Review Josh Fraser...

[YouIdiot]

Some people make comments forgetting that a human being is the subject of them.

Come on now... there will be children in school yards all across the country today that cop worse than what is directed at Fraser on here.

but I cant stomach pies fans tearing shreds off a pies player and telling em to feck off etc.

Why? They're just subjective opinions on an emotional game. Most of us are Collingwood fans, not individual Collingwood player fans. If there is a player we don't feel is the best fit for Collingwood success, we will say so. I can't stomach fans that can't and won't say a bad word about an individual associated with the club. Their opinions on any matters have little merit because they can only go in one direction...

The players know it too, ask Swan or Maxwell.

According to the players, a fit and firing Josh is an important member of the pies best 22.....im happy to bow to their judgement.

Honestly, if they felt otherwise, would you expect them to say anything other than the above?

And the 'fit and firing' qualification goes without saying, anyways. The point is he isn't firing, so isn't getting a regular game.

What master stroke next, if Jack Anthony is kicking ten goals a week he is in the pies best 22?

 

[ksardog]

lets not get to carried away with frasers performance against box hill. that is hawthorns reserve side and their league team has no ruckman and no key defenders so their reserves would be even more depleted. one ok game in the reserves is no where near enough for consideration for the 1sts. as far as i am concerned he is finished at collingwood

 

[doppleganger]

Why? They're just subjective opinions on an emotional game.

Yelling out in frustration whilst at the game, fair enough.

Surely after the game people can be objective to realise that things like f(%k off Fraser, never want to see the bloke in the jumper again simply offer nothing.

Most of us are Collingwood fans, not individual Collingwood player fans. If there is a player we don't feel is the best fit for Collingwood success, we will say so.

ATM Fraser aint part of the 22, the coaching staff can see that. Do you see MM or Buckley coming out and telling Fraser to pack his bags and clear off??

They realise it is a long season, and he can still offer plenty if he finds form.

I can't stomach fans that can't and won't say a bad word about an individual associated with the club. Their opinions on any matters have little merit because they can only go in one direction...

Many have admitted Fraser is playing poorly this year, myself included. I wanted and thought he would be dropped for the Sydney game.

Now it is up to him to show good form and force L.Brown out of the team, L.Brown another bloke who many posters never want in a pies jumper again!

Honestly, if they felt otherwise, would you expect them to say anything other than the above?

They wouldn't say anything....have they come out talking up Jack? Wood? Lockyer etc.

Perhaps they dont think those blokes are automatic 22 when fit, but they do with Fraser.

And the 'fit and firing' qualification goes without saying, anyways. The point is he isn't firing, so isn't getting a regular game.

The point is people posting things like feck off Fraser, or never want to see him in a pies jumper again are pathetic.

If Fraser finds form he is a valuable member of the team, but plenty of small sighted individuals would prefer we delist him on the spot! Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Fraser dropped, goes back to VFL and is close to BOG. Couldn't ask for anymore from a senior bloke struggling for form....shows his good leadership qualities and the reason why he is respected internally if not externally.

 

[The Average Tourist]

Just to cheer all the Josh haters

Jolly will be rested before the finals (everyone will be rested during the year). Maybe not this week or the week after and Josh will play 1st ruck.

If I was a betting man I would reckon round 20 against Essendon Jolly will be rested and round 21 v Adelaide Jolly will play 2nd ruck so about 40 minutes of round 21. Then return v Hawthorn

We might even have Fraser & Wood v Essendon!

Enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[YouIdiot]

Surely after the game people can be objective to realise that things like f(%k off Fraser, never want to see the bloke in the jumper again simply offer nothing.

I think you are mistaking the importance and significance of comments made on an internet forum by supporters. How many posts actually 'offer something'?

Confusing internet forum posts with comments and opinions that make a difference Exhibit A:

ATM Fraser aint part of the 22, the coaching staff can see that. Do you see MM or Buckley coming out and telling Fraser to pack his bags and clear off??

 

[leons magic]

If you want one player who should be in the VFL for the rest of this year and off to another club next year it is Leon Davis, Josh has shown alot more than Leon ever has and yet he often escapes the critics because his flashy games every 2 months have GOTY contenders, although Josh has atleast played some good finals

The club ****ed him up, he is a great bloke and does care despite what everyone thinks, probably just gets pissed off when they manage him so badly

Being a great bloke shouldn't get you a game mate, i never said he didn't care, and i acknowledged that Fraser had been badly managed in my other post which has contributed to his downfall. This is a tough game, sometimes you have to make harsh decisions and my opinion is that he no longer has anything more to offer the club at senior level.

RE: Leon Davis, you are probably right in the fact that he does tend to kick the odd freakish goal or play a one off good game, and with Dick coming through that he should not be guarenteed a game if he is not performing. Fraser though is in the same boat as Davis and has never had an AA like Leon did last year prior to the finals. You say that Fraser has shown alot more Davis, which is something i disagree with strongly. He was a number one pick who has greatly underachieved. Regardless of my posting name i can clearly see that Leon struggles at times and shouldnt be guarenteed a game if we have a suitable replacement. Its just a pitty you cant seem to knock Fraser performance or his place in the side because he is a "good bloke". And also you tell me which position is harder to be consistantly good in, a forward pocket or as a ruckman. Not many small forwards do damage every week but there is alot of ruckman who do, and Fraser never has been or never will be one of those.

 

[Thommo 42]

How has he greatly underachieved?

He's played 199 AFL Games and is one of the few blokes on our list who has repeatedly lifted his output in finals.

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

How has he greatly underachieved?

He's played 199 AFL Games and is one of the few blokes on our list who has repeatedly lifted his output in finals.

10 year career and I think his resume just reads: 2 grand finals appearances.

 

[doppleganger]

10 year career and I think his resume just reads: 2 grand finals appearances.

What about Presti? Pick 10, never won a BnF, did he play state footy, never got AA honours.....and his resume would read just 2 GF appearances.

What about Rocca? Pick 2, never won a BnF, never won AA honours....his resume would read just 1 GF appearance.

Having a 10 year career and playing 200 games shows you have some quality.

 

[rose jam]

10 year career and I think his resume just reads: 2 grand finals appearances.

should also read greatest finals player in the clubs history

 

[bucksisbest]

He was good yesterday , as he should have been against not much.
He'll get a few other games , because Leigh Brown will **** up eventually and Cam Wood is just wandering around. But yesterday didn't leave me believing he will come back and star , or be much better than he has been consistently.

I really liked Josh Thomas' game. I was surprised he only had 22 touches , seemed to dominate the packs.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Until the current setup isn't working, Josh can play well in the VFL all he wants. I have no interest in making changes based on reputation... we need to get the same group of guys playing together for a while. If Josh isn't currently in that group, he only has himself to blame.

If Josh puts a bunch of 20+ possession, 20+ hitout, multiple goal performances together and Leroy plays a few bad ones in a row, we can reassess.

 

[Swooop]

Until the current setup isn't working, Josh can play well in the VFL all he wants. I have no interest in making changes based on reputation... we need to get the same group of guys playing together for a while. If Josh isn't currently in that group, he only has himself to blame.

If Josh puts a bunch of 20+ possession, 20+ hitout, multiple goal performances together and Leroy plays a few bad ones in a row, we can reassess.

....and still leave him in the seconds

 

[leons magic]

How has he greatly underachieved?

He's played 199 AFL Games and is one of the few blokes on our list who has repeatedly lifted his output in finals.

Leigh Brown has played over 200 games, Shane O'bree nearly 250, what is your point. This does not make him a great player. I have never said Josh Fraser was a hack or a mediocre footballer he clearly had some talent, and played good football at times. As you mentioned though i am saying that he has underchieved over his career and you ask why. The reason is that he may well end up arguably one of the worst number one picks of the modern era. Nick Reiwoldt was the number one pick the following year, he has multiple B&Fs, AA, AFL MVP's etc, then the next draft you have Hodge B&F winner, norm smith medal, AA etc, Cooney has a Brownlow and AA, Goddard and AA and many more accolades to come, Deledio rising star and B&F's. The number one picks after that, well its too early in there careers to say what accolades they will win however im sure the likes of Murphy, Gibbs, Kreuzer, Watts etc will barring injury most likely have a much better individual honor roll than Josh Fraser.

Josh Fraser has played 199 games, has no B&F's, no AA and no individual honour to speak of apart from the meaningless one off state game where he admittedly played well. He has played some good finals in his earlier years and some average ones in the latter part of his career, he has had one excellent year in 2003, the rest either patchy (good and bad) or mediocre. He is not the best player in his draft, which i know is not always the case in drafting, but you could argue the case that there are atleast 10 players in the 1999 draft who have had careers better than Josh Frasers.

If you want to look through rose coloured glasses and tell me based on the facts that i have brought to the table that Josh Fraser has not greatly underachieved throughout his career as a highly touted number one pick, then clearly you accept mediocrity. I personally like Josh Fraser, and had alot of time for him and his ability early on his career, but to question whether he has underachieved especially compared to the number one picks proceeding him is a farce!

 

[soreplums]

He has been very solid and important to us, without achieving many individual honours. The club didn't manage him properly which may have been a reason for this. He was very, very good early and many people were very excited by this. He did not kick on as well as we all hoped. But he did play in some shit collingwood teams with not much ruck support. Keep in mind that every club was going to draft him with their number one pick in '99. He was seen as the best player in the draft at that time. I'm still shitty that we gave up pick 4 in that draft.

 

[Thommo 42]

Yep and Leigh Brown and Shane O'Bree were both first round picks as well - what is your point?

If you draft a player, in any position in the draft, and they turn into a 200 gamer - you would be happy.

 

[shawthing09]

I don't see the logic in either side. Wanting to rush Fraser back in, or alternatively never play him again.

He has been consistantly below par as a second ruckmen, he has been below par as a play over the last three years. Whether it's injury, new role, old body, poor form either way he has not been good enough. I am glad we are in a position now where we can hopefully leave him in the VFL for an extended period.

He may have played well but he needed too and needs to continue too. As TRS has said he should no be rushed in due to reputation. Last week was the best our ruck division has looked all year. Jolly looked better with more TOG and more time in the ruck. Brown was handy enough as a chop out and bits part player and offered more then either of Wood and Fraser have over the course of the year. The Jolly / Brown partnership has looked like it would be a good idea for a couple of weeks and has worked straight away. I think it has earned some time and if it keeps working it should not be changed just to force Fraser into the side.

That said there is no use ruling Fraser out, he is a handy enough player and for depth reasons you want as many people pushing and ready as possible. Fraser in good form is a good thing for us and if he can force his way into the side all good and well but I think it will take an extended period of playing at top class level.

I am personally hoping this combo works well enough that Fraser is not good enough to push his way in, or that Wood steps up and keeps the big Fras out but until that happens the Fras is a chance and him playing well in the VFL is a good sign.

 

[doppleganger]

ShawThing sums it up perfectly.

Was interesting on Footy Classified that they put up Fraser v Cox career stats......and Fraser was ahead in everything bar HOs. Yet Cox is lauded as a great and Fraser is an underachiever?

Regarding rattling off who the number 1 picks were prior to Josh. You can make your own mind up as to when things turned professional. Wonder what people would say if Kosi had gone pick 1 in 2000, and Ball had gone pick 1 in 2001.

95 - C.Waterhouse
96 - M.Gardiner
97 - T.Johnstone
98 - D.Headland
99 - J.Fraser

Josh holds his own, will have had a good career......and there is plenty more fight in him too.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

. As you mentioned though i am saying that he has underchieved over his career and you ask why.

I'm going to disagree here. You comparing him to the draft class of 2001 is unfair. Who, besides Pavlich, was taken in the 2000 draft class that we could have reasonably expected at the time to end up a better player. As it stands, you consider both pick 1 and pick 6 from that draft to be sub the standard you've set, which leads me to think that you have unrealistic expectations of what these guys should have achieved.

Josh has been a very serviceable player and has proven that in finals he can perform. Realistically, we would never have selected Pavlich at number 1 because at the time we had a playing list consisting of Rocca(x2) and pick 8 from the previous year who was expected to become a sensational full forward in Tarrant. The need for another tall forward option wasn't there at the time. Compare that to a deficient ruckline which had Steve Mckee. In hindsight, it wasn't the best selection we could've made, and that's disappointing, but Fraser single-handedly carried our ruck for the better part of a decade. He's played his role and over the course of his career I'm not disappointed with what he has provided as a return for our faith. I'm disappointed he hasn't achieved more, granted, but he hasn't been a disappointment considering how much he's put into the club.

I'd rate the 1999 draft one of the weakest in history and would gladly have swapped selection one in that draft for selection twenty one in the 2001 draft.

 

[Old Spice]

ShawThing sums it up perfectly.

Was interesting on Footy Classified that they put up Fraser v Cox career stats......and Fraser was ahead in everything bar HOs. Yet Cox is lauded as a great and Fraser is an underachiever?

You're not comparing Fraser and Cox?

Both were mobile for sure, but an extra ten hit-outs a game from Cox puts him in another league entirely.

 

[doppleganger]

You're not comparing Fraser and Cox?

Im not.....Footy Classified thought a comparison was in order.

Funny that FC compare Josh to Cox, yet most pies supporters cant even acknowledge that Josh is a good player.

Both were mobile for sure, but an extra ten hit-outs a game from Cox puts him in another league entirely.

Of course...Cox is prob the best ruck of the 2000s.

 

[Old Spice]

Im not.....Footy Classified thought a comparison was in order.

Funny that FC compare Josh to Cox, yet most pies supporters cant even acknowledge that Josh is a good player.

Of course...Cox is prob the best ruck of the 2000s.

Didn't see it, but I suspect they were talking about mobility. They are both comparable in terms of being mobile ruckmen, but Cox happens also to be a mobile ruckman plus a good tap ruckman.

As you say, best ruck of the naughties by a mile.

 

[doppleganger]

Didn't see it, but I suspect they were talking about mobility. They are both comparable in terms of being mobile ruckmen, but Cox happens also to be a mobile ruckman plus a good tap ruckman.

As you say, best ruck of the naughties by a mile.

Yep, Fraser has been the best follower of the 2000s, his numbers are better than Cox. A bloke that gives a contest in the ruck and then adds another dimension to our midfield.....which was crucial a few years ago when we really struggled in the middle.

Now our midfield is strong, we dont especially need an extra runner through there, we need a bloke to make an impact for 10min a quarter....Fraser aint that bloke at the moment, neither is Wood.

Fraser, IMO, has more chance of becoming a bloke who can have an immediate impact for us in the finals....if he cant then our best bet is L.Brown as relief to Jolly.

What frustrates me is people cant seem to acknowledge that Josh has had a good career in the BnW, sure he aint a superstar that we hoped he may become, but he has been an important member of the team for a decade. And still could play a vitally important role in any future success

Wood will hopefully come good, but right now he aint that good, and certainly doesn't deserve to be gifted games when we are a game off top spot and challenging for the flag. Also when there are other KP players who play well at VFL level whilst Wood seems to dish up more of the same effortless games even at VFL level.

 

[DaVe86]

Josh always plays well against Cox. SO that alone might keep him in contention this week. He is no where near as good as Cox, but he is a good matchup because for a change, Cox actually has to defend a ruckman as opposed to have his opponent follow him.


However, I think Josh should not even be in consideration. He needs more than 1 good game at VFL level. He needs a month of good form, and he needs to prove to selectors that his knee is fit enough for AFL.

I am scared sending Leigh Brown up against Cox and Naitanui, but he'll be awkward for them because he'll be physical.

My fingers are crossed Josh gets himself right, because I think he can have a good finals series. He made his name earlier in his career as a finals player...but since has never been fit.

THis year, I think we go easy on Josh, let him get himself right for finals...then all he has to do is put 3 decent weeks together...push is body to its absolute limit because theres 4 months off after that.

For now, Leigh Brown gets the nod.

 

[leons magic]

Josh has been a very serviceable player and has proven that in finals he can perform. Realistically, we would never have selected Pavlich at number 1 because at the time we had a playing list consisting of Rocca(x2) and pick 8 from the previous year who was expected to become a sensational full forward in Tarrant.

I'd rate the 1999 draft one of the weakest in history and would gladly have swapped selection one in that draft for selection twenty one in the 2001 draft.

Yes we selected Fraser as our number one pick, im not saying we should have taken Pavlich or any other better players in that draft at the time. Collingwood obviously selected Josh Fraser at pick one for the reason being that they thought he was the best player in that draft and most suitable to our needs at the time. Hence at this point in his career what i am saying is that he has not lived up to that pick and has clearly underachieved considering his draft ranking and potential. As you clearly state he has been a "serviceable player", which is not something that is applicable to the number one picks from every draft following Frasers that are currently rateable e.g. 2000-2005

This second point i have quoted has nothing to do with it, and only further strengthens my point, as there are up to 10 players from that 99' draft that have had an on par or better careers than Fraser's. I am not knocking Fraser as a player, as you say he has had a serviceable career and will play over 200 games, the fact of the matter is, like it or not he was rated by us and most others at the time as a number one pick, he had enormous potential and showed good signs early on his career, and has not lived up to his billing and therefore has underachieved and that is taking injury and workload into account. At the end of the day many high draft picks fail to live up to expectactions, someone mentioned Justin Koschitzke and he like Fraser has underachieved on his potential and rating, sometimes players do not reach the heights of what their potential and talent suggests and unfortunately IMO Josh Fraser falls into this category.