John Elliott on SEN

[Stig O'Hara]

I didn't quite catch your thoughts on Elliott's legacy to the club. Yes Pratt was the money man, but Elliott was the 'king of spin', hence why he was able to borrow so much money throughout the '80s & then again in the '90s, despite never having anything to show for his efforts. If Elliott could pull the wool over the eyes of the big banks, I could easily see him telling Pratt that everything was alright & he knew what he was doing. Not because Pratt was naive, but because Elliott was a mate & Pratt trusted him (a bit like the way he trusted that his Visy executives were acting in the best interests in getting into 'bed' with AMCOR).

it 'aint hard to work out.

 

[HBF]

Stayed in the job for 5 years too long, and when he was trying to hang onto his job, he became desperate, wanted success, and hence the payments to some our players that were outside the cap.

I loved what he did for our club through the '80's and most of the '90's, however, I just cannot forgive him for what he oversaw as our worst period in our history - even though he still cannot bring himself to admit he new about these dealings.

 

[celtic_pride]

Stayed in the job for 5 years too long, and when he was trying to hang onto his job, he became desperate, wanted success, and hence the payments to some our players that were outside the cap.

I loved what he did for our club through the '80's and most of the '90's, however, I just cannot forgive him for what he oversaw as our worst period in our history - even though he still cannot bring himself to admit he new about these dealings.

Actually TBH he was kicked out of office before the 'worst era' in our history IMHO, the disaster that was the Pagan/Collins/Graham Smorgon/Malouf era ...

I sometimes think Jack won't apologise because of the way he was booted out as president, and the petty and vindictive actions of Collins board to re-name the Elliott stand at Optus Oval (which I've always felt was a stupid and petty move)

People seem to forget that Collins also did a lot of damage when he was president at the Club, even though he was there for a lot less time then Jack, even now he is still screwing us, esp as being CEO of Ethiad Stadium ..

 

[HeziBarecket]

..this 'forgive and forget' stuff is total nonsese, especially in regards to Jock Elliot. Sure we won flags with him at our helm, but it was via dodgy business, esp. the latter years once the draft came in. I mean you might as well forgive and forget Hitler, he did some good things for Germany, or those priests in Ireland that fondled little boys, those guys did lots of good things besides their 'mistakes'. People with power have to take responsibility for their 'mistakes', especially if affects people who were innocent - in this case the CARLTON SUPPORTERS!!!!

Jock Elliot dragged us to the WORST state the club had ever been and GAVE us 3 wooden spoons! He damaged this club like nothing else and he never said 'sorry', I really was responsible for this mess, I've really let the thousands of supporters who give this club it's soul down in the worst possible way. Footy fans love watching Carlton do well, Carlton revolutionised they way footy was played in the modern era, and Jock reduced this team to a weak rabble, a laughing stock worse than St Kilda were in the 80s! In fact we got made to lick St.Kildas dirty boots this decade in some of the most humiliating footy EVER.

Until he does that, and admits he did wrong, he is just an arrogant jerk.

Sure people make mistakes, Jock Elliot would be the last to admit he ever did. Loser.

 

[bLuEbOy1984]

Actually TBH he was kicked out of office before the 'worst era' in our history IMHO, the disaster that was the Pagan/Collins/Graham Smorgon/Malouf era ...

I sometimes think Jack won't apologise because of the way he was booted out as president, and the petty and vindictive actions of Collins board to re-name the Elliott stand at Optus Oval (which I've always felt was a stupid and petty move)

People seem to forget that Collins also did a lot of damage when he was president at the Club, even though he was there for a lot less time then Jack, even now he is still screwing us, esp as being CEO of Ethiad Stadium ..

What Jack did was he put us in such a bad shape, that the following boards came into fix his mess up, but his mess was too deep... Carlton stands for Finals football, but we played fort eh last postions on the table… NOBODY could match the calibre and greatness of this great club, but he put us on our knees, we became the laughing stock of the town... everybody kicked us while we where down... it was hard to watch, hard to digest the crap we have been through... reading heath Scotland say that they where told to buy their own footballs for training.. like mediumsizered has said no club no matter what should go though that…

 

[1981]

If you're at the top of the tree you have to blame it on others.

Everyone knows he was implicated, so what's the big deal?

Everyone knows Coca Cola isn't terribly good for your teeth, but the heads of the company won't say that.

Big deal.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Actually TBH he was kicked out of office before the 'worst era' in our history IMHO, the disaster that was the Pagan/Collins/Graham Smorgon/Malouf era ...

Actually ... he was kicked out of office at the end of 2002, our first wooden spoon season. We were being investigated for salary cap breaches at the time causing Carlton One lead by Collins with SOS as the poster boy because of these breaches and the spoon season. We were penalised less than 10 days later. No doubt that the Elliot regime caused and introduced the worst era in our history.

When Collins came into office, our 2003 player payments were already $1m plus over the cap, we were already in massive debt and our revenue was way down and we were losing money. Make no mistake about it.

The only possible mistake surrounding Collins was the Telstra Dome move as he had a conflict of interest. Now he allegedly was not involved in any of these decisions for either party and the Carlton board certainly backed that claim up at the time. He could not tell Carlton not to take the deal because they would lose money as he had an ethical obligation to the Dome. The AFL sealed the deal by paying out some of our Princes Park contracts as a sweetener to move sooner.

The rest of the presidency days before Pratt arrived were basically tightening the belt further and trying to survive while going cap in hand to previous donors and being turned down.

The first thing Pratt did when he came is paid for a few basic necessities, had a fundraiser and provided paid staff to set about finding revenue streams so that we could spend money to make money again.

I sometimes think Jack won't apologise because of the way he was booted out as president, and the petty and vindictive actions of Collins board to re-name the Elliott stand at Optus Oval (which I've always felt was a stupid and petty move)

Apologise? How can he apologise when he claims he did nothing wrong, despite all evidence to the contrary?

The renaming of the stand may have been vindictive but emotion was pretty high. We were last, we were broke, our list was bare and we had what was considered an ego-stroking stand to pay off. I always had a problem with presidents having stands named after themselves while in office. There are far better people to name a stand after IMO.

People seem to forget that Collins also did a lot of damage when he was president at the Club, even though he was there for a lot less time then Jack, even now he is still screwing us, esp as being CEO of Ethiad Stadium ..

Aside from the move to the Dome itself, what damage did he do?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

If you're at the top of the tree you have to blame it on others.

You do? You have to? Really?

That's what I want in a leader. Destroy and then deny. Champion.

 

[JeffDunne]

It amazes me ODN that you're prepared to rightly give Jack a whack but you let Collo off with a benefit of the doubt.

The Dome deal wasn't the only mistake Collo made at Carlton. Many would suggest too he only took on the presidency to facilitate this move (with the AFL's endorsement & $3m cheque IIRC).

Collo was as responsible for the cap cheating as anyone else. He had a problem with the club, jumped to the AFL, and sought retribution there. Greg Williams' 9 weeks would be another black mark against the bloke.

Collo, as much as Jack, used Carlton for his own interests.

 

[celtic_pride]

..this 'forgive and forget' stuff is total nonsese, especially in regards to Jock Elliot. Sure we won flags with him at our helm, but it was via dodgy business, esp. the latter years once the draft came in. I mean you might as well forgive and forget Hitler, he did some good things for Germany, or those priests in Ireland that fondled little boys, those guys did lots of good things besides their 'mistakes'. People with power have to take responsibility for their 'mistakes', especially if affects people who were innocent - in this case the CARLTON SUPPORTERS!!!!

Jock Elliot dragged us to the WORST state the club had ever been and GAVE us 3 wooden spoons! He damaged this club like nothing else and he never said 'sorry', I really was responsible for this mess, I've really let the thousands of supporters who give this club it's soul down in the worst possible way. Footy fans love watching Carlton do well, Carlton revolutionised they way footy was played in the modern era, and Jock reduced this team to a weak rabble, a laughing stock worse than St Kilda were in the 80s! In fact we got made to lick St.Kildas dirty boots this decade in some of the most humiliating footy EVER.

Until he does that, and admits he did wrong, he is just an arrogant jerk.

Sure people make mistakes, Jock Elliot would be the last to admit he ever did. Loser.

Whatever your views on John Elliott, it's very inappropiate and offensive to compare him to Adolf Hitler/Nazi Germany, and child molestesting priests FFS.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

It amazes me ODN that you're prepared to rightly give Jack a whack but you let Collo off with a benefit of the doubt.

Well I know the draft penalties happened, I acknowledged the Dome move ... let's see what else you have.

The Dome deal wasn't the only mistake Collo made at Carlton.

Okay, entirely possible he wasn't as far removed as he said he was. Already acknowledged.

Many would suggest too he only took on the presidency to facilitate this move (with the AFL's endorsement & $3m cheque IIRC).

Sorry, was that a mistake or is this speculation?

Collo was as responsible for the cap cheating as anyone else.

Well he was there several years before we got done and I acknowledge that most clubs came clean under the moratorium. Everyone was involved at a time when it was the done thing. He wasn't in charge of it however, and wasn't involved in the cases that had us done big time.

He had a problem with the club, jumped to the AFL, and sought retribution there.

Well there is a mistake .... wait no, that would be speculation as well.

Greg Williams' 9 weeks would be another black mark against the bloke.

He was working for the AFL, we might not agree with the decision but it has nothing to do with his presidency thereafter.

The only problem with Collo and his presidency is the Dome deal and we honestly do not know whether he lead the others or not, we can only suspect on this score as the board said he wasn't involved.

Collo, as much as Jack, used Carlton for his own interests.

Perhaps he did use Carlton but he wasn't responsible for nearly killing us. I am perplexed at why you are amazed that I choose to dabble in knowns rather than a batch of your speculators.

I never had any great love for Collo along the journey but someone had to stop what Jack had done and was about to do again and Collo was the only one that could get the votes to do it. He said he wasn't there for the long haul and that is exactly how it transpired. I shudder to think what would have happened if Jack remained and we went into the 2003 season more than $1m over the salary cap, on top of the transgressions we were nabbed for.

I think you must spend a lot of time listening to your friends who live near Princes Park and they have a specific point of view.

 

[thylacine60]

Um, this Heinz Bakedbeans character requires direction.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Don't forget,
Ian Collins left Carlton to be management at the then VFL/AFL,
late 80's early 90's.


Just as a point of interest.

 

[celtic_pride]

Don't forget,
Ian Collins left Carlton to be management at the then VFL/AFL,
late 80's early 90's.


Just as a point of interest.

Collo was CEO of the AFL when they gave Diesel that pathetic and unjust 9 week suspension (and took the club to court to overturn the appeal) back in 1997, which is another black mark against Collo's name IMHO.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Collo was CEO of the AFL when they gave Diesel that pathetic and unjust 9 week suspension (and took the club to court to overturn the appeal) back in 1997, which is another black mark against Collo's name IMHO.

Agreeing once again CP.

Collins burnt us down from the outside in.

Once he shit canned the big Liberal guy enough to take the reigns,
and got on the bucking horse that was Carlton,
he found out he didn't have the big money mates.

And he took off again.

 

[The Coach]

I only caught the start of it - he asked for / expected a red and tucker as he was coming in between 1 and 2. It may have been a joke but me thinks not - kind of sums old Jack up

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Elliott of course presided over our first ever wooden spoon, something the club had managed to avoid in the previous 105 seasons of VFL/AFL football & you can blame Parkin & O'Sullivan all you like, but they were in their positions with the full support of Elliott. Parkin of course being brought back to the club by Elliott in 1991.

Nope, a bloke called Steve Gough (currently MCG) was the in-betweener in those days.

What shits me is that when the Liberal Cowboy went down, a lot of people that were involved, suddenly took a step backwards, while the big guy got gunned.

For goddsake don't tell me that Elliott was an Autocrat,
that ruled the club, with no constitution or board member approval.

Dream world aside, there was a Carlton Football Club Board.
and 30,00 screaming members.

 

[carlton_for_life]

What Jack did was he put us in such a bad shape, that the following boards came into fix his mess up, but his mess was too deep... Carlton stands for Finals football, but we played fort eh last postions on the table… NOBODY could match the calibre and greatness of this great club, but he put us on our knees, we became the laughing stock of the town... everybody kicked us while we where down... it was hard to watch, hard to digest the crap we have been through... reading heath Scotland say that they where told to buy their own footballs for training.. like mediumsizered has said no club no matter what should go though that…

and now Wayne Hughes has come along and with his incompetent recruiting is destroying our chance to at least make some of that suffering worthwhile, to impose a bit of meaning on it. playing for last, getting wooden spoons, now means getting rewarded with pick 1s and we got three. it also meant we finished low to get some top 5 picks (4 JK and 3 (masten)) to trade to west coast for the best playeri n the game judd. with those players we should get a premiership.

but hughes has monumentally managed to stuff up almost every pick he has had that wasn't pick 1, negligent recruiting barely any forwards coming through, means we risk not getting a premiership despite having judd murphy gibbs kreuzer. (not to mention fev and waite)

of course u cant bag hughes on here coz ppl like gily worship him, gillys hoping hughes gives him a gig on the recruiting team so he can get some sort of i dno achievement in his pathetic life.

 

[JeffDunne]

The only problem with Collo and his presidency is the Dome deal and we honestly do not know whether he lead the others or not, we can only suspect on this score as the board said he wasn't involved.

Saying you 'honestly do not know' is no different to saying you 'honestly do not know' that Elliott knew about the cap cheating.

It beggars belief that you still trot out that line.

As for the 'only' problem with his management that's head in the sand stuff.

Re-signing Pagan on the back of a preseason win? Remember that one?

If you choose to look at Collo's reign objectively it's hard to see it as anything other than a complete and utter disaster.

I think you must spend a lot of time listening to your friends who live near Princes Park and they have a specific point of view.

I have Carlton friends all over the country.

Not sure the point of that remark.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Saying you 'honestly do not know' is no different to saying you 'honestly do not know' that Elliott knew about the cap cheating.

It beggars belief that you still trot out that line.

As for the 'only' problem with his management that's head in the sand stuff.

Re-signing Pagan on the back of a preseason win? Remember that one?

If you choose to look at Collo's reign objectively it's hard to see it as anything other than a complete and utter disaster.


I have Carlton friends all over the country.

Not sure the point of that remark.

Wait a sec, you are amazed? It beggars belief? Head in the sand? Let's not forget what board you are on before you try and belittle my thoughts here.

So far you have the Williams suspension which had nothing to do with Collo as a president, the move to the Dome which I acknowledged he may have been in the thick of despite all denials by parties at the time, and now you are adding signing Pagan.

It's hardly comparable to the way the club was driven into the ground by Jack just prior, the refusal to rebuild, the boorish drunken behaviour, abusing players in the room, losing sponsorships because he wanted to smoke at the footy, the salary cap breaches, the spiralling debt, and then the outright lies to deny every single bit of it.

Collo wasn't much of a president, I grant you and while I applaud that he took out someone who would have been the death of the club, I was fully aware he wasn't there for the long haul and didn't care that he left.

Still shaking my head here ... he re-signed Pagan? Bloody hell. We re-signed Ratts early as well and still don't know how that will turn out. It's a fairly thin premise.

 

[blue gunslinger]

Was said on ABC radio today that CFC has a worse deal than NM for Docklands - gee thanks Collo!

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Was said on ABC radio today that CFC has a worse deal than NM for Docklands - gee thanks Collo!

He - Collins, caused more damage to the CFC brand,
than any other.

He can count his Carlton mates on his dick.

 

[Smell The Glove]

If you're at the top of the tree you have to blame it on others.

Everyone knows he was implicated, so what's the big deal?

Everyone knows Coca Cola isn't terribly good for your teeth, but the heads of the company won't say that.

Big deal.

Exactly.

Pratt would never have admitted his responsibility in the price fixing scam, and no-on here seems to hold that against him, yet everyone detests Elliot for not admitting his responsibility in the cap cheating scam?

I guess money talks and bullshit walks

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Was said on ABC radio today that CFC has a worse deal than NM for Docklands - gee thanks Collo!

I'm thinking the deals are not straight forward in structure. They are like tax thresholds with the cost changing based on numbers. Too high and the cost to run the ground goes up, too low and you don't get the dollars through the ground.

The figures quoted in the media change daily or at least per game. The Roos lost 150k on a recent game. Not sure we have ever done that.

It is easy to forget that the rest of our board was heavily involved in making this deal. If Collo did sit it out, he was not in a position to tell Carlton not to take the deal and was not in a position to frame the terms on behalf of the Dome.

I am sure there was a scenario where we could have made decent money but maybe the stipulations are counting against us.

I still have to ask people who lament Collo coming in as president, just where they envisaged the club heading under Elliot?

* Would you have been happy for us to continue to cheat the cap year after year?
* Would you have been happy for the club to go to court and tear down the draft and salary cap?
* Were you just hoping that with our debt accumulating, that Pratt would continue to write cheques?
* Do you think we would have Judd now?

Before potting Collins for taking on Elliot (and winning handsomely by member's vote it might pay to remember), you have to look at the big picture and also address what the alternatives were.

I'm happy to say that Collo can go **** himself if he actually set those terms and forced us to take that deal while pretending he wasn't involved. I will not be blaming our woes on Collo and Smorgon so that Elliot's massive part in our troubles is swept under the carpet however.

 

[blue gunslinger]

CFC always will look better as we get more bums on seats however the deal is worse was the point. We would be much better off esp considering our drawing power