John Meesen's Future

[Drummond]

Saw this post over on another thread, but I thought I'd start a new one concerning Meesen so enough people view it and express their thoughts.

A real worry.

I'm still willing to give him time but he's had pretty much a whole year with Sandy and has yet to do much of note. Considering Jamar often dominates at that level, you have to ask whether he has what it takes.

This coming from his biggest fan, I don't think he does.

He is extremely fit, and I think that's where a lot of the problems come from. People see him dominate on the track during PS and assume he’s going to explode. Neil Craig said how his training over the PS in his second year on the list was so impressive that he would be pressing for senior selection. He played out the year in the SANFL, and although it was a good year of solid development, he didn’t really come close to playing. Come his third year and with Clarke retired and Biglands out of the equation due to a knee injury, it was his year to shine. After another good PS he looked set to at the very least be our backup ruckman. During the NAB Cup he injured his knee and was out for about 3 months. In reality the injury was a massive blow and IMO he never gained full confidence.

At seasons end he opted out of the AFC and turned to his home state to kick start his career. He once again tore it up over the PS (a reoccurring theme) and hee probably thought it would come easier. However it looks as though Dean Bailey has the opposite view, Meesen hasn’t even been named emergency once, despite your rucking woes at times. He is soft and I tended to overlook this as he was my favourite player. Late last year he blatantly pulled out of a marking contest in one of the most pitiful displays I’ve seen. He doesn’t like physical contact and his ruckwork leaves a lot to be desired. He doesn’t have a huge leap and I lost count how many times he ended up on the ground after a ruck contest. Does this still occur? His skills are good, especially by hand as he is very creative and he sets up teammates very well. He is super fit and thrives on more responsibility IMO so giving him bit parts won’t work too well. Late last year he showed the ability to go forward and kick a goal and I even got to thinking maybe that’s his best position? However he’s probably not strong enough in the air to pose as a real goalkicking thread.

So my question to Demons fans and those who have seen him this year, does he still struggle in the areas I raised? I have read that his intensity is still a concern and given this hasn't improved in 4 years it might never get to the required level. It’s really had to imagine how this top 10 draft pick who came to Adelaide with such huge wraps has been such a letdown. At best I think he has Josh Fraser potential but as each day passes I can see him becoming a genuine dud. Ruckmen take their time but the signs aren't good. What's his contract situation?

 

[w00dy]

interesting thoughts...

a couple of weeks ago i actually had a look around the Adelaide board and read up on everyone's thoughts on him from his time at Adelaide... wasn't terribly encouraging...

The way most of our younger players have developed this season suggests that if anyone is going to make Meesen a player, it would be under Dean Bailey.

Bails did mention in one of his confrences that John would perhaps get an opportunity later in the season. Will be interesting to see how he'd go with a couple of games at AFL level.

Would his game perhaps be suited to AFL level more than VFL level? The use of his athleticism maybe more suited than the less predictable VFL?

I would imagine he was given a 2 year deal when he came to the club. So he may have one more year to show us something.

 

[Cap]

Saw this post over on another thread, but I thought I'd start a new one concerning Meesen so enough people view it and express their thoughts.


This coming from his biggest fan, I don't think he does.

He is extremely fit, and I think that's where a lot of the problems come from. People see him dominate on the track during PS and assume he’s going to explode. Neil Craig said how his training over the PS in his second year on the list was so impressive that he would be pressing for senior selection. He played out the year in the SANFL, and although it was a good year of solid development, he didn’t really come close to playing. Come his third year and with Clarke retired and Biglands out of the equation due to a knee injury, it was his year to shine. After another good PS he looked set to at the very least be our backup ruckman. During the NAB Cup he injured his knee and was out for about 3 months. In reality the injury was a massive blow and IMO he never gained full confidence.

At seasons end he opted out of the AFC and turned to his home state to kick start his career. He once again tore it up over the PS (a reoccurring theme) and hee probably thought it would come easier. However it looks as though Dean Bailey has the opposite view, Meesen hasn’t even been named emergency once, despite your rucking woes at times. He is soft and I tended to overlook this as he was my favourite player. Late last year he blatantly pulled out of a marking contest in one of the most pitiful displays I’ve seen. He doesn’t like physical contact and his ruckwork leaves a lot to be desired. He doesn’t have a huge leap and I lost count how many times he ended up on the ground after a ruck contest. Does this still occur? His skills are good, especially by hand as he is very creative and he sets up teammates very well. He is super fit and thrives on more responsibility IMO so giving him bit parts won’t work too well. Late last year he showed the ability to go forward and kick a goal and I even got to thinking maybe that’s his best position? However he’s probably not strong enough in the air to pose as a real goalkicking thread.

So my question to Demons fans and those who have seen him this year, does he still struggle in the areas I raised? I have read that his intensity is still a concern and given this hasn't improved in 4 years it might never get to the required level. It’s really had to imagine how this top 10 draft pick who came to Adelaide with such huge wraps has been such a letdown. At best I think he has Josh Fraser potential but as each day passes I can see him becoming a genuine dud. Ruckmen take their time but the signs aren't good. What's his contract situation?

nice summary, i have to be honest that i have come on here looking for his name on a regualar basis.
you'd say he has another year though ? would have got another contract surely ?

 

[Bartram_Class]

I'm sure he would be on a two-year deal though at this rate, I'd be delisting him ahead of Jamar.

He may get lucky if White chooses to pull the pin. He has to show something between now and the end of the season though, our rookie Jake Spencer has been out-performing him for Sandy this year.

 

[The Dr]

Yeah, i had high hopes for this fella at the start of the season but (without ever seeing him play) it seems he isn't going to make it at AFL level.

All the reports I've read seem to be the same - amazing physical attributes but doesn't like the tough stuff needed to play AFL footy.

The only thing I can think of - this may be a bit outrageous - is playing him as a super tall wingman, like the Tigers do with Richo these days.

If he's definately not going to make it as a ruckman, maybe the space on the flanks might be his go, where he can just run up and back without the bash and crash of ruckwork.

Probably not going to work, but might be worth a shot.

 

[w00dy]

If he's definately not going to make it as a ruckman, maybe the space on the flanks might be his go, where he can just run up and back without the bash and crash of ruckwork.

Probably not going to work, but might be worth a shot.

that could work... it would allow him to concentrate on just finding the footy, learning where to run and position himself to get his hands on the ball, without having to worry about getting to bounces to contest the ruck...

 

[McLean_4_Captain]

that could work... it would allow him to concentrate on just finding the footy, learning where to run and position himself to get his hands on the ball, without having to worry about getting to bounces to contest the ruck...

But to warrant giving him that spot in the side he'd have to start racking up the possession in the VFL and at the moment he's not even getting enough for a ruckman.

I mean, a few weeks ago Jamar went back to the VFL and dominated in the ruck and had 25 touches, Meesan is average at best in the ruck and getting 15 touches or less. That's just not enough.

I think there might be potential for him to be the biggest 3rd tall ever as you've suggested, but he'd have to be tested in the position at VFL level.

I'd think that they'll persist with him as a ruckman this year and into the beginning of next. If he's still not making as a ruckman they'll try something radical to re-invent him like playing him as a flanker and if he doesn't make the melbourne best 22 by the end of next year then he wont have his contract re-newed.

I think he has the attributes to be Dean Cox better then Cox is at being Cox. He supposedly has this enormous tank, but he's not using. Time after time i here him being called "a huge wingman more then a ruckman" but i'm yet to see anything like that.

But the realist in me says he'll be gone at the end of next year.

 

[The Dr]

But to warrant giving him that spot in the side he'd have to start racking up the possession in the VFL and at the moment he's not even getting enough for a ruckman.

I mean, a few weeks ago Jamar went back to the VFL and dominated in the ruck and had 25 touches, Meesan is average at best in the ruck and getting 15 touches or less. That's just not enough.

I think there might be potential for him to be the biggest 3rd tall ever as you've suggested, but he'd have to be tested in the position at VFL level.

I'd think that they'll persist with him as a ruckman this year and into the beginning of next. If he's still not making as a ruckman they'll try something radical to re-invent him like playing him as a flanker and if he doesn't make the melbourne best 22 by the end of next year then he wont have his contract re-newed.

I think he has the attributes to be Dean Cox better then Cox is at being Cox. He supposedly has this enormous tank, but he's not using. Time after time i here him being called "a huge wingman more then a ruckman" but i'm yet to see anything like that.

But the realist in me says he'll be gone at the end of next year.quote]

I tend to agree, unfortunately.

But I would like to see the club play him as a wingman or a 3rd tall when (if it hasn't happened already) it's decided he won't make it as a ruckman.

If that experiment fails, then it's time to let him go...

 

[davey_magik]

Who did Adelaide get with the pick we gave up for him?

 

[RandB]

Who did Adelaide get with the pick we gave up for him?

Brad Moran from the Kangaroos.

 

[The Dr]

Brad Moran from the Kangaroos.

Looks like a win-win for us and the Crows....

 

[saj_21]

Looks like a win-win for us and the Crows....

I was just lookin at last years draft, kangaroos then used that pick to get scott tompson from geelong reserves. Our next pikc after that was number 53 which we used on kyle cheney. In between 37 and 53, Chris Mayne has been the only bloke to paly some good senior footy, whilst armfield for carlton has played a couple of games and looks ok and polkinghorne for brisbane i have not seen much of.

 

[Supermercado]

Still waiting for the stickied Meesen thread...

 

[McLean_4_Captain]

I was just lookin at last years draft, kangaroos then used that pick to get scott tompson from geelong reserves. Our next pikc after that was number 53 which we used on kyle cheney. In between 37 and 53, Chris Mayne has been the only bloke to paly some good senior footy, whilst armfield for carlton has played a couple of games and looks ok and polkinghorne for brisbane i have not seen much of.

Yeah but it's hard to see us picking up either thompson or armfield, thompson has played a few years in the VFL and was mature pick (i think 21) and armfield played a few years in the WAFL and is 21.

Mayne was also a bit older at 19 and didn't play in the u18s National Champs because he was too old.

So really i think that at moment it's only really polkinghorne, so i'd say the chance of Meesan becoming a ruckman was worth giving up the pick. He might not work out, but i dont think taking the chance was a waste of a pick, no regrets

 

[cannons]

Yeah but it's hard to see us picking up either thompson or armfield, thompson has played a few years in the VFL and was mature pick (i think 21) and armfield played a few years in the WAFL and is 21.

Mayne was also a bit older at 19 and didn't play in the u18s National Champs because he was too old.

So really i think that at moment it's only really polkinghorne, so i'd say the chance of Meesan becoming a ruckman was worth giving up the pick. He might not work out, but i dont think taking the chance was a waste of a pick, no regrets

Yeah, I agree. He is worth the risk of giving up a pick, particularly given this amazing potential that he apparently has.

I can't really comment on how he's going, as I've only seen him play once in the VFL. From that match, it seemed he would get to a contest, but with a lack of any meaning attached to his efforts. It was like he made a token effort to get there, but with no intention of having an impact.

I know that sounds rough, but that's what I gathered from my personal observations.

In saying that, I'm happy for him to stay on and attempt to improve his form and work his way into the team. His fitness is obviously a key attribute of his and that makes me think he may be well suited to an AFL position. As it isn't likely there will be anything to play for, it might be interesting to see how he goes at AFL level. As with anything, time will tell I suppose.

 

[afterburner]

I was excited at the thought of picking John up too. My reasoning being that Bailey (having come from Adelaide himself) must have seen something in the kid in the SANFL that was too good to give up on. I saw him play in Bendigo and at Casey Fields in the pre-season and he looked like he was struggling with the pace of the game.

I for one think he is worth persisting with. He is young, big and if you compare him with the other ruckman taken close to him in their draft year, Cam Wood, a little behind, but Wood is hardly setting the world on fire.

We are currently the bottom side, we have a list of good young kids, but a number of older players to be turned over in the next one/two years, now is not the time to be deciding the future of Meesen.

Now to go OT for a second. There seems to be this perception that all ruckman need to pick up high possessions to be effective (I think it is the effect of Supercoach - he he doesn't score high, he's no good). However, good ruckwork is still about hit-outs to advantage. Next time, prior to condemning Jamar, go back and watch a tape of him rucking and pay attention to his hand positioning. I think it will come as a surprise to eveyone.

 

[saj_21]

I was excited at the thought of picking John up too. My reasoning being that Bailey (having come from Adelaide himself) must have seen something in the kid in the SANFL that was too good to give up on. I saw him play in Bendigo and at Casey Fields in the pre-season and he looked like he was struggling with the pace of the game.

I for one think he is worth persisting with. He is young, big and if you compare him with the other ruckman taken close to him in their draft year, Cam Wood, a little behind, but Wood is hardly setting the world on fire.

We are currently the bottom side, we have a list of good young kids, but a number of older players to be turned over in the next one/two years, now is not the time to be deciding the future of Meesen.

Now to go OT for a second. There seems to be this perception that all ruckman need to pick up high possessions to be effective (I think it is the effect of Supercoach - he he doesn't score high, he's no good). However, good ruckwork is still about hit-outs to advantage. Next time, prior to condemning Jamar, go back and watch a tape of him rucking and pay attention to his hand positioning. I think it will come as a surprise to eveyone.

You dont needt high possession but u need more out of your ruckman than 5 or 6 touches a game which is wat jamar hs produced. I would be happy seing him get 12-13 at least. Jamar may get a lot of taps but to not many to advantage, hit outs is was one of the most over rated stat in AFL these days.

 

[afterburner]

You dont needt high possession but u need more out of your ruckman than 5 or 6 touches a game which is wat jamar hs produced. I would be happy seing him get 12-13 at least. Jamar may get a lot of taps but to not many to advantage, hit outs is was one of the most over rated stat in AFL these days.

You have to be kidding me???? The overriding issue with Meesen seems to be that he was drafted as a ruckman but he has no impact on games. He can act as a link man, or play as a wing man (OT his new nickname is Ice-Man?), but he is too 'soft' to play in the ruck!

If hitouts are so over rated why are some people on this board pulling themselves off over NN for the national draft? Why have ruckman at all if hit outs are so over rated?

 

[McLean_4_Captain]

You dont needt high possession but u need more out of your ruckman than 5 or 6 touches a game which is wat jamar hs produced. I would be happy seing him get 12-13 at least. Jamar may get a lot of taps but to not many to advantage, hit outs is was one of the most over rated stat in AFL these days.

That's spot on, he doesn't need to get 25 touches, but he should be mobile enough to get into space and get 3-4 touches a quarter and average at least 12-15 a game. Jamar averages 8 touches this year and that career high, his full career average is 5.3, so at least he's improving He's only had more then 10 touches twice, both times 12 against brisbane, where as PJ hasn't had less then 10 and has had 15 or more 3 times this year.

I think that the signs are pretty ominous that Meesen will never be a No.1 ruckman for anyone and while we have PJ on our list he'll never make the melbourne team. They're too similar in that they not great in the ruck but mobile enough to get away from their opponent and can be damaging because of their mobility.

Jamar signed a 2 year contract at the end of last year and white is out of contract at the end of this year, so i'd say that white will be shown the door if we get a ruckman.

Meesen will have next year to prove that he's better for us to keep then elevating Spencer or getting someone else, as most teams have at least 4 ruckman on their senior list. So unless he can eclipse Jamar by the end of next year Meesen will go and amazingly Jamar would still be 1 of our best 3 ruckman and probably be given another 2 year contract, keeping him at the club until 2011!!

He should scrape up 100 games by then and we can look forward to the Russian mark II in 2030 as a FS pick!!

 

[RandB]

You dont needt high possession but u need more out of your ruckman than 5 or 6 touches a game which is wat jamar hs produced. I would be happy seing him get 12-13 at least. Jamar may get a lot of taps but to not many to advantage, hit outs is was one of the most over rated stat in AFL these days.

The number of hitouts a ruckman "wins" needs to be put into perspective and only then will the stats be properly appreciated. Now Saj I don't want to start another arguement because in part I understand what you are saying. However hitouts is a very misunderstood statistic and so is efficiency.

Against Brisbane, Mark Jamar had 27 hitouts at 12% efficiency. That is 27 hitouts his opposing ruckmen didn't win. 12% efficiency sounds low, in fact it is low but that is not the entire point. The more bounces/throwins Jamar gets his paws on, the lower his effiency will be. The reason is that the harder to place balls are more of a spoil of his opponent and bringing it to a 50/50 situation. With PJ, he just doesn't do that. PJ gets his hands on significantly less bounces/throwins, pretty much the ones that fall in his lap and that is why his efficeincy is higher. Some times stats don't tell the real story but if you look further into it then they actually are useful if you understand their siginificance. If PJ was our number 1 ruckman then we would be getting killed in the middle every week. Not just because of less taps "won" for us but also because of less spoils on opponents - they would have a field day.

Believe me, if you lose a ruckman who can get the sort of hitouts Jamar gets you will notice it. I understand that ruckmen don't dominate clearances like they used to but you still need a good one to keep the status quo or you will give away easy or 50/50 taps to the opposition and over the duration of a game that will hurt your side.

Incidentally, Jamar had more possession, more contested possession and obviously more hitouts than PJ against the Lions. Because PJ rucks less, he generally gets a few more possies. Admittedly PJ has good disposal for a "big man" and his chase of (Sherman I think) was sensational but he doesn't deliver enough as a tall player - which at the end of the day is why he is in the team. This is not just in the ruck but also around the ground.

Most of PJs possesions are when he is in the clear. He rarely takes a pack mark or a contested mark and he has no confidence going for leaping (tall player)marks. Just look at the last 30 seconds against the Lions when they went forward. PJ should have taken that mark but he had no confidence, he just tapped it backwards - we were very lucky to get it back out and get it to Austin. PJ is a tryer and I appreciate the good things he does but people need to put into perspective that we are not getting the benefits (IMO anyway) out of him that you should get from a tall player.

 

[saj_21]

You have to be kidding me???? The overriding issue with Meesen seems to be that he was drafted as a ruckman but he has no impact on games. He can act as a link man, or play as a wing man (OT his new nickname is Ice-Man?), but he is too 'soft' to play in the ruck!

If hitouts are so over rated why are some people on this board pulling themselves off over NN for the national draft? Why have ruckman at all if hit outs are so over rated?

No i am not kidding, i should of elaborated hit outs to advantage is far greater indicator of a ruckmans worth.

People are "pulling themslelves" over Natia becuase of a) his gigantic leap (not his weekly hit out total) and b) his ability to win the ball at ground level for a big man.

And if hit outs are so useful name a game and back it up with stats were a team won based on the amount of hit outs they had???

read this article

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/afl/thestars/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_great_ruck_myth/

 

[RandB]

No i am not kidding, i should of elaborated hit outs to advantage is far greater indicator of a ruckmans worth.

Please define this.

 

[afterburner]

Saj, a couple of points to consider.

Firstly, I'm not having a go at you, so don't take this so personally. My main comments are directed in general.

Now to go OT for a second. There seems to be this perception that all ruckman need to pick up high possessions to be effective (I think it is the effect of Supercoach - if he doesn't score high, he's no good). However, good ruckwork is still about hit-outs to advantage. Next time, prior to condemning Jamar, go back and watch a tape of him rucking and pay attention to his hand positioning. I think it will come as a surprise to eveyone.

This post is about hit-out to advantage, a point you subsequently agreed on.

The second point you raised regards Jamar's rate of posession. You quote a figure of 5-6 touches a game as not being good enough.

You dont needt high possession but u need more out of your ruckman than 5 or 6 touches a game which is wat jamar hs produced. I would be happy seing him get 12-13 at least.

This stat of 5-6 touches a game is used by others too, but let's not forget he hasn't traditionally got a lot of game time. He works well in the VFL becasue he gets more game time, and he worked well last weekend for the same reason. Incidently he picked up 12 touches on the weekend with a disposal efficiency of 67%, you must be happy with that effort.

Third, you ask me to back up my argument with facts and figures and then you list a blog as your reference? The issue as I see it however is that Gerard Healy makes the assurtion that Ruckwork is dying because hit-outs to advantage are down compared to years gone. The logical implication from this is the most important part of ruckwork are hit-outs to advantage? So thanks for listing this blog to confirm my argument.

And if hit outs are so useful name a game and back it up with stats were a team won based on the amount of hit outs they had???



read this article



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/afl/thestars/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_great_ruck_myth/

Back on topic though, I don't know that Meesen is a genuine ruck option for Melbourne. He's young and ruckmen take time to develop however, so I'm not going to lynch the kid just yet.

 

[KTLK]

Pick 37 at this stage is definately a "waste"

 

[Swampfox]

His future is in his own hands

His oppurtunity has never been better to step up to the plate due to our poor ruckman stocks