John Lennon

[TigerTank]

^LadyBlue^,

Get off your high horse before you get a nose-bleed.

I am old enough to something of the hypocracy that was the hippy movement.

You declare sympathy for "... brothers and sisters being shipped off to killing fields fresh out of high school" and yet it was hippies that sprayed those "brothers and sisters" with red paint and called them murderers when they got back home. Many hippies probably meant well but the movement itself was corrupted by opportunists and extremists.

You make some good points about where modern pop and rock music came from, but please don't re-write history.



------------------
TT - Obligatory bad-tempered Richmond supporter

 

[Olmy]

Originally posted by jod23:

Olmy - have your opinion. Im sick of rehashing the same argument, i like Corgan and the pumpkins but there just not great. There just another band. Sorry.

What, don't tell me you're bailing out on us now! Just when things start to get a bit interesting - can't stand the heat . . .

In any regard, I wouldn't say you've exactly given an 'argument' as to why you don't think Billy Corgan is as good a guitarists as the others - you've merely said you don't regard him in the same class.

There is a big difference between posting an OPINION, and posting an 'argument'. You haven't argued anything yet. In any regard, you fail to realise that all of our opinions, including yours, are pretty much subject to our overall tastes in music. Yes, we do have subjective opinions.

Look, those guitarists you've mentioned are good/great guitarists. And in my view, so is Billy Corgan.

How anyone can say that "one sound is better than another" and assume that everyone should feel/think the same way is beyond me.

That is not what music/art is about. Well, not for me at least.

I'm interested though - what do you think are Harrison's greatest guitar efforts for the Beatles?

And if you want to have a real 'argument/discussion', then I'll expect that you'll at least address some of Corgan's work and give more basis for your claims, than just your OPINION.

 

[johnson]

Jod23,

Listen to yourself!!
"Oh well they brought it on themselves"

Oh yeah, that must be true. All those famous people had absolutely no outside influences in their lives that made them unhappy and therefore considering going down the road they did.

Got to agree to disagree with you.

 

[Darky]

Johnson,

Show me a man with 50 million dollars who aint happy, and I'll show you a fool!



------------------
Face me evil bastard, smell the hate of angels
Glory pride and bloodshed
Cowards and beholders, rapers of my wisdom mix of dust and bones
Go back to your abyss, Darky will not fall, but your heads will soon roll
Test the blade of heroes, fury of the thunder hit my golden shield

 

[Grendel]

Jod, you have a go at me for saying Lennons was one of THE rocknroll voices then you congratulate the Dutchman for saying the same thing?

Playing favourites methinks.....

 

[Dipper]

Hey just thought I'd say a few words in reverance to my hero 'THE LIZARD KING' -Jim Morrisson a true Rock & Roll Genius(a much overused word but in this case totally apt)despite him dying a year or so before I was born I love the guy.He was a man who refused to buckle to other people's views,to the system or to authority in any way-money was no problem & yet he never bought his own house he just slept on people's floors-he was no hippy & yet he couldn't be f@cked with materialism or any of that shit.Listen to his music if you haven't it wil blow your mind & unlike most bands(including the Beatles) he didn't claim individual royalties for the songs he wrote but instaed insisted on group royalties so that everyone got an equal share.
'I AM THE LIZARD KING I CAN DO ANYTHING!'

 

[jod23]

Bee - i love to disagree with you because your SRV comments are silly. Hes good but nothing on Knoffler. And i never said Lennons death was any more tragic than SRV's.

TT - stop dissing Ladyblue. Shes very wise, shes like Yoda. And your Wedge.

Johnson - once again your post has made me laugh. So all these stars who have millions of dollars are just so depressed there pushed to drugs and then it spirals out of control until there tragic death. Hahaha yeah right. More like i have millions of dollars and im bloody happy, lets get stoned!!!!
You seen the Conceirge with Micheal J Fox.
" You think these ppl are happy, you bet your ass there happy. They'll be smilin 6 months after there dead."

Grendel - went back to see if you were right and you were'nt, go back and read carefully.

Olmy - the guitarists i mentioned are world renowned (sp) and respected guitarists. Its public knowledge, opinion or not, that Harrison, Knoffler, Clapton and Hendrix are brilliant and amongst the best if not the best guitarists in the world. Whereas theres Billy Corgan just a guy in a good band. Tell me how many No 1 hits do the Pumpkins have how many classic songs do they have that sets them apart from any other good band in the 90's eg. Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Oasis.
They dont have any, there just another band, a good one that i like but just another band.
On Harrison just off the top of my head songs like ... Carry that Weight, Let it Be, I Me Mine, And your Bird can Sing, In my LIfe, While my Guitar Gently Weeps. There just some of the top of my head.

Dipper - great call on Jim Morrison. I LOVE the Doors. Jim was the American Poet.

"Out here on the Perimeter there are no stars....out here we are stoned .. Immaculate"

"Death makes angels of us all and gives us wings where we had shoulders smooth as ravens claws"

Cheers.

 

[The Dutchman!]

OK Jod

Early beatles period: soft corniness out of control: yesterday, michelle, til there was you (a cover admittedly) etc

Mid-late beatles, soft corniness pretty much sucessfully tamed and songwriting enhanced with mix of lennon edge and Harrison adventure (eg: Hey Jude, Long and Winding Road etc good but not Revolution-Come Together-A Day in the Life good), though still having the occasional: Lovely Rita Meter Made, Maxwell's silver hammer, obla de obla di, The adventures of Rocky Racoon, When I'm 64... soft corny frenzy...

Post beatles / entire Wings career - softer than 6 month old corn cobs. Lines such as: "and the jailer man and sailor Sam were searching everyone...", "we're so sorry Uncle Albert, but the kettle's on the boil and we're so easily called away", "I want a cow, I want a sheep, want to get me a good night's sleep... looking for a home in the heart of the country", "Lovely linda", "Ebony and Ivory". "Say, say, say", "The girl is mine" etc etc...

Not all terrible, just the antithesis of edgy rock... still most of Lennon's Double Fantasy album looked to be going the same way... ironic

Fair enough?
Dutchy

 

[Bee]

Jod, one last thing. I never said that Knopfler wasn't a great guitarist. I just don't rank him up ther with SRV, but that is only my opinion. Maybe because I just did not like Dire Straits. Like I said I respect your opinion, but there are thousands who would disagree with you about SRV.
I found out a long time ago, never argue about politics, religion or music.

Have a nice Christmas.

 

[TigerTank]

Originally posted by jod23:


TT - stop dissing Ladyblue. Shes very wise, shes like Yoda. And your Wedge.

I am NOT Wedge, nor any other rebel, new-age, tree-hugging, anarchist, do-gooder scum.

I loyally serve the Empire in its legitimate and just war to rid the Galaxy of disorder and chaos.



------------------
TT - Obligatory bad-tempered Richmond supporter

 

[TigerTank]

And Alderaan got what it deserved.

------------------
TT - There is no problem that cannot be solved by the prompt application of a Star Destroyer

[This message has been edited by TigerTank (edited 19 December 2000).]

 

[Beausgirl43]

Hey Jod 23, this post has had a stack of responses, just goes to show that the great man is still a rock legend even 20 years after his death.
cheers....

 

[Grendel]

I wrote,
____________________________________________
"Toucan,Lennon sung most of the songs because he had a superb rocknroll voice (something very overlooked imho) also many of the earlier songs were sung by Lennon when he was the 'leader' of the band.
____________________________________________

Jod you then replied,
__________________________________________

"Grendel - first off nice call on Joe Satriani love Always with Me Always with You.
But then you go all downhill.

Lennon didnt sing most the songs cos he had a better rock n roll voice and there was never a leader of the band!"
__________________________________________

So who did have the better voice? Paul,George or Ringo?? Because the way youve written it, you give no indication that you think Johns voice was anything special in that reply.

 

[Olmy]

Originally posted by jod23:
Olmy - the guitarists i mentioned are world renowned (sp) and respected guitarists. Its public knowledge, opinion or not, that Harrison, Knoffler, Clapton and Hendrix are brilliant and amongst the best if not the best guitarists in the world. Whereas theres Billy Corgan just a guy in a good band. Tell me how many No 1 hits do the Pumpkins have how many classic songs do they have that sets them apart from any other good band in the 90's eg. Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Oasis.
They dont have any, there just another band, a good one that i like but just another band.
On Harrison just off the top of my head songs like ... Carry that Weight, Let it Be, I Me Mine, And your Bird can Sing, In my LIfe, While my Guitar Gently Weeps. There just some of the top of my head.

Hmm. IMO (and also that of many others), Billy Corgan is also a world renowned guitarist. Who are you to go around telling people that their opinions are wrong?

And to say that it's "public knowledge" that Harrison et al. are the world greatest guitarists, well . . . . . it's only opinion. Most people in the street have no idea about guitars, but if you asked them who the "greatest" guitarist was they'd say "Hendrix of course". You know why? It's because they don't know of any others! (I bet they don't even know what type of guitar he played). Anyway, even you would have to admit, if you are being objective, that Hendrix's legend has become greater than what he actually was. Has was a great guitarist, but a lot of his efforts, albeit it classics, are now dated, and have been surpassed by other guitarists weilding just as much flare and feedback, as Hendrix ever had. Sure, without Hendrix in the first place, that style of guitar playing may never have become as popular - but that doesn't mean that the guitarists of today cannot be just as good.

To use the argument that the Pumpkins never had any #1 hits and therefore are not a great band, is not valid. At any rate, the element that defines a classic song is only found in an individual's own mind. IMO, songs like "Cherub Rock" and "I Am One" are classics of the 90's. Sure, they didn't sell millions as singles, but music is NOT about selling millions.

So, you think it takes #1 hits to make a band great? Hey, you must be one of the biggest Britney Spears fans ever! I bet you think she's a great guitarist, don't you? All those number 1 hits to her name. Gee, she must sure know how to pull a solo!

I'll tell you, the Pumpkins sold over 20 million records. Anyway, if the Beatles were a new band right now (ie: having released all their original albums in the 90's), do you seriously think they would have had #1 hits? Don't joke around! Music these days is dominated by disposable teen-pop acts, which have been manufactured purposefully to be cynically marketted at the "pocket-money" brigade. Not even the best of the best acts can penetrate for #1 hits these days. (Well, not in Australia or the US at least).

At any rate, you don't need to sell any records what-so-ever to be great. There are tonnes of great bands that most people have probably never even heard of because they're too assured in their own little comfort zone - justifying their own listening tastes on the basis that "hey, millions of others also listen to this - it must be great".

You know, some of the crappest bands around are the ones who sell the most records. Just take a look at the charts over an entire year. It's enough to make you sick. (I know you know that too).

I've read that Bob Dylan has never had a triple platinum record, with very few of his efforts even reaching the primary platinum status (unlike some of the more well known "classic" musicians/bands). Yet, I don't see people going around saying "Bob Dylan couldn't write a tune".

As for the Beatles songs you mentioned as being Harrison's finest moments . . . .

"While My Guitar Gently Weeps" is a great song (I love that song), but hell, Harrison didn't even play the solo. That was a Clapton effort. You can't rate Harrison's soloing efforts on something he didn't even do.

"And Your Bird Can Sing", sure the song is pretty good - but hardly a guitar masterpiece. It's tidy - not something that you are going to listen to and go "Wow, how did he do that" over.

"Let it Be", apart from the song being a classic, and Harrison's solo being extremely good (and a classic piece of music), the solo itself is not particularly special in terms of technique . Hell, I could play that solo when I was 14 (couldn't do that with Corgan's stuff).

Similarly, "Carry that Weight", "I Me Mine", and "In My Life" are all good tunes, but hardly fall into the category of guitar genius. They are songwriting genius, but essentially, the guitar parts are not as complex in comparison to other widely heard material.

Look, Harrison was a great guitarist, an excellent songwriter, and also played some inspiring and fitting solos. But he wasn't the brilliant genius soloist wizz on guitar that you make out. Sure he was good, great in fact, but most of his solos could have been done by any other accomplished guitarist of the time.

That is not to say Harrison isn't a great guitarist, because I believe he is, however, I don't understand how you can have such a view of him that dictates that his talents make the talents of every other pale into insignificance. It is not so.

Now, before you start opening your mouth about Billy Corgan, I suggest you listen to 'Gish' and 'Siamese Dream'.

Most of Corgan's best efforts lie on those two records. Songs such as "I am One", "Tristessa", "Siva", "Snail", "Rhinocerous", "Cherub Rock", "Soma", "Geek USA", "Quiet" are all great examples of Corgan's ability as a solo guitarist. IMO, they rank quite highly amongst guitarists of a similar genre (ie: that type of heavy, psychedelic rock). Unless you've actually heard these, you could hardly give a sincere rating of Corgan's guitar talents.

At any rate, if you consider (for some reason) that the solos on those songs are 'easy', or 'weak' in comparison to solos done by the likes of Knoffler, Harrison, Clapton, or Hendrix, then you should at least give a few reasons why.

IMO, Billy Corgan was one of the few guitarists in popular music in the 90's, who put a new spin on rock music. His composition of songs was excellent, and his talents as a soloist guitar player (ie: one of the few players to use a variety of scales and cover more than just 2 or 3 octaves) were up there with the best of his time (in that genre).

Look Jod23, I respect you opinion regardind Harrison, Clapton, Knoffler, and Hendrix, so why can't you respect my opinion regarding Corgan being a great guitarist? Why do you dimiss his efforts in such a freehanded manner?

 

[mud n blood]

Wow! What a post ....

Add King and Frampton to the list of nominees!



------------------
Anyway, that's what I reckon ........

mud n blood

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

John Williams (a classical guitarist) has more technical ability on a guitar (any guitar) than all the others mentioned put together.

This is not meant to be a put-down of your favourite guitar hero (whoever it may be) but please people - lets get it all into perspective shall we ?

Its only Pop music folks - thats all.

nothing more, nothing less.

cheers

 

[johnson]

Johnson - once again your post has made me laugh. So all these stars who have millions of dollars are just so depressed there pushed to drugs and then it spirals out of control until there tragic death. Hahaha yeah right. More like i have millions of dollars and im bloody happy, lets get stoned!!!!
You seen the Conceirge with Micheal J Fox.
" You think these ppl are happy, you bet your ass there happy. They'll be smilin 6 months after there dead."


Basing posts on a movie, c'mon you're better than that jod23.

I come from a family that is wealthy and contrary to popular belief, there are unhappy people in it. Sure, not all of us are depressed coz we have money, I'm not saying that but money does not make you happy in the long-term. That's what I'm saying about those guys. Often the drugs were an attempt to escape the life they hated and disappear away from the reality life presented. I know that's how my good friend got into drugs, became a well-known jazz musician and hated the limelight.

 

[^LadyBlue^]

Olhmy says: "I'll tell you, the Pumpkins sold over 20 million records. Anyway, if the Beatles were a new band right now (ie: having released all their original albums in the 90's), do you seriously think they would have had #1 hits"

I got news for ya olhmy, they have, indeed, released an album and it IS number 1 - LMAO at you - get your head out of the sand!

 

[jod23]

Dutch - how can you say such masterpeices like Yesterday, Long and Winding Road and Hey Jude were corny. There musical gifts!!!
Others you mentioned such as Maxwell Silverhammer and Rocky Raccoon were brilliant cos it was something different. I know he have our own opinions im just very glad i dont have yours. Lol.

Bee - never argue about Politics, Religion and Music. Hahaha i love it. Merry Christmas all the best

TT - There is no problem that cannot be solved by the prompt application of a Star Destroyer. I love it. Star Wars where would we be without it.

Beausgirl43 - yes it does. What a man. A legend. Id rate him in the Top 10 most influential human beings of all time.

Grendel - you said that Lennon sang most of the songs because he had a better rnr voice. I replied saying that he didnt sing most of the songs because of that reason. He sang the songs he wrote and Paul sang the songs he wrote. But i do think Lennon had a better Rock n Roll voice. Does that clear it up.

Johnson - your on a roll. Ever thought about stand up. hehe ahh man give it up they take drugs to get high. Not cos there sad and cant take it. Oh i just cant spend all this money....look at its millions its too much, damn ill have to do drugs cos i cant spend it !!

Olmy - you get your own special post tommorow but its too late to write now.

Cheers

 

[Olmy]

Originally posted by ^LadyBlue^:
Olhmy says: "I'll tell you, the Pumpkins sold over 20 million records. Anyway, if the Beatles were a new band right now (ie: having released all their original albums in the 90's), do you seriously think they would have had #1 hits"

I got news for ya olhmy, they have, indeed, released an album and it IS number 1 - LMAO at you - get your head out of the sand!

Err, you absolute TWIT!!!! The Beatles #1 album is NOT an original release, merely a compilation!!!! DICKHEAD!!!!! Notice I mentioned 'original' release in my earlier post?

I might have my head in the sand, but you obviously have yours 3 FOOT UP YOUR ARSE!!!

 

[Olmy]

Originally posted by jod23:
Olmy - you get your own special post tommorow but its too late to write now.

Cheers

Jod23, I'm interested in what current bands you like. Personally, my current faves are R.E.M., Radiohead, The Verve, Augie March, Smashing Pumpkins (obivously!), Belle & Sebastian . . . just to name a few (could go on with a whole lot of obscure names, but . . .).

Tell me what you're into!

 

[Olmy]

Jod23 - there is one Harrison song which you haven't mentioned, which I would rate as one of his best from The Beatles era.

It's a song called "It's All Too Much", found on the "Yellow Submarine" songlist. Harrison puts on an excellent show of feedback (layered over the top of the rest of the music), in what amounts to a magnificent song.

"Long, Long, Long", is also a fine Harrison track (although, not so much for guitar heroics as brilliant songwriting).

In fact, I'd have to say that most of Harrison's best efforts for The Beatles, IMO, came on Abbey Road and The White Album. Would you agree?

(Shit, I am still recovering from that idiotic, lunatic response from that ^Lady-headupherarse-Blue^ character - it's unbelievable what some people come out with!).

 

[Grendel]

Gotta admire you Olmy, your sticking by your Pumpkins,and dont we all wish we had done that more often!

btw you ever listen to the Pixies? I always though that Corgan borrowed alot of ideas from them. (But so did heaps of 90s bands)

Cheers

 

[Olmy]

Originally posted by Grendel:
Gotta admire you Olmy, your sticking by your Pumpkins,and dont we all wish we had done that more often!

btw you ever listen to the Pixies? I always though that Corgan borrowed alot of ideas from them. (But so did heaps of 90s bands)

Cheers

Yeah, spot on with the Pixies being ripped off! (Dare I say it, Corgan does wear his influences!).

Apparently, if you can believe what you hear, at one stage K.Cobain was reluctant to release 'Smells Like Teen Spirit', as he felt it would be labelled a "Pixies rip-off".

Another underground band (that comes to mind at the moment) worth giving a few words to is 'My Bloody Valentine'. Although, their last effort was a few years back now.

 

[jod23]

Olmy,

When i said Harrison ect are renouned great guitarists, i meant in the music industry. Everyone involved knows that Harrison Knoppler ect are brilliant guitarists. On your Hendrix comments i agree with you a little that his legend has been blown out somewhat, but i was just watching a Jimi video today and even though its a little blown out it is still justified. That man could do things with a guitar that i have never seen any other person do. Not Clapton not Harrison and certainly not Corgan.

Im not saying you need to sell records to be great but it does help. I know you have your own opinion and that you think songs like "I am One" is a classic and good for you. But the argument im trying to say is that amongst the music Industry you'll find a large percentage think songs like Yesterday, Ticket to Ride, In My Life are classics which they are. Only Pumpkins fans think "i am One" is a classic.

On your comments concerning that the Beatles wouldnt have No 1 hits today is stupid. I think they would have No 1 hits today! Britney Spears, NSync, Backstreet Boys there all Pop songs. The Beatles were the kings of Pop. Please Please Me, Love Me Do, She Loves You, these are just the types of songs that would be No 1 hits today. I bet you a million dollars if The Backstreet Boys did a cover of She Loves You it would go No 1.

"As for the Beatles songs you mentioned as being Harrison's finest moments . . . . "

Your twisting my words i never said the ones i mentioned were his finest moments, I said they were just a few off the top of my head.

While My Guitar Gently Weeps - i had this argument with someone else on this topic. Yes Clapton played it but Harrison wrote it!
You think that he worte the music but couldnt play it hahah c'mon of course he could play it. George and Clapton were great friends at the time and he asked him to come in and play on a track. Just cos he gets a mate to play it doesnt mean he cant play it.

On the other songs you commented on, it seems to me that you think it has to be hard to play to be brilliant. That is ridiculous Harrisons little licks here and there were simple and not particularly hard to play for an accomplished guitarist but thats why they were so great. Simple yet beautiful. Thats what he was about. Unlike Knoffler who always has a huge solos in his songs the Beatles were never like that. There was never a Beatles song which would stop halfway through for George Harrison to have a huge two or three minute solo like Knoffler would.

On the Revolver album out of 14 tracks the longest song goes for 3.01 so theres no time for George to show off. The Bealtles were about the music that all four of them came together and created, it was never about solos and the spotlight. So if you think it has to be intricate, long and really hard to play to be good then your misguided.

Now back to Corgan. I own Siamese Dream and Infinite Sadness so i do like the Pumpkins and i do listen to there stuff. The only song you mentioned that i thought was a stand out was "Cherub Rock". "I am One" "Tristessa" Siva" and the rest are just good rock tunes hardly classics. Now im not degrading Corgan, as far as the last ten or so years i would put him up in the top 5 but of all time his work pales in comparison to the guitarist ive mentioned.

You also mention "IMO, they rank quite highly amongst guitarists of a similar genre (ie: that type of heavy, psychedelic rock)." The Beatles were inspirational at heavy psychedelic rock. There late stuff like anything after 68 was awesome. The whole Sgt Pepper album and stuff like Strawberry Fields and Lucy in the Sky. But i suppose the Beatles and the Pumpkins get beaten hands down in the Psychedelic Rock department by Pink Floyd and especially the Doors.

I agree with you that Corgan and the Pumpkins did great things in the 90's and certainly did things differently which i like but Corgan as good as he is, is no Clapton Harrison Knoffler or Hendrix. Those four guys are actually known for being Lead Guitarists whereas Corgan is more noted as being the frontman of the Pumpkins.

Cheers.