Johnson and Lockyer

[Gary2010]

The "Mick plays his favourites" line is wearing thin and just makes excuses for players that haven't stepped up yet.



The truth is no kids were good enough to push Tarks and Johnno out last year.



Make no mistake, if there were players killing it they would be picked by the selection panel in a heart beat.

 

[smiddaz123]

I'll direct you to the archives.

Pre-2007 I felt like I was holding down the fort by myself defending him.

Most of the Collingwood posters on Bigfooty tend to malign players to no end for the littlest of reasons before the becme "fashionable". Players cop crap here for little or no reason.

You realise you didn't actually direct him to said archives?

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Clearly you like Tarks given your name.

Far too much politics on the boards.

If we want to win games we want faster more talented players ie. our new draft picks to play as much as possible. If they fail badly then give these older slower guys a game. Thats my opinion anyway. Do you want us to be average or be great. These two players will never make our team great so by giving young players a go we give us the chance to be great.

Of course, the downside of that is that these younger guys you mention only have potential.

Chris Egan and Luke Molan had potential. Look at where that's got them.

Basically, the club has to make decisions that are based upon playing the 22 players that will give the club the most upside, considering both the present and the future. There's no point going out and playing top draft picks simply because they are just that. Like any player on the list, they have to perform well enough to warrant giving them the experience at AFL level.

The makings of a great team are how the team gels. Lockyer and Johnson both offer their own attributes and unique skills, and if the team gels better with them in it than a young draftee, that's what creates a great team. I challenge you to find a better non-elite utility than Tarkyn Lockyer in the competition. Besides those freaky players that are the sublime of the competition that ca do it all; Gary Ablett, Luke Hodge, it's players like Andrew Welsh, Jason Blake and Tarkyn Lockyer that give their respective clubs that extra dimension. You don't mould a player to take over per se from another, but Brent Macaffer has the potential and the tools to become that utility that Collingwood have had for over a decade in Lockyer. Whether he has the ethic and desire to play his role for the team will dictate whether he truly makes that transition and ultimately keeps Lockyer out of the team.

A team is made great by fielding the best gelling 22, and not necessarily the most talented. At the moment, Lockyer's role improves the Collingwood side by creating a freedom in rotations, knowing that the gap between his best and worst is relatively microscopic, and that his consistency and ethic can be relied on 100%. Without that someone like Tarkyn Lockyer wouldn't be playing AFL.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

You realise you didn't actually direct him to said archives?

Fair enough. Search for posts by MarkT, in conjunction with Tarkyn Lockyer in the search engine. I guarantee you'll chance upon his idiotic tirade.

 

[Mossi]

Of course, the downside of that is that these younger guys you mention only have potential.

Chris Egan and Luke Molan had potential. Look at where that's got them.

Basically, the club has to make decisions that are based upon playing the 22 players that will give the club the most upside, considering both the present and the future. There's no point going out and playing top draft picks simply because they are just that. Like any player on the list, they have to perform well enough to warrant giving them the experience at AFL level.

The makings of a great team are how the team gels. Lockyer and Johnson both offer their own attributes and unique skills, and if the team gels better with them in it than a young draftee, that's what creates a great team. I challenge you to find a better non-elite utility than Tarkyn Lockyer in the competition. Besides those freaky players that are the sublime of the competition that ca do it all; Gary Ablett, Luke Hodge, it's players like Andrew Welsh, Jason Blake and Tarkyn Lockyer that give their respective clubs that extra dimension. You don't mould a player to take over per se from another, but Brent Macaffer has the potential and the tools to become that utility that Collingwood have had for over a decade in Lockyer. Whether he has the ethic and desire to play his role for the team will dictate whether he truly makes that transition and ultimately keeps Lockyer out of the team.

A team is made great by fielding the best gelling 22, and not necessarily the most talented. At the moment, Lockyer's role improves the Collingwood side by creating a freedom in rotations, knowing that the gap between his best and worst is relatively microscopic, and that his consistency and ethic can be relied on 100%. Without that someone like Tarkyn Lockyer wouldn't be playing AFL.

Great post Tarkin 24! No doubt we all have countless opinions on our players. People forget that it is a team game after all and in the end that is what counts!! Look at who in my my mind was one of the greatest footballers or team footballers I have ever seen in Nathan Buckley who was a better player than most players who have won a premiership but because he was not fortunate enough to be surrounded by a team good enough, could not win the ultimate prize. Tarks and Johnno are not the cream in our side but contribute week after week and because they may not be superstars it's easy to lay into them. I bet few of you were not screaming when Johnno drilled those two goals against Adelaide in the second quarter!! Tarks you have to see all the work he does around packs and shepherting to understand his value ... for some that is too hard to see but that is what the game is all about working as a team. I must agree that if they do drop off and as the young blokes become ready they will be relegated to the seconds but let the coaches sort it out!

 

[dswan]

Leigh Brown is awesome though right tarks

 

[soreplums]

I think time and the youngsters coming through are creeping up on these two lads. I've loved Johnson since he laid "THAT" tackle against port in the goal square during the qualifying final in 2002. He has been very solid for us and his kicking has improved a bit, but at 29, I wouldn't be surprised if he played his last couple of years at GC (with possibly corrie).
Tarks has been great for us too... Right up there as one of the most accurate kicks in the club/afl for so long, but I too see Macaffer being his eventual successor. If this is the case and Lockyer moves on from our senior list, I would love to see him as Captain of the twos for a couple of years and help guide our youngsters (as important as o'bree has been for us, he would be good helping Tarks in this role too).

 

[Tarkyn_24]

I think time and the youngsters coming through are creeping up on these two lads. I've loved Johnson since he laid "THAT" tackle against port in the goal square during the qualifying final in 2002. He has been very solid for us and his kicking has improved a bit, but at 29, I wouldn't be surprised if he played his last couple of years at GC (with possibly corrie).
Tarks has been great for us too... Right up there as one of the most accurate kicks in the club/afl for so long, but I too see Macaffer being his eventual successor. If this is the case and Lockyer moves on from our senior list, I would love to see him as Captain of the twos for a couple of years and help guide our youngsters (as important as o'bree has been for us, he would be good helping Tarks in this role too).

I see Tarkyn as a future CEO of the club. He's an awesome speaker and clearly thinks through what he says.

 

[pauly_moss]

Lockyer easily in or best 22, not overly quick not a massive kick but one player that reads the play extremly well better then most an absolute must in our side. Last year was going to be Tarkyn's final year but the taste of a premiership has kept him going (So a friend of his told me so is just heresay). I do expect this to be his last year but hopefully we can send him off in style.

I do remember another slow player that couldnt kick long whose name was Tony Shaw this is who Lockyer reminds me of in the way in how he aquires his possessions.

 

[loki04]

David Teague won a BnF as well, who gives a shit.
Doesn't change the fact Johnson is a shit footballer who personifies the reason we haven't won a premiership in so long.

All the sentimental shit needs to be thrown to the wind when discussing the team going forward, it is completely irrelevant to make note of how a player has "given everything" in the past when assessing the best team for the future.

God forbid we don't all sit around circle jerking over the commitment the players have shown in playing for the black and white, while we sit back and pay their triple figure salaries.

In saying that though, no-one rubbished Lockyer and I doubt they would. He has been a great servant to the club, but I don't see why it is taboo to talk about his spot in the team simply because he is a veteran of the club?
Johnson isn't up to the standard, never has been and never will be. I don't see the point in sugar coating my view on the matter simply because he has had a prolonged career thanks to MM.

Top post especially the bolded!

Not just for Johno either this should apply to O'bree, Toovey, L.brown and anyone else who is a shit kick of the footy or has massive holes in their game or has failed to fire when it counts.

We have had posters saying it for years, we will not win a flag with so many big heart little skill players in the best 22.

 

[loki04]

Great post Tarkin 24! No doubt we all have countless opinions on our players. People forget that it is a team game after all and in the end that is what counts!! Look at who in my my mind was one of the greatest footballers or team footballers I have ever seen in Nathan Buckley who was a better player than most players who have won a premiership but because he was not fortunate enough to be surrounded by a team good enough, could not win the ultimate prize. Tarks and Johnno are not the cream in our side but contribute week after week and because they may not be superstars it's easy to lay into them. I bet few of you were not screaming when Johnno drilled those two goals against Adelaide in the second quarter!! Tarks you have to see all the work he does around packs and shepherting to understand his value ... for some that is too hard to see but that is what the game is all about working as a team. I must agree that if they do drop off and as the young blokes become ready they will be relegated to the seconds but let the coaches sort it out!

Why wasn't that team good enough because MM selects players of the ilk of G.Richards, B.Kinnear, D.Fanning, R.Lonie, L.Brown, M.Lokan, B.Johnson, S.O'bree, A.Toovey, Nick Maxwell pre 2009 ect the list is long and all have a massive weakness in their game that can be exposed.

Too many in the one side is bad 1 - 2 max in a flag side, even your meat and potatoes players need to be of a reasonable standard.

Tarkyn is of the standard if you lack in an area make up for it with skill (ie a good solid player with neat skills).

Our list is looking great and so is our top22 if the right players are selected and chosen, not the same ol same ol.

 

[charmer]

David Teague won a BnF as well, who gives a shit.
Doesn't change the fact Johnson is a shit footballer who personifies the reason we haven't won a premiership in so long.

All the sentimental shit needs to be thrown to the wind when discussing the team going forward, it is completely irrelevant to make note of how a player has "given everything" in the past when assessing the best team for the future.

God forbid we don't all sit around circle jerking over the commitment the players have shown in playing for the black and white, while we sit back and pay their triple figure salaries.

In saying that though, no-one rubbished Lockyer and I doubt they would. He has been a great servant to the club, but I don't see why it is taboo to talk about his spot in the team simply because he is a veteran of the club?
Johnson isn't up to the standard, never has been and never will be. I don't see the point in sugar coating my view on the matter simply because he has had a prolonged career thanks to MM.

LOL the team that David Teague won a B&F in is a darn sight different to the sides Johnno was 2nd best of. You cannot in no way, shape or form compare Carlton's pathetic filth of a team that Teague was by default best of to Collingwood of 2006 who made the finals.

As for the "sentimental shit", are you one of the people who criticised Essendon for basically forcing the hands of Matthew Lloyd and Scott Lucas? as well as Jason Johnson all who had been great servants of their club, particularly Lloyd and Lucas. And what about Luke Ball? We all bag Ross Lyon and St. Kilda for treating him like shit yet we want to do the same to the great servants of our club. And I'm not only speaking of Johnson and Lockyer, but also Anthony Rocca. Some of the posts I read on here and on Nick's were an absolute disgrace.

Saying that Johnson "never was and never will be" up to AFL standard is a single-minded statement that is all part of your anonymous internet hardcore with the keyboard persona. You don't come second in a B&F behind Alan Didak by being a plodder who was never good enough to play AFL.

 

[charmer]

Why wasn't that team good enough because MM selects players of the ilk of G.Richards, B.Kinnear, D.Fanning, R.Lonie, L.Brown, M.Lokan, B.Johnson, S.O'bree, A.Toovey, Nick Maxwell pre 2009 ect the list is long and all have a massive weakness in their game that can be exposed.

Too many in the one side is bad 1 - 2 max in a flag side, even your meat and potatoes players need to be of a reasonable standard.

Tarkyn is of the standard if you lack in an area make up for it with skill (ie a good solid player with neat skills).

Our list is looking great and so is our top22 if the right players are selected and chosen, not the same ol same ol.

So who would you have played ahead of Richards? seeing as we had a surplus of top class ruckman around the time he was playing? Same goes for Fanning. How do you think Nick Maxwell became the player he has? Because MM showed great faith in him, he experienced the ups and downs of playing a game of AFL and now he is an experienced captain and one of the most important players in our side. If you were coach, obviously Maxy wouldn't be playing for us anymore

O'Bree has been one of our best clearance players and tacklers for years now, I'd hate to have seen where we'd have been a few years ago without him in the side. So you're saying that Leigh Brown wasn't a good player at all for us in 2009? for the entire year where he performed better than Dawes at AFL level he still didn't deserve a spot?

And as for Toovey - how do you expect any player to improve in the AFL without gaining experience at the highest level? there is only so much you can learn in the VFL and I think it is a credit to MM for the faith he has shown in his players and that is why we are in the position we are in today. Because the players know that they will be given a fair go and if they make a mistake they know that their coach still believes in them and will give them the oppotunity to make amends.

 

[loki04]

So who would you have played ahead of Richards? seeing as we had a surplus of top class ruckman around the time he was playing? Same goes for Fanning. How do you think Nick Maxwell became the player he has? Because MM showed great faith in him, he experienced the ups and downs of playing a game of AFL and now he is an experienced captain and one of the most important players in our side. If you were coach, obviously Maxy wouldn't be playing for us anymore

O'Bree has been one of our best clearance players and tacklers for years now, I'd hate to have seen where we'd have been a few years ago without him in the side. So you're saying that Leigh Brown wasn't a good player at all for us in 2009? for the entire year where he performed better than Dawes at AFL level he still didn't deserve a spot?

And as for Toovey - how do you expect any player to improve in the AFL without gaining experience at the highest level? there is only so much you can learn in the VFL and I think it is a credit to MM for the faith he has shown in his players and that is why we are in the position we are in today. Because the players know that they will be given a fair go and if they make a mistake they know that their coach still believes in them and will give them the oppotunity to make amends.

Maybe if we actually went to the draft and tried drafting ruckman in the 7 years he was on the list we would of had options, we tried to use a rookie ex BBaller (Fanning) and convert him instead or conversly used KPP because Malthouse didn't rate the ruck role.

Maxwell would of been in my VFL side in 06/07/08 where he was cusp 22 in many peoples eyes, unless he improved like he did in 09 which he did have a great year still is weak 1v1 and makes some poor kicking mistakes at times though improved.

O'bree role would have been filled, just like Licuria's, Holland and Burns have been, teams adapt.

I can count the amount of good games L.Brown had on 1 hand, he was largely gifted games.

Tell that to Stanley and Brayden Shaw, Toovey never had even VFL form when he was promoted. True he has improved but still combined with other players who turn it over is 1 too many so if Tooves is in others have to be out. depth player unless he can further improve his decision maki9ng and skills.

Just imo we can not afford to have so many weak spots in our 22 and is why we struggle against true quality teams, the addition of Jolly and Ball will improve it and the development of younger players I am excited by the year to come if somewhat on the cautious side.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Why wasn't that team good enough because MM selects players of the ilk of G.Richards, B.Kinnear, D.Fanning, R.Lonie, L.Brown, M.Lokan, B.Johnson, S.O'bree, A.Toovey, Nick Maxwell pre 2009 ect the list is long and all have a massive weakness in their game that can be exposed.

Too many in the one side is bad 1 - 2 max in a flag side, even your meat and potatoes players need to be of a reasonable standard.

Tarkyn is of the standard if you lack in an area make up for it with skill (ie a good solid player with neat skills).

Our list is looking great and so is our top22 if the right players are selected and chosen, not the same ol same ol.

So which rookies from Fanning, Maxwell and Toovey's respective rookie drafts would you have taken? Ditto with picks after Leigh Brown?

Really he picked relatively decent players there with the available selections.

 

[loki04]

So which rookies from Fanning, Maxwell and Toovey's respective rookie drafts would you have taken? Ditto with picks after Leigh Brown?

Really he picked relatively decent players there with the available selections.

So we only had rookie picks in all those years? or do we have other players on the list last i checked we have a fair amount of young talent on the list these days.

I agree with the bolded but i would of drafted more rucks in the Richards/Fanning years, Maxwell and Toovey for the picks are good value.

 

[knightwheelrqr]

Back in the days of Guy Richards/ David Fanning. Josh Fraser was expected to become what Dean Cox became. A no.1 dominant ruckman which is why we never bothered during the 00s to draft ruckman with high picks.


Richards and Fanning both projected as backup ruckman and at the time it was considered we wouldn't need an AA quality 1st ruck because Fraser was expected to develop into that.

 

[soreplums]

So we only had rookie picks in all those years? or do we have other players on the list last i checked we have a fair amount of young talent on the list these days.

I agree with the bolded but i would of drafted more rucks in the Richards/Fanning years, Maxwell and Toovey for the picks are good value.

MM has done pretty well with our rookies over all. Rather than drafting a ruck through the Richards/Fanning years he needed to trade for a solid one to help Josh. No point drafting another young skinny ruckman when you already have 3 on the list.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

So we only had rookie picks in all those years? or do we have other players on the list last i checked we have a fair amount of young talent on the list these days.

I agree with the bolded but i would of drafted more rucks in the Richards/Fanning years, Maxwell and Toovey for the picks are good value.

The shortcomings of our drafting lies with the selections made at the higher order, and not the lower.

That's what I'm trying to point out. Brown, Toovey and Maxwell would still be on our list regardless, or at the very least would've been drafted and held on to for two or three seasons.

 

[Pie eyed]

I think it is far too early to be having the bulk of these discussions.
The older players on the brink of being over-taken and the young turks looking to break into the 22 will all get their chance to put their individual cases in the practice matches and NAB Cup.

All talk of "X" must make way for "Y" is moot if "X" show great form and "Y" does not. Speculation on who's got what trade value are uber premature given a game has not been played.
Ball, Jolly, Thomas and co are all yet to pull on a Pies jumper in anger and we have yet to win a game in 2010.

I'll reserve my judgement on who should do what until after a ball has been bounce at the very earliest.

 

[loki04]

The shortcomings of our drafting lies with the selections made at the higher order, and not the lower.

That's what I'm trying to point out. Brown, Toovey and Maxwell would still be on our list regardless, or at the very least would've been drafted and held on to for two or three seasons.

My argument about drafting was to do with ruckman not maxell and toovey rookies, we didn't use even mid range picks to pick up a ruck for years till cam wood trade.

 

[soreplums]

My argument about drafting was to do with ruckman not maxell and toovey rookies, we didn't use even mid range picks to pick up a ruck for years till cam wood trade.

I agree that we should have gone after a mature ruckman to help josh out. The problem was we traded for Steve Mckee as that ruckman (huge mistake IMO as we gave up way too much for him). But once he left there should have been someone else