John Elliott on SEN

[The Old Dark Navy's]

He - Collins, caused more damage to the CFC brand,
than any other.

He can count his Carlton mates on his dick.

I would have thought our 'brand' was our public image, not our bottom line. Collo has little to do with our negative public image, despite being involved in the early days of salary cap shenanigans.

As for our bottom line, well if he was involved every step of the Dome deal, the debt is accumulating. What was the debt when Elliot left? $12m or something like that.

I've never had any personal involvement with any of our presidents and don't have allegiances. Clearly we have some deep seated opinions from some though.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

I'm thinking the deals are not straight forward in structure. They are like tax thresholds with the cost changing based on numbers. Too high and the cost to run the ground goes up, too low and you don't get the dollars through the ground.

The figures quoted in the media change daily or at least per game. The Roos lost 150k on a recent game. Not sure we have ever done that.

It is easy to forget that the rest of our board was heavily involved in making this deal. If Collo did sit it out, he was not in a position to tell Carlton not to take the deal and was not in a position to frame the terms on behalf of the Dome.

I am sure there was a scenario where we could have made decent money but maybe the stipulations are counting against us.

I still have to ask people who lament Collo coming in as president, just where they envisaged the club heading under Elliot?

* Would you have been happy for us to continue to cheat the cap year after year?
* Would you have been happy for the club to go to court and tear down the draft and salary cap?
* Were you just hoping that with our debt accumulating, that Pratt would continue to write cheques?
* Do you think we would have Judd now?

Before potting Collins for taking on Elliot (and winning handsomely by member's vote it might pay to remember), you have to look at the big picture and also address what the alternatives were.

I'm happy to say that Collo can go **** himself if he actually set those terms and forced us to take that deal while pretending he wasn't involved. I will not be blaming our woes on Collo and Smorgon so that Elliot's massive part in our troubles is swept under the carpet however.

You are nearly there ODN,
Collins was the one that brought us down,
in his guise of AFL something or other,

and at the same time he gazumped Elliott,
while Collo had the numbers to take over,
he didn't have the cash backed mates.

Don't forget Collo signed the cheques in those days,
and a bloke called James Sutherland (CEO of Oz Cricket), co-signed them.

But only one bloke took the fall.

One bloke.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Exactly.

Pratt would never have admitted his responsibility in the price fixing scam, and no-on here seems to hold that against him, yet everyone detests Elliot for not admitting his responsibility in the cap cheating scam?

I guess money talks and bullshit walks

1. The price fixing was not carried out to the detriment of the Carlton Football Club, unless you want to add up the cost of a few hundred boxes used to stock up the social club bar and the like. Sheesh

2. Pratt ultimately did admit responsibility and paid a $36m fine. It was the lying charge he was denying.

3. Not only did Elliot not admit any responsibility, he denied it happened period. That is sheer madness. He even told us he would sign an affadavit that we had not cheated the cap.

It is chalk and cheese what you are comparing here.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

You are nearly there ODN,
Collins was the one that brought us down,
in his guise of AFL something or other,

and at the same time he gazumped Elliott,
while Collo had the numbers to take over,
he didn't have the cash backed mates.

Don't forget Collo signed the cheques in those days,
and a bloke called James Sutherland (CEO of Oz Cricket), co-signed them.

But only one bloke took the fall.

One bloke.

This isn't making sense igt. Collo left the club in 1993. He promptly implemented a moratorium on cap breaches allowing all clubs including Carlton to clean their slate.

Exactly what did he do to hurt us while with the AFL, aside from the Williams suspension?

Who was signing the O'Reilly cheques, who promised money to SOS and Bradley? Why did Elliot attack SOS and Bradley for dobbing us in while still denying that we did anything wrong?

I'd say a few blokes took the fall igt, there wasn't just the one board change.

Yes, Collo did not have the cash backed mates but jesus christ, were we just going to cheat our way through the next few years and basically be owned by these mates? Shame on these mates for sticking with the club while they got to strut around and act all important. When their bragging rights went, so did they. Yeah, really loyal. Held the club and the supporters to ransom for not allowing their mate to continue to run 'his' club, legally or otherwise.

 

[Smell The Glove]

1. The price fixing was not carried out to the detriment of the Carlton Football Club, unless you want to add up the cost of a few hundred boxes used to stock up the social club bar and the like. Sheesh

The world doesnt revolve around the CFC. We are talking about the relative character of two men it similar positions and how they acted in similar circumstances.

2. Pratt ultimately did admit responsibility and paid a $36m fine. It was the lying charge he was denying.

No he didnt. Visy did. Pratt never really admitted personal responsibility. He first let his executives take the fall. Then when he realised he couldnt weasel his way out of it he made an admission to get it all over and done with. Even then, the admission was more of an admission of Visy's guilt, not Pratt's.

3. Not only did Elliot not admit any responsibility, he denied it happened period. That is sheer madness. He even told us he would sign an affadavit that we had not cheated the cap.

It is chalk and cheese what you are comparing here.

Fair point. But I also have no doubt that Elliot is motivated as much by his belief that the Carlton Football Club did nothing wrong, in addtion to his belief that he personally did nothing wrong. If that wasnt the case, he would have let others at the club take the fall long before now.

And whats to say if the AFL had said that Carlton would have gotten off with a lighter penalty if Elliot admitted his involvement he would have done it?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

The world doesnt revolve around the CFC. We are talking about the relative character of two men it similar positions and how they acted in similar circumstances.

Vastly different situations actually.

No he didnt. Visy did. Pratt never really admitted personal responsibility. He first let his executives take the fall. Then when he realised he couldnt weasel his way out of it he made an admission to get it all over and done with. Even then, the admission was more of an admission of Visy's guilt, not Pratt's.

Let's be smart here. Visy were facing a multi-million dollar lawsuit. You don't head those off or leave yourself some wriggle room by incriminating yourself. Elliot has been out of office for years and has nothing to lose by conceding. His reason for not doing so is stubbornness pure and simple.

Fair point. But I also have no doubt that Elliot is motivated as much by his belief that the Carlton Football Club did nothing wrong, in addtion to his belief that he personally did nothing wrong. If that wasnt the case, he would have let others at the club take the fall long before now.

So he believes we were fined for nothing?

And whats to say if the AFL had said that Carlton would have gotten off with a lighter penalty if Elliot admitted his involvement he would have done it?

Well the fact that he reckons we did nothing wrong would kind of remove this hypothetical wouldn't it?

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Work it this way,
there was a specific agenda driven vendetta against Elliott after 20 years of threatened Supreme Court actions.

Once the AFL were cashed up through TV rights,
they went to town.

Jack went, and we suffered the consequences.

... However, some had dragged us down from the inside.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Work it this way,
there was a specific agenda driven vendetta against Elliott after 20 years of threatened Supreme Court actions.

Once the AFL were cashed up through TV rights,
they went to town.

I have no doubt the AFL wanted Elliot gone. This was around at the time too. The thing is though, that the AFL didn't hand him the smoking gun. He fired the shot himself giving them the opportunity to go to town.

 

[Smell The Glove]

Vastly different situations actually.

Let's be smart here. Visy were facing a multi-million dollar lawsuit. You don't head those off or leave yourself some wriggle room by incriminating yourself. Elliot has been out of office for years and has nothing to lose by conceding. His reason for not doing so is stubbornness pure and simple.

Okay, then tell me what benefit his admission would bring? And I'm not talking about some petty satisfaction for disgruntled Carlton supporters. Elliot knows as well as anyone, that an admission of guilt, especially on his behalf, would bring more harm to the Carlton Football Club than anything else. Our reputation would be sullied permanently. Not for the next few years, but forever. Elliot knew that other clubs were just as involved in cap cheating as us, particularly Essendon. To admit it would be to permanently stain Carlton with the sole burden of pre equalising-draft cheating. I actually applaud Elliot for refusing to give the AFL this satisfaction.

So he believes we were fined for nothing?

No. He believes we were fined by a punicious AFL, determined to impose its Soviet ideals on a club that was getting big enough to pose a threat to its monopoly. It wasnt long after Elliot left that the AFL swooped and removed us from PP. That was the ultimate motive. The penalties were designed partly to send a message to the rest of the competition, and partly to send a message specifically to us- dont **** with us. As I have noted above, there is nothing in it for Carlton, a club on the mend, for Elliot to admit anything. Whether he should have done so early on is another story, but to do it now would be incredibly damaging for us.

Well the fact that he reckons we did nothing wrong would kind of remove this hypothetical wouldn't it?

No. The fact that it never happened removes this hypothetical. If the AFL had have offered us a guilty plea, and Elliot hadnt have taken it, I would be deeply ashamed of Elliot.

As it was, he stood up to the AFL and told them where to go. Regardless of his intial actions in allowing us to be put in that position (which were done arrogantly and stupidly but intended for the ultimate benefit of the club), his subsequent actions should be at least not critisised.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Okay, then tell me what benefit his admission would bring? And I'm not talking about some petty satisfaction for disgruntled Carlton supporters. Elliot knows as well as anyone, that an admission of guilt, especially on his behalf, would bring more harm to the Carlton Football Club than anything else. Our reputation would be sullied permanently. Not for the next few years, but forever. Elliot knew that other clubs were just as involved in cap cheating as us, particularly Essendon. To admit it would be to permanently stain Carlton with the sole burden of pre equalising-draft cheating. I actually applaud Elliot for refusing to give the AFL this satisfaction.

Seriously. Admitting to salary cap cheating would sully our reputation? Well why didn't you say so.

I would hate for the media and the AFL community at large to refer to us as cheats. That would be awful.

Let's forget the fact that the AFL found evidence, and that they found us guilty, and that they punished us for it. We aren't truly cheats unless John Elliot admits to it.

Boy, have I been barking up the wrong tree.

Whether he should have done so early on is another story, but to do it now would be incredibly damaging for us.

Doing so now would do diddly squat to us now for crying out loud. The least he could do is stop repeating his innocence every time someone asks him a question, because blatant lies by a former president hardly have us smelling like roses either.

No. The fact that it never happened removes this hypothetical. If the AFL had have offered us a guilty plea, and Elliot hadnt have taken it, I would be deeply ashamed of Elliot.

As it was, he stood up to the AFL and told them where to go. Regardless of his intial actions in allowing us to be put in that position (which were done arrogantly and stupidly but intended for the ultimate benefit of the club), his subsequent actions should be at least not critisised.

Of course they should be criticised. You do realise it was the depth of our deception and the complete lack of cooperation that made our penalty that much more severe don't you?

 

[Smell The Glove]

Seriously. Admitting to salary cap cheating would sully our reputation? Well why didn't you say so.

I would hate for the media and the AFL community at large to refer to us as cheats. That would be awful.

Let's forget the fact that the AFL found evidence, and that they found us guilty, and that they punished us for it. We aren't truly cheats unless John Elliot admits to it.

Boy, have I been barking up the wrong tree.

Right so you admit that Elliot admitting anything would do nothing. We have been sullied as much as we should have been. We move on.

Doing so now would do diddly squat to us now for crying out loud. The least he could do is stop repeating his innocence every time someone asks him a question, because blatant lies by a former president hardly have us smelling like roses either.

I dont hear him repeating his innocence as such. As Ive said, I believe Elliot knows he did wrong. But I hear him saying instead that the AFL made an example of Carlton and that Carlton did nothing extraordinarily wrong compared to the rest of the league, which I find a perfectly reasonable, if not entirely defensible reaction to the question consistently thown at him.

And I dont hear you explaining what practical benefit his apology would have either.

I agree however, that Elliot being interviewed is not good for the club, but can he help the questions that are being asked of him?

Of course they should be criticised. You do realise it was the depth of our deception and the complete lack of cooperation that made our penalty that much more severe don't you?

No. I believe the AFL were going to punish us a much as they could regardless. Any contrition or assistance on our behalf would simply have been used by the AFL for propaganda purposes anyway. The AFL wanted to render Elliot and the CFC as meaningless and helpless as they possibly could. Any suggestion that an apology could somehow have let the CFC off would have been humiliating for the AFL and would have disrupted their ultimate plan to justify the draft by another 10 years or so.

Fremantle and Richmond still struggle- you dont think they are a massive embarassment to the AFL?

 

[JeffDunne]

Wait a sec, you are amazed? It beggars belief? Head in the sand? Let's not forget what board you are on before you try and belittle my thoughts here.

So far you have the Williams suspension which had nothing to do with Collo as a president, the move to the Dome which I acknowledged he may have been in the thick of despite all denials by parties at the time, and now you are adding signing Pagan.

Firstly, I am only belittling the denial (if you want to call it that) because the weight of evidence would suggest what you acknowledge in the very next paragraph. Even Collo's biggest supporters would have to acknowledge the man has a history of bare faced lies when it comes to the management of the Dome. I don't see why at the very least everyone wouldn't have a huge question mark over his comments in relation to Carlton.

The Williams case was very much part of Collo getting retribution in his war against Jack. Collo tried to get rid of Jack prior to joining the AFL and his failure to do so was very much the reason he left. Jack needed a smart liar like Collo in his battle with the AFL - I guess Collo got sick of signing false stat-dec's.

It's hardly comparable to the way the club was driven into the ground by Jack just prior, the refusal to rebuild, the boorish drunken behaviour, abusing players in the room, losing sponsorships because he wanted to smoke at the footy, the salary cap breaches, the spiralling debt, and then the outright lies to deny every single bit of it.

Who is defending Jack? Certainly not me.

However I really don't see much difference between the two in terms of what they did for Carlton. Jack is boorish, Collo more polished. Other than that all I see is a history of self-interest and two people that dined out on the work of others from a previous era. They didn't make Carlton a great club, it already was. The two however were equally responsible for it's demise.

Collo wasn't much of a president, I grant you and while I applaud that he took out someone who would have been the death of the club, I was fully aware he wasn't there for the long haul and didn't care that he left.

Collo didn't take out Jack.

Jack took out Jack.

Collo saw an opportunity and he took it. Had he not done so, the ASIC would have prevented Elliott running a chook raffle let alone a football club. Collo was opportunistic for his own gain, he saved nothing.

Still shaking my head here ... he re-signed Pagan? Bloody hell. We re-signed Ratts early as well and still don't know how that will turn out. It's a fairly thin premise.

The re-singing of Pagan for 3 years was a disaster. Typical reactionary management. They should have waited until at least later in the season before making the decision and not reacting to a pre-season win. It wasn't as though Pagan was being sought out by other clubs.

Same thing happened with Whitnall. Fev too.

What needs to be remembered too in the context of what happened at Richmond this week, the very same was happening at Carlton under Collo (i.e. players meeting and trying to get the coach sacked).

Collo IMO was the worst Carlton president I have seen. Worse than Jack, worse than Smorgon. I'm not a huge fan of Sticks but at least you know where you stand with him.

 

[Carlton_Blues]

Elliot bleeds navy Blue and it's just his ways that have got him into strife.

The intention was always to get the best deal for Carlton from a proud and pasionate man.

Even Pratt went on record before he passed away that he wanted to see Elliot's name back at Visy Park, surely thats gotta count for something coming from the great man?