Kangaroos Football Staff are all Idiots & Big Footy Posters know better

[kymhodgemansmo]

Originally posted by Back Seat Of A Taxi
KHM you are a whanker.

What a crazy world we would live in if we could not question authority. Go back to your fantasy world and say hi to the disciples of Hitler, Hussain & bin Laden. They never questioned their leader.

BTW your fave players don't have to be the best players.

This is the type of personal insult that continuously denigrades the opinion of you and your left wing type buddies my friend.

It is the personal abuse like he is a farkin (which is so cheap anyway) idiot etc etc, that offends me.

It is even worse when we talk about some 21 year old, who was barely in the best in the VFL anyway, as if he is some demi-god.

I have watched posters from here discuss Trent Croad who at 21 has played 80 games, can mark, has been in the top three in a B&F at Senior Level (has Smith even done this at VFL level), yet stil suggest he is overrated.

Look in our own backyard.

We will leave the opinions like your first, to others to decide, because I have no time for simpletons like you, although the challenge of response I am more than comfortable with.

 

[kymhodgemansmo]

For you King Corey,

Debate is the basis for all improvement, so I am not suggesting we do not have a right to question the football department's thinking.

But it is the manner in which is it done, and I am not implying your are on of these, that annoys me.

Where is Pagan taking us, time for him to move on, he is a farkin idiot ra ra ra.

Informed opinions, with reasonable arguments both for and against, are extremely palatable, and there are a number here who are enjoyable to read.

Specifically though in response, we can hardly expect our list to have improved from our premiership era, when we only have to look as far as Windy Hill to see the difficulty in maintaining a competition leading list.

We won flags with a number of players who may not have been brilliant footballers, but Pagan had to fill the gaps.

When you are drafting at pick 16, pick 32 etc how can you pick the best players available.

We all agree that good players rarely slip through the net in the draft, so why are we really surprised at the level of our current list.

It is all very well saying let's play the kids, but if they aren't up to it, what is the point - let them become mediocre players and keep the list below par or strive to fulfil deficiencies in the short term until such time as capable players are ready to fill the boots of veterans.

I believe Shannon Watt is a prime example of this.

He looks a player now, a capable, ready made replacement for any of our key defenders.

Last year, he did not.

He was a priority pick, so obviously a player with plenty of ability, and he was nurtured, and I believe he will be the conrnerstone of our defence in years to come.

But we recruited McCartney to provide a short term fix, and it has worked, giving Watt time to develop as a footbaler and emerge as a candidate.

Playing kids week in week out doesn't work, unless they are all guns, and even then it is tough.

Look at Freo, Richmond through the early 90's, North through the mid - 80's - it is not always about kids.

Every premiership side has had a balance - rejects, traded players, players anointed to superstar status from a young age and those that emerge - no club has nurtured all of its players to win a flag.

It is easy to say play the kids, but there isn't much point if they aren't any good, or they simply aren't ready.

Give me the 80-90 game under achiever over a fragile kid any day, just in case they are ready now.

 

[Rooboy 96]

Originally posted by Aussie_Roo
I understand that we have to take a step backwards to go forward again. I agree that we need the blend of both youth and experience. However I get extremely frustrated when a couple of the young guys get picked, and you look forward to see them play - and they spend 3/4s of the game sitting on the bench.

I understand and get just as frustrated as you... yet I believe a bloke that has coached so many young kids as Denis has... knows what he is doing... I do like the Blight theory (tell them they have 10 senior games, to prove they are footballers)... but this is how Denis works... and it doesn't make him wrong either....

 

[Briedis]

I have full confidence in Denis' ability to bring the club back up to the top. Although patience will be the key for us supporters. I would be happy to give up a couple of years of sucess if it means that we rebuild and have a top side again for eight years.

Even the great Hawthorn sides of the 70s and 80s had a couple of down years at the beginning of the 80s.

The only worry I have is the clubs survival during this period. I we can make the eight during this rebuilding phase, then that would be a good effort IMO.

And on the topic of supporters being able to give their opinions on whether the football department are doing a good job....most of us here may our memberships every year and support the club and are passionate about the Roos - so to me it would seem obvious that we would have opinions about the clubs and the direction of the club. I don't understand why it is a problem for some people if comments are made that people think that th efooty dept at North has made a mistake....

 

[Rooboy 96]

Originally posted by Briedis
I don't understand why it is a problem for some people if comments are made that people think that th efooty dept at North has made a mistake....

It is not a problem... to query decisions made... but people like Darkrider/CIK who only ever criticise... make other defensive for the club... It is tough enough fighting those from the darkside... surely we should not have to defend our club... to our fellow members...

 

[Briedis]

Originally posted by Rooboy 96


It is not a problem... to query decisions made... but people like Darkrider/CIK who only ever criticise... make other defensive for the club... It is tough enough fighting those from the darkside... surely we should not have to defend our club... to our fellow members...

It always makes me wonder why people who are always critical of the club actually support the club.

No offense intended to CIK or DarkRider, but I like to enjoy supporting the club. I'm not saying you guys aren't true supporters etc, but if the club frustrates you so much then maybe you should just chill out a little bit. The reality is that none of us (to my knowlegde anyway) are involved with the club at board level, so we can't change anything - so it really just everyones opinions.

 

[Daphne]

Originally posted by Briedis


It always makes me wonder why people who are always critical of the club actually support the club.


I would like to have a go at answering that. I have found that some people who I know wheather it be at schools, clubs of all varieties like to be critical of what others are doing or how they are doing it. If you ask them for there help etc then they are very hesitant to do it. Mostly they are, or would like to be in charge of something in there lives. They like to dictate to others and dont like being dictated to. They have their opinions and dont take notice of others as they think theirs is the right one. You know the type, no use arguing with them because you know that they are not going to change their minds because they wont admit that they may be wrong. They keep supporting their club as we all do, but I dont think that they get anywhere the enjoyment of those who take their club for better or worse knowing that sometime soon it will turn around.

 

[kymhodgemansmo]

This is not meant to be a feelgood post because things will NOT eventually just turn around.

Changes need to be made and I believe there has been a definitive change in direction on field.

Argument is good and I have to say I find CIK and Dark Rider to have some of the more objective opinions on the board.

If you wish to support your club and idolise the team no matter how it performs, then who are we to judge.

But I do like to remain objective, as do others, without a preoccupation with blind defence of players without the necessary ingeredients to make it.

As stated, I object to opinons based on the fact that I met him at the SYd Barker night and he is a good bloke so therefore he can play crap that goes on in this board.

Realism is what I like to see, but to be inherently critical without any objective viewpoint for the other side of the argument is what annoys me.

Oh and idiotic, simplistic posters.

So this is not a post for people to say .. "CIK is a bastard because he is always negative, or Dark Rider is not a real supporter..."

What a load of crap.

Reasoned debate is the basis of objective opinion ... perhaps we should all take a look at both sides of the argument and keep emotion out of the argument

 

[Briedis]

Originally posted by Daphne

I would like to have a go at answering that. I have found that some people who I know wheather it be at schools, clubs of all varieties like to be critical of what others are doing or how they are doing it. If you ask them for there help etc then they are very hesitant to do it. Mostly they are, or would like to be in charge of something in there lives. They like to dictate to others and dont like being dictated to. They have their opinions and dont take notice of others as they think theirs is the right one. You know the type, no use arguing with them because you know that they are not going to change their minds because they wont admit that they may be wrong. They keep supporting their club as we all do, but I dont think that they get anywhere the enjoyment of those who take their club for better or worse knowing that sometime soon it will turn around.

Agreed.

 

[Briedis]

Originally posted by kymhodgemansmo
So this is not a post for people to say .. "CIK is a bastard because he is always negative, or Dark Rider is not a real supporter..."

What a load of crap.

I was trying to not say that...sorry if it came across as such. I just don't understand how people who are always on the negative with their club are happy supporters.

Football to me is fun.

It's hard for us to see the reasons for some choices made by the club. And no-one agrees with every choice made by the club. But most try to see the benefits of the choices made by the club and support in whatever way they can.

 

[SoggyBoy]

The answer is so simple, really.

We all love our club and we all want our club to succeed and survive.

We all deal with failure and disappointment differently. Some like to concetrate on the positives, others like to air the negatives to get their disappointment off their chest.

We all deal with things differently, in all things in life. Doesn't necessarily mean we enjoy/appreciate things more or less than others.

 

[DarkRider]

It seems I have become part of the topic of conversation here, so allow me to tell you why I come across as negative.
I am a very demanding person and a critical one. This has stood me in good stead in my working life, because I will not accept second best. After many years, this then creeps into your makeup, and I find myself being equally as critical of the managers of our club, and some of the players. (Football is a business, after all.)

I enjoy the success of our club, as we all do, but I probably take the failures more to heart, so the observation that I may not enjoy supporting North as much as some of you is correct, I guess. Be that as it may, I understand why some people, like Michele, find it hard to be critical, and always try to find a positive.

What I cannot accept is the concept that only those who think positive are really supporting the club, or those who criticise are automatically wrong. People who think that way, or try to reduce debate to personal attacks are simply relegated to my 'ignore' list nowadays.


P.S. On the subject of drafting/trading, I think we have got it wrong more often than we have got it right, but most clubs are probably the same.

 

[Michele]

My father started taking me to the football at Arden Street many years ago. Now my son and I go to the footy together.

I have been a member of North in the very lean times and in the very good times. and the memories are all very special to me and that is perhaps one of the reasons why I don't criticise North.
My special dad was very big on loyalty.

I understand supporters raising legitimate questions about certain aspects of either the admin, football dept or marketing dept.
What I don't understand is the constant carping. And that was plainly evident in the first few rds.

Anyone would think the sky had fallen in - on the official forum supporters were calling for blood and very extremely savage.
Does anyone think the players couldn't be bothered whether they won or not!!

We are supporters! And I like to think we are the best supporters.


Michele

 

[Daphne]

I agree with you Michelle. Football is a sport to those of us who enjoy it, the business side of it should be left up to those who are paid to look after that side of it. The football world I come from is all about the game. Sure there are times when you think this should happen or that should have happened but when it is all said and done you really dont have a real input, sure you can come in here and belly ache about it, but you know who you are bellyaching too and expect others to have an opinion. When someone is having a go at the club all the time and then just throws in a few nice things just to humour others then expect them to react and not want to be treated like fools . There is only one thing in this world worse than a person who thinks they are perfect, and that is a perfect person. I think the Trent Croad incident during the trade was probably a good example for those supporters that think their opinions matters. When it is all said and done it is up to the club and the ones that really know, evidently there was much more going on there and the same can be said for any other club and their players. I was probably suprised that Stuart Cochrane was voted the best clubman this year and I think he was too, but these are the type of people that go to making all things work at a club or business and i bet there was not one person in this forlum who would have known that he had mad such a contribution this year.

 

[SoggyBoy]

About loyalty, huh Michele?

Tell that to Peter Bell and Corey McKernan, both of who you refused to negatively assess (not so relevant in Bell's case) based on your loyatly to the Blue and White.

Where are they now, and why are they there?

Were either of them dumped by the Roos?

I admire loyal supporters for their passion, but cannot help but pity them for their blindness.

Footy is NOT about loyalty anymore. Not for the players and clubs, anyway. It's about business and survival.

If you want examples, you don't have to look far:

Krakueor Bros - left North chasing the $$$
Derek Kickett - as above
Mick Martyn - gonna be delisted for financial reason only
Wayne Scwhass - put a personal conflict with the coach ahead of the club
Glen Freeborn - decided to chase more gametime rather than bide his time in a quality team.
Peter Bell - chased the dollars and probably the worst case for me, considering who he returned to after what they initially did to him
Corey McKernan - decided to go "better himself" despite being asked to stay by the club that's paid him $400K a year to underperform for3 years.
Sav Rocca - uncerimoniously dumped by C'wood after years of good service
Leigh Colbert - was given the future by Geelong, but put personal ambition ahead of the club


.....I could go on for a while, but until players start staying at clubs (and clubs keeping players) due to historical factors rather than finanical or personal ambition factors, loyalty is a wasted energy.

Of course, these are my thoughts only, but remembering such, I will continued to be critical of players who happily take a salary from the club, and not earn it on the park (eg McKernan), because as far as I'm concerned, no individual has the right to hold my club back just because he might be a good bloke, or buy a Presidents Club membership, or has been around for 10 years etc etc.

As a general rule, the only loyal people left in football, are the fans.

 

[Michele]

Originally posted by SoggyBoy
About loyalty, huh Michele?.......
.............................................
As a general rule, the only loyal people left in football, are the fans.

Well Hello Soggyboy!! Or should that also read LapNoodle,

What ARE you saying re Corey??? His name was mentioned as 'tradebait' PRE the trading period.
He felt that after giving all that he could to North as a player AND training as hard as any player - the club confirm this - he felt his only option was to leave North.

He didn't just "get up and walk out!

He told North well in advance, so that North could get the best possible trade - a trait of mutual understanding and respect.

Re Corey: What case are you arging;
- that he should have stayed at North for less money and the loyalty factor and but in your eyes wasn't worth the money and you still would have complained.

- that he left North AFTER giving due consideration as to what was best for himself AND the team and yet you state he was only trying to "better himself." Your 'money' is not being used for a player who you think is inworthy and yet you have still bagged him for not being loyal!!

You have no comprehension at all of what a GOOD footy club consists. Good players and good clubmen make the club - FROM THE INSIDE, ie boost morale to the MAIN people involved - THE PLAYERS - THE TEAM.

Peter Bell's case, IN NO WAY, can be compared with Corey.
Bell was dumped by Freo, given a life by North and subsequently a Premeirship and THEN decided to return home for family reasons.
(Just so happened to coincide with the end of his study as a lawyer. )

Schwassy's leaving was a disappointed for most North supporters, but AGAIN, he also allowed North to get a good deal for him. Shannon Grant is a great player.

As any North supporter 'worth their salt' would hope Micky IS re-selected!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone knows footy is a business and for a club to survive, it needs success.
After this year's trading, many players will feel nervous at trading time, for no other reason but the SALARY cap. And it is also says more about the club as to STYLE of how a player is informed he may be 'tradebait'.

North kept Corey informed and visa versa!!! North IS a QUALITY club.
Schwab was on radio the other day quote "I should have told him (Croad) from the beginning"????? He has learnt form his mistake as said he would 'go that way again'.
Why didn't he tell Croad of other clubs' possible interest???

Sav Rocca was dumped and Colby left Geelong. A newly appointed captain does not just leave - "personal ambition" what twaddle are you talking. You left Essendon out of this equation. Why?

Do you blindly believe club administators etc make the decision to go to a club as they would any other 'business'?
Perhaps it is the salary package that takes their interest?

DO NOT PITY ME FOR MY PASSION FOR NORTH - AND I AM PASSIONATE ABOUT NORTH - BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME THINGS MONEY CAN'T BUY.

Michele

 

[SoggyBoy]

Michele,

Surprisingly, I don't disagree with most of what you've said.

The main point I was trying to highlight is that footy, for the players and clubs, is no longer about loyalty.

It is about perosnal betterment and finance.

I never mentioned Essendon for one reaosn on ly, I wanted to keep the examples North related.

Essendon this trade period is a classic example to illustrate my point.

Won a flag last year, finished top the last three H&A's.

Now Essendon had a choice. Be loyal to the players that have got them where they are and have probably accepted less money than they could get on the open market to do so, or look to the future and continue to improve the player list.

As a consequence of the latter, players that two years ago were untouchables (and still are in the eyes of many loyal supporters) are put up as trade bait.

Hardly a stablising situation.

Gaspar is another example. Why did he have to maximise his worth, at the expence of his team mates? Where was his loyalty to those who take the feild with him?

King and Harvey both tested their worth on the open market last season to maximise their contracts with North. Is this loyalty to the club, or personal betterment?

McKernan was told by Pagan he was stilla required player at North, but chose to go elsewhere. Are we sure it had nothing to do with the contract North offered him? Are we sure it was to simply try and reignite his career?

Two scenarios continue to become clearer and clearer.

Players are no longer putting the club ahead of themselves when talking contracts (for the most), and clubs are no longer considering player loyalty when looking at improving playing lists.

We can romanticise all we want about club and player loyalty, but the truth these days is that we supporters are the only true loyalists left in footy.

Some sceptics might even suggest the club's loyalty to it's supporters is not what it used to be (playing games out of Melb and not including them on standard memberships, for eg)

My point, I suppose, is that too often people are criticised for criticising players & club administration etc, and their loyalty to the club is often questioned in the process.

But if you want to look at where the 'loyalty rot' initiated, look no further than the players and clubs.

I'll leave you with one more thought on the matter. Mick Martyn.

After his many years of fantastic service to the football club, does he 'deserve' to be delkisted for financial reasons only, and risk not being on North's list next year?

I think not, but it's a cold and calculating business nowadays.

PS: Who's this LapNoodle you're talking about?

 

[Michele]

Originally posted by SoggyBoy
Michele,
..........................
McKernan was told by Pagan he was stilla required player at North, but chose to go elsewhere. Are we sure it had nothing to do with the contract North offered him? Are we sure it was to simply try and reignite his career?

Two scenarios continue to become clearer and clearer.

Players are no longer putting the club ahead of themselves when talking contracts (for the most), and clubs are no longer considering player loyalty when looking at improving playing lists.

We can romanticise all we want about club and player loyalty, but the truth these days is that we supporters are the only true loyalists left in footy.

Some sceptics might even suggest the club's loyalty to it's supporters is not what it used to be (playing games out of Melb and not including them on standard memberships, for eg)

My point, I suppose, is that too often people are criticised for criticising players & club administration etc, and their loyalty to the club is often questioned in the process.

But if you want to look at where the 'loyalty rot' initiated, look no further than the players and clubs.

I'll leave you with one more thought on the matter. Mick Martyn.

After his many years of fantastic service to the football club, does he 'deserve' to be delkisted for financial reasons only, and risk not being on North's list next year?

I think not, but it's a cold and calculating business nowadays.

PS: Who's this LapNoodle you're talking about?

SoggyBoy aka LapNoodle,

I don't necessarily disagree with your comments re players and clubs.
Some players - some clubs!!
Where I do disagree with your comments is your sweeping generalisation that 'clubs and players have no loyalty' to each other.

The 'draft' and trading players has been around for along time. and as self-evident. players on the fringe or not measuring-up (in the eyes of the match committee) have been delisted.
Others, such as the Schwass (I need to get away from Melbourne, because it is too footy oriented ) and Shannon ( I want to return to my home base, Melbourne) whilst initially causing a headache for clubs and supporters alike, in the long run, turn out best for both player and club.

The manner in which such transactions are conducted, speaks volumes of both the player and club - MUTUAL RESPECT or MEAT MARKET.

Schwass and Corey are 2 examples of the former.
Croad was unfortunately the latter - (club transaction) and Gaspar - (player transaction)
To accuse Corey of trying to extract more money from North when he took a pay cut last year and also took out vice-pesidents thing is just plainly stupid.
Gaspar's situation, according to newspaper reports, is not novel. He did the same at Sydney!!!

Your argument is mixed (as usual ). Are you accusing - in your example - Essendon - the club of disloyaly or its players or both? The footy world was asking the same question, "How do they fit all the "stars"???? in the salary cap?"
Simple answer - place enough leverage on the AFL to increase salary cap by ???%, and when it didn't eventuate - tough decisions had to be made.

But Essendon are arrogant; thought the increases would go ahead - and to hell if other samller clubs died. So be it.!

As to your your answer on Micky.
If Mick was say 30 or leave it at 33 and he had played this year INJURY FREE, do you believe North's approach would still be the same??

And why did you leave out player managers in this equation?
To what extent, do the managers have a responsibilty, both to their players and the AFL in genaral?
If a club goes out of exsistence - there are less players to manage.

Michele

 

[SoggyBoy]

Michele,

Did you do ballet when you were young? Cos you seem to dance around the issues quite well

I repeat:

"My point, I suppose, is that too often people are criticised for criticising players & club administration etc, and their loyalty to the club is often questioned in the process.

But if you want to look at where the 'loyalty rot' initiated, look no further than the players and clubs. "

Player Managers are of course largely at fault, but let's not forget they represent the player. No Player Manager makes a decision in contrast to his client's wishes.

Lastly, I never accused McKernan of "trying to extract more money from North". He's been well overpaid for the last 3 years.

What I suggested was, that maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't just blindly accept the reasons for his departure as wanting to improve his footy.

It was well documented that he was going to get a significantly smaller contract this time around at North, and maybe he wasn't happy with that and decided to see what he could get elsewhere.

Again, I say maybe.

How "loyal" is it to walk out on the club that made you what you are, paid you what they did and told you that you were still a required player, I ask?

Or can we just dismiss the issue of loyalty if we like the player, or the player has previously accepted less money, or bought a special membership?

 

[Michele]

Originally posted by SoggyBoy
Michele

Or can we just dismiss the issue of loyalty if we like the player, or the player has previously accepted less money, or bought a special membership?

Soggyboy,

There is a such a thing called CONSTUCTIVE criticism which can lead to positive outcomes.
And then there is DESTRUCTIVE criticism which is negative.

One only has to think back to the first few rds and and one could be forgiven for thinking that they had logged onto the St. Kilda website.

The amount of abuse - towards both players and coach was absolutely amazing.
Did either need to be told that something was wrong or missing?

As for Corey: I am sticking by him. He should have won the Norwich Rising Star Award, but lost it for 'hand-tripping'. That rule was altered next year.
He come EQUAL with Voss & Hird in the 1996 Brownlow but was ineligible. (#3 Geelong knocked Corey senseless in a game but was not reported. )
He won a Premiership medal in 1996
In the finals of 1997 (carey had been out for most of the year) Corey was targetted and had his shoulder dislocated and a severe knee injury in the first few minutes.
1998, lost a lost a pre-season training due to both operations and then trying to make up for lost time, suffered stress fractures.
I believe all these injuries together, took a toll on his confidence.

Michele

How is that for dancing!

 

[roowatch]

Hi guys
As a newbie, almost a bit reluctant to step into this minefield but here goes.
I think the loyalty factor for players, coaches, etc. can be explained very simply. They are loyal to whomever employs them at the time.
No better "loyalist" at NM than Rocky. But when the coaching staff felt he had no more to contribute, his "loyalty" shifted to the Hawks. Did he lose his memories or good feelings or friends from NM? Doubt it.
The coaching staff have also to protect themselves, by making decisions that "loyalty" wouldn't permit (a la Croad). However their success is measured by wins first, and player development second. Thus the Roos heavies find themselves in a bind for 2002 - what to do with Micky? I believe most independent observers would judge that his career is over (same as Long at Ess). Will performance suffer by playing him in the team? How would he feel if he struggles and plays heaps for the MKs?

Football decisions are made from within usually for good, sound reasons not always accepted or understood by supporters. We however have the luxury of being able to sit back and make all our judgements and decisions without the same consequences. Fortunately, this means we can be as passionate, illogical, loyal, fanatical, blind as we like and love every minute of it!

I think we do have to adjust our view of what loyalty means to those involved in the business of the game.
We do not have to adjust our view of loyalty one iota.

Go kangas.