Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

[Roby]

I don't disagree - I was merely responding to the claim from the poster that it's the "Palestinian's land", which isn't true as it's more complex than that. Both Jews and Arab have their own claims to the land and you can't deny history before 1948

That's not what you said the first time. You said the Arabs invaded it. There were people there before the Jews, archeological events points to that.

I'll take archeological evidence over religious texts as proof, thank you very much.

 

[Kurve]

How many members of Hamas are there out of over 2 million who live in the region?

A couple of years ago estimates at 30,000. More now likely since they'd been planning the attack on Israel for two years and likely recruiting. That wouldn't factor in the willing of young men coming of age with not a lot of hope for a decent job and a future who see fighting for Hamas and the Palestinian people as righteous cause and a chance to play their part.

 

[Pommie Docker]

I don't disagree - I was merely responding to the claim from the poster that it's the "Palestinian's land", which isn't true as it's more complex than that. Both Jews and Arab have their own claims to the land and you can't deny history before 1948

Fair sorry, easy to misread the wider context of the response.

Agree history is complex and rather than choosing random dates, work on solutions for the people who are there now.

 

[LongBombFromOutside50]

That's not what you said the first time. You said the Arabs invaded it. There were people there before the Jews, archeological events points to that.

I'll take archeological evidence over religious texts as proof, thank you very much.

The Arabs did invade it, multiple times.

It has been proven that Jews of many types, including Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews and Palestinians share the majority of their ancestry with over 90 samples of ancient DNA extracted from remains found in Israel-Palestine and surrounding areas from over 3,000 years ago.

Palestinians show a majority of both paternal and maternal ancestry coming from the Levant with a minority of paternal ancestry coming from the Arabian peninsula, as well as a majority of maternal ancestry coming from the Southern Levant

So again, my original post was to refute a claim that it is Israel is "Palestinians' land", because the majority of the population was Arab in 1948. Clearly, it is not as simple as that

 

[Gethelred]

• Shoot a civilian at a music festival deliberately
• Fire a shell into the HQ of an “indiscriminate” terrorist group after they have attacked your people and inadvertently kill a civilian

Which is worse?

This, deprived of the real circumstances compelling one to choose between the two, feels awful as a hypothetical.

It's also a little fallacious.

 

[schneebly111]

Agree history is complex and rather than choosing random dates, work on solutions for the people who are there now.

Yeah I really don’t care about who was living in that land 2000 years ago. If that’s the standard some hold for who should be there now then feel free as an Australia to move back to Europe or wherever if you aren’t Indigenous.

Maybe we need a circuit breaker as this thread has descended into posts of “is it worse to shoot kids or bury them under rubble”.

FFS can’t we see this argument is going nowhere.

I need some humour:

 

[sdfc]

Because Hamas did start it.

"Palestinian land"? The Jews are indigenous to the state of Israel (formerly the Levant), before the Arabs invaded it. Do you need a history lesson? There is no Palestinian state because they didn't accept UN181. To do so would be to accept the existence of Israel.

The bedouen super breeders didn't replace the levant population. That's just an Israeli fantasy to justify their abhorrant behaviour.

If the Palestinians have been "oppressed", the why haven't their elected government Hamas done anything to improve their conditions? Why didn't they invest in infrastructure instead of weapons to attack Israel? They've been in government since 2006 and they still have no infrastructure for their own water or electricity. Why? Because their elected government Hamas only cared about destroying Israel, not about the Palestinian people.

Gaza is a ghetto that's been under blockade for 16 years. Hamas might be s**t but they're a creature of Israeli policy.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

No civilian death is morally worse
By definition they are civilians and have no right to be a casualty of terrorist activities or war directly or indirectly

My stance on this has been consistent and will remain so

You’d better hope you never find yourself in either situation.

 

[Glaeken Oracle]

The general scale and when the response becomes disproportionate is a different issue.

I’m responding to specific claims that all civilian deaths are equally bad morally.

Please grade these types of civilian deaths on a moral scale.

Ukrainians killed by Russian bombing and/or Russian torture
Israelis killed by Hamas terrorists
Gazans killed by IDF under orders
Women in Australia killed by domestic violence (e.g. Hannah Clarke)
Children starving to death in the African Horn due to western disinterest
Jews and minorities killed by Germans during WW2 (heads up: my immediate family member was in Dachau as a political prisoner, tortured and injected with disease as an experiment)
Victims of mass shootings in the US in 2023
Victims of Port Arthur (includes 2 toddlers)

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Ok so he we have terrorism sympathizing again. You're just not sympathizing with Hamas terrorists.

I don’t think you know what a terrorist is.

 

[sdfc]

Please grade these types of civilian deaths on a moral scale.

Ukrainians killed by Russian bombing
Israelis killed by Hamas terrorists
Gazans killed by IDF under orders
Women in Australia killed by domestic violence (e.g. Hannah Clarke)
Children starving to death in the African Horn due to western disinterest
Jews and minorities killed by Germans during WW2 (heads up: my immediate family member was in Dachau as a political prisoner, tortured and injected with disease as an experiment)
Victims of mass shootings in the US in 2023
Victims of Port Arthur (includes 2 toddlers)

What about civilian deaths due to a complete complete blockade? Do they count?

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

A couple of years ago estimates at 30,000. More now likely since they'd been planning the attack on Israel for two years and likely recruiting. That wouldn't factor in the willing of young men coming of age with not a lot of hope for a decent job and a future who see fighting for Hamas and the Palestinian people as righteous cause and a chance to play their part.

There’s a reason they are likened to Isis.

 

[Glaeken Oracle]

What about civilian deaths due to a complete complete blockade? Do they count?

I just grabbed some examples to make a point - it's not an exhaustive list, feel free to add your own.

 

[Smeg Head]

Ukraine are actively supporting Palestinian genocide, particularly their PM. Should I support him?

It doesn't mean Putin isn't another evil campaigner, just that there is perspective. If Ukraine can't see how they are in the same boat as Palestine, than that's on them. The only thing they share similarity with Israel is that they have US backing.

Absolute shittest of shittest takes

 

[sdfc]

I just grabbed some examples to make a point - it's not an exhaustive list, feel free to add your own.

I wasn't having a go at you.

 

[HairyO]

The bedouen super breeders didn't replace the levant population. That's just an Israeli fantasy to justify their abhorrant behaviour.

Gaza is a ghetto that's been under blockade for 16 years. Hamas might be s**t but they're a creature of Israeli policy.

They are a creature of Iranian policy. Iran doesnt give a s**t about the plight of the Palestinians. The destruction of Israel is the only thing they care about.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

I don’t think you know what a terrorist is.

Palestinian civilians not affiliated with Hamas are not terrorists.
The Israel government is breaking International law and Uk and USA are backing them. Those are facts.

 

[ElectricG]

Please grade these types of civilian deaths on a moral scale.

Ukrainians killed by Russian bombing and/or Russian torture
Israelis killed by Hamas terrorists
Gazans killed by IDF under orders
Women in Australia killed by domestic violence (e.g. Hannah Clarke)
Children starving to death in the African Horn due to western disinterest
Jews and minorities killed by Germans during WW2 (heads up: my immediate family member was in Dachau as a political prisoner, tortured and injected with disease as an experiment)
Victims of mass shootings in the US in 2023
Victims of Port Arthur (includes 2 toddlers)

Umm I can’t split a lot of those. Some seem worse than others.

 

[sdfc]

They are a creature of Iranian policy. Iran doesnt give a s**t about the plight of the Palestinians. The destruction of Israel is the only thing they care about.

Brutalized populations are fertile ground for extremists.

 

[por_please_ya]

Umm I can’t split a lot of those. Some seem worse than others.

And I think that's the point...

 

[The Perfect Stranger]

Is there any avenues for the Gaza civilians to turn over the Hamas militants to Israel to end the need to bomb them?

Or is most of the population supportive of the group?

Given the majority voted for them I would say they are supportive.

 

[HairyO]

Brutalized populations are fertile ground for extremists.

Brutalised as much by the rest of the Middle East as Israel. Noone wants an integrated Palestine with any country.

And most Palestinians dont want it either. They want 100% of their demands with no negotiations. Its a straight mix of idiocy and lunacy because it will simply never happen.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Given the majority voted for them I would say they are supportive.

They got 44% of the vote and they were supported by Netanyahu who allowed funds to flow to them from Qatar and Israel.

 

[sdfc]

Brutalised as much by the rest of the Middle East as Israel. Noone wants an integrated Palestine with any country.

Has the rest of the ME pushed them onto reservatons?

And most Palestinians dont want it either. They want 100% of their demands with no negotiations. Its a straight mix of idiocy and lunacy because it will simply never happen.

You've basically just made that up. In any case it doesn't matter what the Palestinians want. It's all about what the Israelis want. They have all the power.

 

[Roby]

Umm I can’t split a lot of those. Some seem worse than others.

Wow, you're going to grade them? You really think you're better than everyone else? What's your IQ 180?