists and violence is justified because of Israeli occupation but also Hamas doesn't represent the people of Gaza and Israel should negotiate with Hamas but also Hamas is an unelected terrorist organisation is mind boggling.



Because the Israelis already have a state and the Palestinians don't. That's the crux of the last 77 years. Sometimes you negotiate from a position of weakness and sometimes you negotiate from a position of strength. State or no state Israel already has military dominance. If there is no Palestinian state agreed to then the same arguments will continue for another 77 years. The Palestinian territories can't be a sovereign state and territory of other Arab nations and under British Mandate and no man's land and part of Israel at the same time.

Israel expanded its territory in the 1948 war fighting the Arab League, then did so again in the 1967 war fighting Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. They gave back the Sinai Peninsula (never part of Mandatory Palestine, part of the "Greater Israel" nuff from thousands of years ago) to establish peace and diplomatic relations with Egypt which they maintain. The Palestinian list of regional allies is shorter now than it was in the 1940s and 1960s.

I don't see Israel conquering part or all of Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iraq on the basis of some theological claim of "Greater Israel". They don't have the capacity, it's not in their interest as a state (or the interest of their master the US) and invading the few Arab Muslim states they have normalised relations with would just lead to the one thing they fear most which is the entire Muslim world wanting to wipe them from the map. But I do think they will govern all of Gaza and the West Bank unless there is serious intervention from a third party and I don't see anyone coming to the party right now. What Israel is doing currently is horrific.

yes you're right, although I didnt read most of it. The next key date will be when land elsewhere is offered to the palestinians, probably paid for by US jewish money although the US govt will probably be conned into paying as well. If the palestinians accept, you're off the hook. If they dont, you'll have to kill them....which I'm sure they will....probably starve them to save money.

 

[Markfs]

Netanyahu's popularity has improved this year and he is ahead of the opposition leader, although that's irrelevant if he cant put together a coalition of parties to form gov't. The people say that they want him out but they're always going to find someone to blame, arent they... If he has agreed to a truce, it's probably to get the hostages back. That will disband any protests in israel about the war....

 

[Markfs]

• Israeli Justice Minister Yariv Levin says the current times offer a “historic opportunity” to seize the occupied West Bank, Israeli media reports.

 

[Markfs]

• Israeli Foreign Minister Gideon Saar has called on Germany, France and the UK – the three European signatories to a nuclear deal with Iran in 2015 – to impose new sanctions on Tehran.

gideon is rather exceptional isnt he....

 

[Aristotle Pickett the3rd]

Unrelenting war crimes from a genocidal regime.

'Shock and grief’ as senior doctor killed in Israeli airstrike in Gaza
Marwan al-Sultan, a renowned cardiologist and director of the Indonesian hospital, is the 70th healthcare worker to be killed by Israeli attacks in the past 50 days, says Palestinian medical organisation.'

‘Shock and grief’ as senior doctor killed in Israeli airstrike in Gaza

Marwan al-Sultan, a renowned cardiologist and director of the Indonesian hospital, is the 70th healthcare worker to be killed by Israeli attacks in the past 50 days, says Palestinian medical organisation

www.theguardian.com

 

[Saint]

Self-determination always comes up in the context of Palestinian statehoood and "two state solution" when Israel is winning a conflict. Self determination and statehood aren't interchangeable terms through. Yes the Palestinians would like a state in 2025, because the only other "peaceful" alternative is being absorbed into Israel. They would also like the state to be bordered by Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan but that isn't happening. I've seen people argue all of the area allocated to an "Arab state" under the UN partition plan belongs to Palestine, and I've seen people argue that uti possidetis juris applies and therefore 100% of the territory belongs to Israel. Neither pass the pub test.

This piece (https://opiniojuris.org/2024/09/03/...he-territory-of-mandatory-palestine-part-two/) includes the following:

"Though Arab leaders in Palestine may not have availed themselves of the opportunity to declare an independent Palestinian State in 1948, Israel’s existence is precisely predicated upon the two-State solution of the Partition Plan. If the State of Palestine had been declared in 1948, there appears little doubt that the prohibition of the acquisition of territory by force would have held sway and prevented enlargement of Israel’s territory beyond that envisaged in the Partition Plan."

So the author rejects Israel's legal claim (i.e. their claim in law, not whether anyone thinks they deserve it) that they own all of it by default the position is based on "if" a Palestinian state was created in 1948. Which it wasn't. Following that logic through Israel doesn't exist as a state because Palestine doesn't exist as a state.

The UN came up with the partition plan. One side accepted it, one side rejected it.
The West Bank and Gaza were controlled for two decades by Jordan and Egypt respectively. Palestinian states created: 0.
Israel withdrew all citizens from Gaza 20 years ago. Palestinian states created: 0.
Whether people want to pretend this didn't happen and/or blindly blame Israel for every single thing or not the history is written.

What world do people live in where they think that both sides will just go back to the 1947 plan (or even a fairer version that gives less territory to the Jews) and everyone will live happily ever after? Naive nonsense. The two sides are as far apart as they have ever been. And people hold onto this ridiculous notion that 4-5 million people who were not born in Israel and have probably never even been there will "return" and claim property rights from a generation or two ago. This is not helping anyone.



Agreed. But Israel aren't concerned with being annexed or conquered or occupied by a Palestinian state. That's not a realistic outcome.

Hamas or equivalent could be 1% of the population in Gaza or the West Bank and it's still a threat to Israeli citizens. Tel Aviv is about 10km or so from the "67 border". Regardless of who governs the territories the threat hanging over Israel's head is always going to be the level broader support in the Islamic world for the destruction of the state of Israel. Which is what Hamas and Hezbollah want and for some unknown reason people want to pretend is not the case. Hamas did not attack Israel on October 7 2023 for Palestinian statehood. The mental gymnastics people go through to justify that Hamas exists and violence is justified because of Israeli occupation but also Hamas doesn't represent the people of Gaza and Israel should negotiate with Hamas but also Hamas is an unelected terrorist organisation is mind boggling.



Because the Israelis already have a state and the Palestinians don't. That's the crux of the last 77 years. Sometimes you negotiate from a position of weakness and sometimes you negotiate from a position of strength. State or no state Israel already has military dominance. If there is no Palestinian state agreed to then the same arguments will continue for another 77 years. The Palestinian territories can't be a sovereign state and territory of other Arab nations and under British Mandate and no man's land and part of Israel at the same time.

Israel expanded its territory in the 1948 war fighting the Arab League, then did so again in the 1967 war fighting Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. They gave back the Sinai Peninsula (never part of Mandatory Palestine, part of the "Greater Israel" nuff from thousands of years ago) to establish peace and diplomatic relations with Egypt which they maintain. The Palestinian list of regional allies is shorter now than it was in the 1940s and 1960s.

I don't see Israel conquering part or all of Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iraq on the basis of some theological claim of "Greater Israel". They don't have the capacity, it's not in their interest as a state (or the interest of their master the US) and invading the few Arab Muslim states they have normalised relations with would just lead to the one thing they fear most which is the entire Muslim world wanting to wipe them from the map. But I do think they will govern all of Gaza and the West Bank unless there is serious intervention from a third party and I don't see anyone coming to the party right now. What Israel is doing currently is horrific.

You took a lot of time, but missed an important fact. A Palestinian state has, in fact, been declared. It is recognised by 147 of 193 member states of the UN. Compared to 164 which recognise Israel.

November 15 1988 was when the state was declared. Later than Israel, but this state is recognised by everyone except Israel (and the US and a few others), just like the bordering nations of Israel don't recognise what Israel says are its borders, Israel doesn't recognise Palestine's borders. That's essentially why the've been at war for 70 years.

 

[Number37]

It's a talking point to say that Jews don't belong in the Middle East. And that's how you were using it.

Israel didn't 'exist' until 48, but it doesn't mean that Jewish people didn't live in that region prior to the 'existence' of Israel.

This kind of rhetoric doesn't support or help Palestinians.

You are making shit up.
There is a difference between saying they're not indigenous and they don't belong.
It's easy to conflate the 2 when the purpose is to make accusations of antisemitism.
It is their claim that they are indigenous. A claim which is unproven, for the simple fact there is no way of doing so.
That claim can be challenged with basic facts. Facts which are conveniently ignored.

The question was 'where did the Israeli people come from'? Not 'where did the Jews come from?'
Conflation 101. The purpose of which, is again, the usual BS.

It's not rhetoric. It's facts.
It helps the Palestinians because people have been led to believe that the Palestinians are somehow intruding on Jewish land when they have been there for thousands of years, from before the start of Judaism, and they never left.
Much of that is done by calling them Arabs, as a means of both insulting them and misleading people about their origins.
The same people who scream antisemitism at every turn, have for decades engaged in demonizing the Palestinian people and the only reason they get away with that is by misrepresenting facts, AKA lying.

It needs to be called out. There's 3 regular posters in these threads who do it all the time.

 

[Number37]

That is pretzel logic.
The amount of twisting around to try and pretend that Israelis almost entirely come from Europe.

For centuries, 90% of Jews lived in Europe, somehow magically they are now not from Europe.

Pretzel logic.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If you're born in a place are you still a settler? Are current white Australian's settlers? And what are all the newer Australians not directly linked to Australian colonialism, they'd have to be settlers too? More Israelis were born in Israel than Australians in Australia. Like it or not, it's the only home that 75% of Israelis have ever known. The clock can't be wound back to the 1800s when Jews started moving en masse and claiming land in Palestine. Those Jews are already dead. The ones there now are from that land mass - just as the Palestinians are. They're not Europeans any more than I am.

I guess the Israeli's who had generations of history in Syria are now settlers.

 

[sr36]

Individual Australians are not settlers. Australians are settlers and will always be settlers. You can't unwind history.

No you can't unwind history. That's the point.

When is it history and when is it still part of the present? Are 1770 and 1948 still part of the present - what about Xis various periods where Han Chinese had control of the land. Putin's Soviet Union dreams? Smotrich's mythical BCE period? And when we're doing the Americas - do we choose the pre-Columbus datre or go back further and decide which of the indigenous Nations are the rightful owners.

The whole world is a product of invasion and colonisation and our ancestry is spread out across the entire planet.

Do we ethnically cleanse Palestine back to 1947? Australia back to 1769? America to whatever date? China to the various dates where the Han Chinese controlled a region. Some period of the Soviet Union for Putin. Some mythical BCE period for Smotrich and friends? And when we're doing it - what do we do with all the people whose ancestry is mixed - as in all of us.

 

[CM86]

You are making shit up.
There is a difference between saying they're not indigenous and they don't belong.
It's easy to conflate the 2 when the purpose is to make accusations of antisemitism.
It is their claim that they are indigenous. A claim which is unproven, for the simple fact there is no way of doing so.
That claim can be challenged with basic facts. Facts which are conveniently ignored.

The question was 'where did the Israeli people come from'? Not 'where did the Jews come from?'
Conflation 101. The purpose of which, is again, the usual BS.

It's not rhetoric. It's facts.
It helps the Palestinians because people have been led to believe that the Palestinians are somehow intruding on Jewish land when they have been there for thousands of years, from before the start of Judaism, and they never left.
Much of that is done by calling them Arabs, as a means of both insulting them and misleading people about their origins.
The same people who scream antisemitism at every turn, have for decades engaged in demonizing the Palestinian people and the only reason they get away with that is by misrepresenting facts, AKA lying.

It needs to be called out. There's 3 regular posters in these threads who do it all the time.

I don't understand why you're being so unreasonable about this.

You could easily just say that you misspoke or whatever. Instead you're trying to turn it around on me and attribute aspects to me that I don't hold.

You said this.

Israel has the highest skin cancer rate in the world because all these people calling Israel their "homeland" don't originate from Israel, if they did originate from Israel then, like the rest of the indigenous population, they wouldn't be getting skin cancer at such alarming rates.

And I corrected you on it.
You are now seemingly agreeing with me on that point, but instead of agreeing, you're trying to dismiss it and paint me as a Zionist with arguments I haven't made and that I don't support.

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/...s-second-highest-skin-cancer-rate-2024-04-26/

Data from 2022 on skin cancer rates worldwide show that Israel ranks 23rd, not highest “outside Australasia” or “second highest in the world”, contrary to posts online tying a statistic from a 21-year-old newspaper report to a narrative that people in Israel are not native to their region.​

Social media posts citing the article include captions such as: “Israel has the highest skin cancer rate outside Australasia. Like in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, this is what naturally transpires when white neo-colonial Europeans claim the land as their 'own'. Indigenous apparently?”​

Another post on Facebook, opens new tab shows a screenshot of the article headline: “Israel's Skin Cancer Rate Second Highest in the World” and captions the image: “Israel has the second highest skin cancer rate worldwide, because their citizens of European descent can't handle the sun of that region...... Tell me again how 'Israelis' are indigenous to the Palestinian land.”​

I've provided information, stats and evidence for my positions. You're just ignoring it and trying to imply that Jews didn't have a large population in the Middle East region prior to the 'existence' of Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews#Post-1948_dispersal

After the establishment of the State of Israel and subsequent 1948 Arab–Israeli War, most Mizrahim were either expelled by their Arab rulers or chose to leave and emigrated to Israel. According to the 2009 Statistical Abstract of Israel, 50.2% of Israeli Jews are of Mizrahi or Sephardi origin.​

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For centuries, 90% of Jews lived in Europe, somehow magically they are now not from Europe.

Pretzel logic.

Did anything happen prior to 1948 that could have impacted the total number of Jews living in Europe???????


https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/articles/zb48dp3#zqjsf82
encyclopedia.ushmm.org

In 1933, approximately 9.5 million Jews lived in Europe, comprising 1.7% of the total European population. This number represented more than 60 percent of the world's Jewish population at that time, estimated at 15.3 million.​

​

Again, I don't understand why you're being so unreasonable about this. You're normally very logical and engaging.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

For centuries, 90% of Jews lived in Europe, somehow magically they are now not from Europe.

Pretzel logic.