It's all about the future

[richoatthedisco]

But who are our best and most important players?
Richo - 33
Brown - 30
Simmonds - 30
Johnson - 30
Foley - 22
Deledio - 21
That's our top 6 right now.
We will probably lose the top 4 within 3 years. There are no replacements in sight for the top 3. If we perform well, win games and even finals in the next three years we will not have a top 5 or even 10 draft pick again for 5 years. Our champs will retire and we will crash, watching the Gold Goast Sea Cucumbers and West Sydney Bogans pick the eyes out of the draft, leaving us a team of flankers and another decade wasted.

 

[JSFish]

When they retire, Riewoldt will be physically bigger and possibly able to be the focal point of our forward line.
We've got other small, sneaky forward players coming through in Edwards and Morton.
Simmo's a worry but Patto will have improved plenty by the time Simmo retires, and we've got Gus who no one's really sure about atm.
And we have plenty of midfielders, so I wouldn't worry too much about Johnno's spot.

 

[tugga]

You left out Thursfield. He has another decade or so of mauling opposition forwards.

 

[4th Button Boy]

sounds like a bit of a worry but i dont think its to bad... if our list keeps developing the way that it is we should be able to fill the shoes of johno and simmonds although richo and browny, dont really like to think bout the days when theyre not running round in the yellow and black!

 

[richoatthedisco]

When they retire, Riewoldt will be physically bigger and possibly able to be the focal point of our forward line. No, he's a flanker. More than handy but still a Pettifer upgrade.
We've got other small, sneaky forward players coming through in Edwards and Morton. Yes but they're not Nathan Brown.
Simmo's a worry but Patto will have improved plenty by the time Simmo retires, and we've got Gus who no one's really sure about atm. No one's sure of Patto as a no.1 ruck either.
And we have plenty of midfielders, so I wouldn't worry too much about Johnno's spot. No, i'm sure we'll have another big bodied, experienced, honest, hard working leader ready to go by then.

Who will our top 6 be once the top 4 go?
Deledio
Foley
Coughlan(?) (We hope!)
Cotchin(?) (At 20-21? We hope!!)
All mids so far...
Ummm...
Tambling? Connors? Collins???
Big blokes, big blokes...
Ah, ....
Hmmm...
Schulz?
Rance?
Putt?
Gourdis?
We won't get Hurley, or any other top 5 KPP in the next 5 drafts.
As I said, we hope. I stand concerned.

 

[JSFish]

When they retire, Riewoldt will be physically bigger and possibly able to be the focal point of our forward line. No, he's a flanker. More than handy but still a Pettifer upgrade.
We've got other small, sneaky forward players coming through in Edwards and Morton. Yes but they're not Nathan Brown.
Simmo's a worry but Patto will have improved plenty by the time Simmo retires, and we've got Gus who no one's really sure about atm. No one's sure of Patto as a no.1 ruck either.
And we have plenty of midfielders, so I wouldn't worry too much about Johnno's spot. No, i'm sure we'll have another big bodied, experienced, honest, hard working leader ready to go by then.

Riewoldt's only 3 cm shorter than Richo, athletic player, can roam up the field as well. Not saying he's the next Richo, but has the potential to play a similarish role.
Browny is the same scenario as Richo really, we've got the players to cover him, but they aren't going to be the same. We can't expect them to be, but they will still be very good players.
We've got ruckman coming through, just gonna have to wait and see on how they turn out.
Our midfield will be fine, don't worry about that. In 3 or 4 years, we will have one of the best midfields in the league. Foley hard nut, in and under. Lids outside with his polish and flair. Tambling can do either. Hyde's showing worth as a tagger. Cotchin sounds all class, but it's still early days with him. Tucky goes alright, I'm not a massive fan but he's growing on me the last couple of weeks.

Who will our top 6 be once the top 4 go?
Deledio
Foley
Coughlan(?) (We hope!)
Cotchin(?) (At 20-21? We hope!!)
All mids so far...
Ummm...
Tambling? Connors? Collins???
Big blokes, big blokes...
Ah, ....
Hmmm...
Schulz?
Rance?
Putt?
Gourdis?
We won't get Hurley, or any other top 5 KPP in the next 5 drafts.
As I said, we hope. I stand concerned.

Of course we hope, what else are we going to do? When players are young, you hope they turn into good players who can replace your older ones.

 

[tigertiger]

But who are our best and most important players?
Richo - 33
Brown - 30
Simmonds - 30
Johnson - 30
Foley - 22
Deledio - 21
That's our top 6 right now.
We will probably lose the top 4 within 3 years. There are no replacements in sight for the top 3. If we perform well, win games and even finals in the next three years we will not have a top 5 or even 10 draft pick again for 5 years. Our champs will retire and we will crash, watching the Gold Goast Sea Cucumbers and West Sydney Bogans pick the eyes out of the draft, leaving us a team of flankers and another decade wasted.

What do you think we have been doing for the last 4 drafts the club knew this thats why they turned the list over.

TW said in his now infamous speech exactly the same thing and he was drafting to address this but it would take time before we were at our best.

Our best team in the next 5 years isnt going to be one that contains all the older players you listed but the one that is being created below them.

When all the players currently 21 or 22 start to reach 25 we will be a very very strong team we will have a group of high draft picks that have been growing and training together and played over 100 games together. We have drafted a good mix of talent and size, this is only the start not the end team.

 

[richoatthedisco]

What do you think we have been doing for the last 4 drafts (We haven't been drafting gun key forwards, that's for sure. The hole left on the field by Richo will be matched in size only by that in our hearts.) the club knew this thats why they turned the list over.

TW said in his now infamous speech exactly the same thing and he was drafting to address this but it would take time before we were at our best.

Our best team in the next 5 years isnt going to be one that contains all the older players you listed but the one that is being created below them.

When all the players currently 21 or 22 start to reach 25 we will be a very very strong team (of flankers) we will have a group of high draft picks that have been growing and training together and played over 100 games together. We have drafted a good mix of talent and size, this is only the start not the end team.

We will be left spineless, because we have been spineless.

 

[Rayzorwire]

But who are our best and most important players?
Richo - 33
Brown - 30
Simmonds - 30
Johnson - 30
Foley - 22
Deledio - 21
That's our top 6 right now.
We will probably lose the top 4 within 3 years. There are no replacements in sight for the top 3. If we perform well, win games and even finals in the next three years we will not have a top 5 or even 10 draft pick again for 5 years. Our champs will retire and we will crash, watching the Gold Goast Sea Cucumbers and West Sydney Bogans pick the eyes out of the draft, leaving us a team of flankers and another decade wasted.

Richo is irreplaceable, but we haven't had a decent CHF since Ottens' one year in 2001, so two decent forwards (one at CHF, one at FF) can give us what Richo has between them, arguably more. I've got a fair bit of faith that we have the players already on the list to do that. Geelong don't have a genuine champion forward, they have a good mix of good forwards who work hard for each other as a unit, and a bloody exceptional midfield feeding them and making them look like champions.

Brown is a freak, but he is also flawed as the game is currently played (and will be increasingly in the future). Someone not quite as freakish who chases better and is more consistent can replace him. Cotchin may be that player, and for all we know he may be better than Brown. If Meyer gets his body right he is another who has that touch of class. Quality forward pockets/HFF's are one type that it is fairly easy to pick up in the draft and play early.

Simmonds isn't generally a great ruckman and not that influential around the ground despite usually getting a fair bit of it. Last night's game was an exception in his career; a magnificent effort both in the ruck and away from it - but it's not like he was dominating much in terms of opposition either. Over the span of his games with us, he averages out to being fairly average, far from irreplaceable.

We already have mids who will be better than Johnson at his best. Some of them aren't quite there yet, but they will be by the time he retires if they haven't already clearly overtaken him.

To the above I would add that we'll have more quality and depth all over the ground which will more than offset the loss of our older players, and also that the retirement of these seniors will free us up a lot of cash to pursue a high quality trade or two if we think we need it.

 

[Bojangles17]

But who are our best and most important players?
Richo - 33
Brown - 30
Simmonds - 30
Johnson - 30
Foley - 22
Deledio - 21
That's our top 6 right now.
We will probably lose the top 4 within 3 years. There are no replacements in sight for the top 3. .

we've got a decent succession plan in store, notwithstanding further draft selections, heregoesit

richo- Hughes/Putt/Gourdis
Brown- Morton/Connors/collins
Simmonds - Putt
Johnson- Cotchin

 

[polakthetiger]

Forget it guys...you are not going to convince Richoatthedisco...he seems blinded by the fact the sky really is falling!

What are we going to do when Foley, Lids and and Cotchin retire....hang on, can you retire before you start?

 

[tigers_of_old_08]

But who are our best and most important players?
Richo - 33
Brown - 30
Simmonds - 30
Johnson - 30
Foley - 22
Deledio - 21
That's our top 6 right now.
We will probably lose the top 4 within 3 years. There are no replacements in sight for the top 3. If we perform well, win games and even finals in the next three years we will not have a top 5 or even 10 draft pick again for 5 years. Our champs will retire and we will crash, watching the Gold Goast Sea Cucumbers and West Sydney Bogans pick the eyes out of the draft, leaving us a team of flankers and another decade wasted.

good grief someone forgot to take their happy pill today

 

[lids2004roar]

Richo is the main man to worry about, and even then he's playing on the wing these days so it won't be a huge shock up forward when it does happen. But that won't be for another 5 years now, will it I mean 7 years, if he retires before he's 40 then he's soft

Brown is a matchwinner, but he is also a small forward. Impossible to replace him, but surely we've got a matchwinner or two on our list who can be their own star.

It only takes 1 star to surface for our worries in this thread to disappear

Simmonds may be the hardest to replace as ruckmen are hard to judge at an early age. Gus began his career looking like a failure, but so did Cox and he's now the best in the comp. And on the other hand it is always possible to trade in for a middle-aged ruckman, how do you think we got Simmo as well as our last good ruck (Stafford)?

Johnson is a fantastic leader and we have gone to great lengths to find players with leadership potential over the past 4 years. This will pay off. As a midfielder we won't miss him, it's his experience and leadership we need to replace, and I feel we have.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Forget it guys...you are not going to convince Richoatthedisco...he seems blinded by the fact the sky really is falling!

What are we going to do when Foley, Lids and and Cotchin retire....hang on, can you retire before you start?

No, but you can count your chickens before they debut.
Foley, Lids, Cotchin and the rest may be able to step up and cover for Brown and Johnson, but not for at least five years. The hope is Coughlan can come back and bridge the generations.

Richo is irreplaceable (this is my point!!), but we haven't had a decent CHF since Ottens' one year in 2001, so two decent forwards (one at CHF, one at FF) can give us what Richo has between them, arguably more. I've got a fair bit of faith that we have the players already on the list to do that. (NAME THEM?!) Geelong don't have a genuine champion forward, they have a good mix of good forwards who work hard for each other as a unit, and a bloody exceptional midfield feeding them and making them look like champions. (Who's our Mooney? Our Hawkins? Our Johnson? Our Chapman?)

Brown is a freak, but he is also flawed as the game is currently played (and will be increasingly in the future). Someone not quite as freakish who chases better and is more consistent can replace him. Cotchin may be that player, and for all we know he may be better than Brown. If Meyer gets his body right he is another who has that touch of class. Quality forward pockets/HFF's are one type that it is fairly easy to pick up in the draft and play early.

Simmonds isn't generally a great ruckman and not that influential around the ground despite usually getting a fair bit of it. (Yes he is!!) Last night's game was an exception in his career (no it wasn't!); a magnificent effort both in the ruck and away from it - but it's not like he was dominating much in terms of opposition either. Over the span of his games with us, he averages out to being fairly average (except for when he's almost AA), far from irreplaceable.

We already have mids who will be better than Johnson at his best (better than a guy who played key roles in 2 flags before he was the age they are now? Hopefully). Some of them aren't quite there yet, but they will be by the time he retires if they haven't already clearly overtaken him.

To the above I would add that we'll have more quality and depth all over the ground which will more than offset the loss of our older players (what combination of Connors, Cotchin, Putt et al will 'more than offset' the loss of the Dynamic Duo?), and also that the retirement of these seniors will free us up a lot of cash to pursue a high quality trade or two if we think we need it (We'll need it, but will lack the high draft picks to get it done.).

2008:
B - King Thursfield McGuane
HB - McMahon Schulz Moore
C - Tambling Johnson Newman
HF - Richo Riewoldt Deledio
F - Morton Polak Brown
R - Simmonds Tuck Foley
I - Patto Edwards Hyde White
E - Cotchin Bowden Jackson

2011(?):
B - Thursfield Rance Connors
HB - Moore Schulz Newman
C - Tambling Coughlan Edwards
HF - Cotchin ?THESUPERSTARWHO'SGUNNAWINUSAFLAG? Riewoldt
F - Morton THEOTHERGUNWHOSHALLREMAINNAMELESS Polak/Putt/Gourdis/EasyToPickUpClassFP
R - Mature Age Recruit/Patto Deledio Foley
I - Patto/Putt/Gus/Cartledge Polo/JON/Cass/White/Mcmahon

 

[Tiger08]

Don't underestimate how good young Jack could be richoatthedisco. He's tall enough to be a KPP (only 1cm shorter than cousin Nick) and has the right attitude. He's just got that arrogance about him that you need in your CHF. He's a bloody good contested mark because he uses his body well and he's still only a skinny kid. Imagine him running around with Fev's shoulders - would be unstoppable. I remember seeing Fev at 17/18 and thing about him was that he just knew how to position his body at the contest, Jack is the same. Then we'll just need one of Schulz/Hughes or Gourdis to be a decent second option, and the forward line will be okay.

Key backs are covered with Thursty/Moore(can't believe I'm saying that but he's coming on) and hopefully Rance down the track. Ruck's a minor concern but I would imagine our first rounder this year would be a ruckman (seems the obvious hole) and then we'd have Gus, Patto and another kid.

The list is coming together just fine. We've drafted the right sort of players, we just have to develop them properly.

Do Carlton's 2011 team and see how they shape up... there'll be 'KPPWESHOULHAVEDRAFTEDWITHONEOFOURFIVENUMBERONEPICKS' and 'WHEREJOSHKENNEDYWOULDHAVEBEENPLAYING' everywhere.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

On paper our main concern for the future is in the Ruck.However it all depends how much faith Terry has in Graham and Putt.
Our fwd line is a minor concern as shown by the Crows and West Coast[in the recent past]if you have a great Midfield,You can make the average fwd look good.
What we need to do this year is get as many draft picks through trades as possible.

 

[JSFish]

No, but you can count your chickens before they debut.
Foley, Lids, Cotchin and the rest may be able to step up and cover for Brown and Johnson, but not for at least five years. The hope is Coughlan can come back and bridge the generations.



2008:
B - King Thursfield McGuane
HB - McMahon Schulz Moore
C - Tambling Johnson Newman
HF - Richo Riewoldt Deledio
F - Morton Polak Brown
R - Simmonds Tuck Foley
I - Patto Edwards Hyde White
E - Cotchin Bowden Jackson

2011(?):
B - Thursfield Rance Connors
HB - Moore Schulz Newman
C - Tambling Coughlan Edwards
HF - Cotchin ?THESUPERSTARWHO'SGUNNAWINUSAFLAG? Riewoldt
F - Morton THEOTHERGUNWHOSHALLREMAINNAMELESS Polak/Putt/Gourdis/EasyToPickUpClassFP
R - Mature Age Recruit/Patto Deledio Foley
I - Patto/Putt/Gus/Cartledge Polo/JON/Cass/White/Mcmahon

There wouldn't be a team in the league who knows exactly what their 2011 team will look like mate. All depends on the next 3 years..

 

[1980]

On paper our main concern for the future is in the Ruck.However it all depends how much faith Terry has in Graham and Putt.
Our fwd line is a minor concern as shown by the Crows and West Coast[in the recent past]if you have a great Midfield,You can make the average fwd look good.
What we need to do this year is get as many draft picks through trades as possible.

Correct

 

[Tivers]

Thought Jack Riewoldt looked very promising on Saturday.
Wasn't until he was standing next to Nick after the match that I realised how tall he is. I always assumed he was a fair bit shorter than his cousin.
Certainly has the confidence to give it a crack, and hopefully succeed at the highest level.

 

[Tigerbob]

Our biggest concern is replacing Troy Simmonds and Matthew Richardson.

We need a developing ruckman so that in two-three years time he will be able to impact games similarly what Troy is doing now.

We drafted Putt, but I see him more a forward. He has incredible mobility and may be the answer to having a solid forward structure when Richo does go.

A Riewoldt, Putt, Hughes tall forward line may be good enough in years to come.

I definetely know a Thursfield, Moore, Rance backline will be a beauty!

The midfield of Deledio, Foley, Tambling, Cotchin etc is looking very promising.

As I said, the ruck is the area of concern when Simmonds goes, and Richo is impossible to replace. Thats our only concerns. Things are positive.

 

[tugga]

On paper our main concern for the future is in the Ruck.However it all depends how much faith Terry has in Graham and Putt.
Our fwd line is a minor concern as shown by the Crows and West Coast[in the recent past]if you have a great Midfield,You can make the average fwd look good.
What we need to do this year is get as many draft picks through trades as possible.

Quentin Lynch being a prime example. Anyone can lead out, take a chest mark and go back and kick a goal. Midfield and defence (and ruck) is where the game is won nowadays. these days you can get by with a small forward line anyway. Look at the Dogs.

 

[Tivers]

Anyone........? Except the Big Q ! Old rubber chest himself !!!

 

[_RT_]

But who are our best and most important players?
Richo - 33
Brown - 30
Simmonds - 30
Johnson - 30
Foley - 22
Deledio - 21
That's our top 6 right now.
We will probably lose the top 4 within 3 years. There are no replacements in sight for the top 3. If we perform well, win games and even finals in the next three years we will not have a top 5 or even 10 draft pick again for 5 years. Our champs will retire and we will crash, watching the Gold Goast Sea Cucumbers and West Sydney Bogans pick the eyes out of the draft, leaving us a team of flankers and another decade wasted.

Why stop at the top 6 players? Why not go on and mention the next 6 players? Probably has something to do with the fact that it hurts your point of view.

After the 6 you've named I believe that the next 6 could all be youngsters like King, Tuck, Tambling, Thursfield, Moore, McGuane, Schulz, White, Pattison, Morton & Riewoldt to name a few who have stepped up over the last month and are the real reason we have had improved performances in that time. So when those top 4 move on in the years to come there will younger players taking their spots as our best players. Not forgetting that there are currently 20 players on our list who have played less than 35 games and I don't really see where all this doom and gloom is coming from.

However I'll try to address a few of your concerns on a player by player basis.
First off Richo yes the big lug has been outstanding in the past month, racking up possessions at will and kicking goals but here is a figure that may shock you. Richo has kicked 12 goals in the past 4 games, Richmond as a team has kicked 71. That means 59 goals have been scored by the rest of the team at an average of 15 goals per game. Hardly cause for alarm.

Now onto Brown and while there is probably no replacement for Brown running around in the side at the moment, all the reports suggest that Cotchin will be just as good as Brown in the years to come. If you think thats a heap of B/S then try looking at what the kid did in his first senior VFL game 23 odd touches and this is despite not having any sort of pre season training under his belt.

With Simmonds, Pattison is looking every bit the replacement we want for Simmonds and may even end up being a better ruckman. Despite spending lees time on ground that Simmonds does, Pattison is only averaging 4 disposals a game less than Simmo. Given that most quality ruckmen don't hit their peak until their mid-late 20's I think 22 year old Pattison has plenty of time to turn into a number 1 ruckman.

As for Johnson there are a number of players that could step up and fill the void but given that he has only just turned 30 I reckon he'll be around for quite a few years yet. So no real need to panic just yet.

 

[dean33]

But who are our best and most important players?
Richo - 33
Brown - 30
Simmonds - 30
Johnson - 30
Foley - 22
Deledio - 21
That's our top 6 right now.
We will probably lose the top 4 within 3 years. There are no replacements in sight for the top 3. If we perform well, win games and even finals in the next three years we will not have a top 5 or even 10 draft pick again for 5 years. Our champs will retire and we will crash, watching the Gold Goast Sea Cucumbers and West Sydney Bogans pick the eyes out of the draft, leaving us a team of flankers and another decade wasted.

i'm tipping you're more of a glass half empty type person yeah??

 

[richoatthedisco]

Why stop at the top 6 players? Why not go on and mention the next 6 players? Probably has something to do with the fact that it hurts your point of view. (Actually, I think it supports my point)

After the 6 you've named I believe that the next 6 could all be youngsters like King (24 - hardly a youngster, and a bloke you'd prefer in your bottom 6), Tuck (26, ditto), Tambling, Thursfield, Moore (24), McGuane (notice I didn't have him in my 2011 team? If we do, we're in trouble. VERY limited player), Schulz, White, Pattison (bit player ATM), Morton & Riewoldt to name a few who have stepped up over the last month and are the real reason we have had improved performances in that time. So when those top 4 move on in the years to come there will younger players taking their spots as our best players. Not forgetting that there are currently 20 players on our list who have played less than 35 games (you mean 20 blokes - half our list - have yet to prove they can handle AFL and you don't see a problem?) and I don't really see where all this doom and gloom is coming from.

However I'll try to address a few of your concerns on a player by player basis.
First off Richo yes the big lug has been outstanding in the past month, racking up possessions at will and kicking goals but here is a figure that may shock you. Richo has kicked 12 goals in the past 4 games (he's actually kicked 16 - 4, 3, 4, 5), Richmond as a team has kicked 71. That means 59 goals have been scored by the rest of the team at an average of 15 goals per game. Hardly cause for alarm. (Ok, I'll remember that when there's no Richo to take contested marks inside 50 and you're bemoaning the lack of a stand-up target.)

Now onto Brown and while there is probably no replacement for Brown running around in the side at the moment, all the reports suggest that Cotchin will be just as good as Brown in the years to come. If you think thats a heap of B/S then try looking at what the kid did in his first senior VFL game 23 odd touches and this is despite not having any sort of pre season training under his belt. (I was there, and although it was impressive he has a long way to go before he is mentioned with Brown.)

With Simmonds, Pattison is looking every bit the replacement we want for Simmonds and may even end up being a better ruckman (I don't see it, as much as I love Patto's heart and smarts, just don't see him as a no.1 ruckman). Despite spending lees time on ground that Simmonds does, Pattison is only averaging 4 disposals a game less than Simmo. Given that most quality ruckmen don't hit their peak until their mid-late 20's I think 22 year old Pattison has plenty of time to turn into a number 1 ruckman.

As for Johnson there are a number of players that could step up and fill the void but given that he has only just turned 30 I reckon he'll be around for quite a few years yet. So no real need to panic just yet.

And for those pointing out how tall Jack Riewoldt is and that he is therefore a guaranteed KPP, I will remind you Glen Archer was 182cm and Wayne Campbell 190 - just 2cm shorter than Jack. Now I've only been watching football for 30 years, only played 15 at CHF/FF/CHB, and I like the boy, but nothing about the way Jack plays screams anything other than 'FLANKER!'
I re-read Weaver's mock 07 draft last night where he had Gourdis at no.5, rating him the best KPP in it. I hope the old dog was right. I like the look of Putt too, but he could be all or nothing or just handy.
The point of my OP was to remind those talking up our bright future that our current results are largely thanks to the efforts of our senior men. Yes, the young blokes have contributed, but it's been at the periphery. Some joker wanted to give JR votes the other night - he had 12 touches! 12!! Tambling gets 18-19 and we bar up, overlooking or even bagging Johnson's 30. We call King a youngster when in fact he's a 24-year-old who probably every other club would ignore if delisted. Moore is 24 and a pinch-hitter as a KPP. Definitely suited to 3rd or 4th tall but 9 times out of 10 Buddy's kicking at least 5 from the chances he had against Moore (who still did a sterling job, kudos).
My point was that in 3 years time we are likely to find ourselves without nearly 900 games experience and a senior ruckman (Patto will only be 25), superstar forward, superstar goalsneak, and 30-year-old midfield body, and questioned where the replacements would come from. So far I hear that Patto and Putt will cover Simmonds, Riewoldt will replace Richo, Cotchin Brown and any number of blokes Johnson. We'll see. I was just warning of the distinct possibility that we'll be hit by several key retirements at once, right in the middle of the Great AFL Expansion Draft Pick Giveaway Bonanza*, and will have to rebuild with a series of pick 12-20s.

*Offer limited to new 'franchises' in cities where no one gives a stuff about footy, but hey, we're going to make it as easy as possible for you to jump on the bandwagon. The rich Australian footballing heritage of Parramatta and Surfers Paradise deserve to be gifted premierships inside a decade, while those living in the past back in Melbourne (what a ridiculous place to play football - it's too cold!) can wait another 30 years or switch to a team with a chance.
It's about the future dammit!