Draft Watcher Knightmare 2020 Draft Almanac

[Knightmare]

Just on your team of last decade. Feel that it’s not too far off.

Question though, in hindsight who would have been guesses to be on that list on 2010, who didn’t make it?

This is a great question and something I thought a lot about when constructing my team of the next 10 years to avoid falling into the same traps.

B: Heath Shaw Michael Hurley Grant Birchall
HB: Brett Deledio Harry Taylor Brendon Goddard
CEN: Dale Thomas Scott Pendlebury Tom Scully
HF: Marc Murphy Travis Cloke Bryce Gibbs
F: Jarryd Roughead Lance Franklin Cyril Rioli
FOLL: Nic Naitanui Joel Selwood Adam Cooney
BENCH: Daniel Rich Jack Trengove Matthew Kreuzer Jack Watts

The key with the misses and those more obvious misses now are those who were the highest picks but never developed as much as expected - and a lot of it came down to being on bad teams that struggled developing talent. Scully/Trengove/Watts from Melbourne. Murphy/Gibbs/Kreuzer never becoming the greats they looked like they should as juniors. Cooney and Deledio both having their injuries. It's easy to bias yourself too much towards youth and too much towards unproven high picks.

What I've learnt since that time is you can be the best player and go pick 1 or pick 2, but if you go to a bad team, you're not going to develop to expectation and guys taken later who goes to better clubs can out-develop them. The other component I've become stronger on over time is taking proven, durable players ahead of young, unproven players. Going early doesn't guarantee you'll be the best in the draft or live up to expectation. So those learnings and my greater appreciation of how important it is to have durable guys who are available every week helped in creating my 2020-2029 team.

 

[Knightmare]

Every clubs leadership/youth development is questioned when they're down. It happened to Richmond and Collingwood only 3-4 years ago and now we look at Pendlebury and Cotchin as two of the better leaders in the comp.

To expect every player to develop at the same rate (i.e. Smalls/Mediums have 2 years, KPP's 4) is ridiculous and we've seen with the likes of Tim Kelly, Tom Stewart and even Marlion Pickett it's a dumb way to look at player development, jeez even Ainsworth/Bowes/Brodie are only 22 this year, they've got 10 years of footy left in them and we're questioning whether they'll make it as good players. Think you're jumping the gun on these guys and Gold Coasts future, they're still a project and as has been pointed out essentially started from scratch recently

People aren't leaders from the get-go and do over time develop as leaders just as coaches can develop from looking on the outer as M.Thompson/Clarkson/Hardwick/Buckley all have at stages to among the better coaches. Curiously in the cases when each coach appeared to have that transformative moment, that's when their playing group and their leaders really emerged.

Not every individual develops at the same rate but generally 2 years for small/mediums and 4 years for KPPs is enough time to determine whether someone can/can't play. If injuries happen, or if they're still growing, or something else comes into play, those kinds of things can enter calculations. It's just a rough guideline. And you consider rate of devecolopment, performance and likelihood that they'll be able to develop into a best 22 position in a particular spot.

I didn't watch Bowes as a junior, perhaps you can enlighten. Coming from Cairns, he would have never played against high level competition. Playing in the NEAFL as part of the academy I imagine, but can't remember. He might have had some skills to show, but players who haven't had that high level exposure are always going to take a bit longer.

He is building really nicely and I think will have a 'break out' year this year.

Bowes was excellent as a junior. In his draft year was in/out of my number one position in my power rankings. In 2016 I had Ainsworth 5, Bowes 6 and Brodie 8, with all fitting into my clear top-10 on list quality category based on projections of the time which was pretty consistent with the mainstream views at the time they were each drafted.

If doing a re-do of the 2016 draft, only Bowes would be a top-20 consideration from that draft based on performance to date.

On Bowes as a junior, my only criticism was that impact sometimes lacking and he can be slow getting up to speed, but otherwise he had everything else. He's someone who should by this time be in the 500d per 22 game territory by season 3, so there's a long way to go to get up to pace.

Are you trying to say that these players were established quality leaders in 2015-2016?

They were experienced veterans then who had the performances on the board. Their transformational moment seemed to start with Hardwick's transformation of quitting with the micromanaging and letting the players lead and take responsibility for their performances and take greater control. As soon as that happened, and same happened at Collingwood with Buckley when he stopped micromanaging, the teams both turned themselves around from bottom 8 sides to Grant Finalists or in Richmond's case a premiership side the next year, with that experienced veteran leadership from the playing group that was always there emerging.

The stories of Richmond and Collingwood contrast greatly to Gold Coast because they had a large group of guys who were experienced snf had played to an elite level and had established talent around them

 

[GWS Goose]

I think you are being super harsh on the new GC regime.. I reckon they over performed last year.
Ainsworth and Bowes pre injury were looking like they were becoming good players. Brodie you'd probably want more out of, but not every top 10 draft pick works out. King and Lukocious who are both super talents look to come along.

 

[briztoon]

I didn't expect Gold Coast to win a game last year. Though after those first four games their play reverted back to the mean as expected.

I did expect greater development from their group last year though and particularly those I viewed as their key long term pieces. Jack Martin I expected a lot more from and I've gone into every year thinking 'this year he is surely going to break out'. Jack Bowes, Will Brodie and Ben Ainsworth still aren't performing anywhere close to expectation and didn't impact nearly as much as I had hoped they would last year. Touk Miller feels like he has plateaued and is who he is. Peter Wright I expected to break out and he hasn't even been able to rediscover his form from his third season. I can't help but think as with Jack Scrimshaw those guys will need to move to maximise their talents. Those guys before the additions of Lukosius/Rankine/King last year were in my mind the core pieces Gold Coast needed to develop over the past couple of years and they're still not great with only Bowes and Miller of those serviceable at this point.

With Bowes/Brodie/Ainsworth/Miller looking only serviceable and Martin walking, we're having to look another generation down the line for Gold Coast's next hope of developing a competitive list with Lukosius/Rankine/King/Rowell/Anderson/Flanders/Ballard. Based on projections pre-draft, Bowes/Brodie/Ainsworth/Wright should along with the 'big 7' create a 'big 11' but the way they're tracking, it looks like if Gold Coast do absolutely everything right from here, it's a big 7 with any new ones added from here able to add to that.

On leadership, having other good leaders around enables others to emerge. Just as leaders have emerged for Brisbane with Hodge, same has happened in other situations. Pendlebury had Buckley/Clement/Rocca/Maxwell/Burns/Ball to learn from, and joined the leadership group in that third season. Selwood had Harley/Ling/Scarlett/Milburn/Enright/Mooney/Corey and joined Geelong's leadership group in his third season. Hodge was another case of plenty of leadership around him. Crawford/Vandenberg/Dew/Mitchell/Sewell. Then others emerging later in Roughead/Lewis. Leadership helps grow more leadership and sees the fast-tracking of youth development.

If you don't have quality leadership around, you have a Melbourne situation from when they had Trengove and Grimes as co-captains and they get exposed both as leaders and footballers because they don't have that support around them they needed. Had they not been rushed into this situation, they may not have been out of the league as fast as they were.

Scrimshaw was in Dew’s dog house. Mostly due to his inability to build anything close to a four quarter tank.

Sometimes a players lack of development doesn’t lay solely with the club. Players (especially those who don’t want to be at the club they’re at) have to take responsibility for their own work ethic and attitude.

Yes, a club has to create a culture that players have to buy in to. Some times, sone players just don’t buy in. Some times there’s a disconnect or falling out.


It happened at Brisbane last year with Tom Cutler. There were reports during the preseason that Tom wasn’t happy, and Tom was never able to work his way back in to the first team.

Fagan wanted Tom Cutler to play a certain way, and Tom wasn’t willing or able to play that way. He had it in him, we saw glimpses at NEAFL level. But he couldn’t play that way consistently.

Who’s fault is that? The coaching staff or the players?


You genuinely expected something from Martin last year? I said on the GC board beginning of last year you watch him walk through the season. And once he injured his finger I said he’d park it, and not likely play again.

Martins problem was never his talent, it has always been his inner drive and heart.


Do you actually watch many/any Suns games?

Against the Lions last year, Ainsworth was close to their best on ground against us up until just before half time, when he re-injured his shoulder.

If Ainsworth ever gets an injury free run from contact injuries, he’ll surprise people with how good he is.

Bowes is coming along nicely. At times he reminds me of McCluggage with how he moves.

Brodie’s “issues” are well documented up on GC. He doesn’t fit what Dew wants in his midfielders, but he sure is fighting for a first team spot. But there are only so many one paced, on position inside mids Dew will accept in his team (1), and that’s Swallow when he’s fit and healthy.


As for leaders emerging at Brisbane with Hodge’s arrival, that’s a media generated myth.

Every Lions fan on BF new Harris Andrews and Jarrod Berry were our future leaders before Hodge walked in the door. It’s just that they’re so young and the club isn’t willing to push them yet.

And before Hodge’s arrival, a big part of our drafting strategy was to draft young leaders.

What Hodge did do is drive standards to a new level.

But is freaking hard to blame Gold Coast for failing to recruit the Hodges of the league, when by your own admission there are only a few players like that in the competition, and if they don’t want to play for Gold Coast, there’s not much else the club can do, but for the coaches to drive standards themselves.

 

[briztoon]

Love to know how you judge Cam Rayners first two seasons?


When you’re judging players by wins and losses, are you actually watching them play week in and week out? Or just looking up their stats during a discussion?

Can you identify the role they’re playing in the team, and if they’re playing the same role at AFL level as what they played at TAC cup, or WAFL U18’s, etc?

 

[Knightmare]

I think you are being super harsh on the new GC regime.. I reckon they over performed last year.
Ainsworth and Bowes pre injury were looking like they were becoming good players. Brodie you'd probably want more out of, but not every top 10 draft pick works out. King and Lukocious who are both super talents look to come along.

On wins and losses Gold Coast overperformed last year. My expectations of Ainsworth/Bowes/Brodie are of top 5-10 picks, so if they're not top-20 players all things said and done from their draft, they're not successes based on how impressive they all were as juniors. Hopefully for Gold Coast they each improve a lot more because they're guys we should be talking about as A-graders.

It's obviously too early to say anyone within Gold Coast's coaching/development/fitness/health staff should be cut. We need to see more years from them. And as with any club, until a club has turned things around beyond doubt (ie become a top-4 side then a perennial top-4 side), they haven't.

Scrimshaw was in Dew’s dog house. Mostly due to his inability to build anything close to a four quarter tank.

Sometimes a players lack of development doesn’t lay solely with the club. Players (especially those who don’t want to be at the club they’re at) have to take responsibility for their own work ethic and attitude.

Yes, a club has to create a culture that players have to buy in to. Some times, sone players just don’t buy in. Some times there’s a disconnect or falling out.

It happened at Brisbane last year with Tom Cutler. There were reports during the preseason that Tom wasn’t happy, and Tom was never able to work his way back in to the first team.

Fagan wanted Tom Cutler to play a certain way, and Tom wasn’t willing or able to play that way. He had it in him, we saw glimpses at NEAFL level. But he couldn’t play that way consistently.

Who’s fault is that? The coaching staff or the players?

You genuinely expected something from Martin last year? I said on the GC board beginning of last year you watch him walk through the season. And once he injured his finger I said he’d park it, and not likely play again.

Martins problem was never his talent, it has always been his inner drive and heart.


Do you actually watch many/any Suns games?

Against the Lions last year, Ainsworth was close to their best on ground against us up until just before half time, when he re-injured his shoulder.

If Ainsworth ever gets an injury free run from contact injuries, he’ll surprise people with how good he is.

Bowes is coming along nicely. At times he reminds me of McCluggage with how he moves.

Brodie’s “issues” are well documented up on GC. He doesn’t fit what Dew wants in his midfielders, but he sure is fighting for a first team spot. But there are only so many one paced, on position inside mids Dew will accept in his team (1), and that’s Swallow when he’s fit and healthy.


As for leaders emerging at Brisbane with Hodge’s arrival, that’s a media generated myth.

Every Lions fan on BF new Harris Andrews and Jarrod Berry were our future leaders before Hodge walked in the door. It’s just that they’re so young and the club isn’t willing to push them yet.

And before Hodge’s arrival, a big part of our drafting strategy was to draft young leaders.

What Hodge did do is drive standards to a new level.

But is freaking hard to blame Gold Coast for failing to recruit the Hodges of the league, when by your own admission there are only a few players like that in the competition, and if they don’t want to play for Gold Coast, there’s not much else the club can do, but for the coaches to drive standards themselves.

I've found a lot of players have been in Dew's doghouse, and it seems pretty consistently to be Gold Coast's best players. Whether it's Lyons, Hall, Martin, Wright, Brodie. They're among the best players Gold Coast have had and are all the types of players I'd be looking to build around given how little talent their list has had in recent years.

On Tom Cutler, I've never been a fan. He's too outside and doesn't have a clear position he plays to a best 22 standard and is more of a stop-gap/depth guy for mine.

Martin I go into each season expecting Dale Thomas circa 2010 play from. I've found him effective and to have more than enough good moments to be one of Gold Coast's best players each year, but obviously he has never found that elite level of plays he was expected to attain within a few seasons, and that relative hope drops away slightly with each passing season. If motivation is indeed his issue, the key towards motivation has tended over time to come to those who play on winning teams with a strong mix of veteran leaders.

Ainsworth I've found patchy in his time with Gold Coast so far. You're right that injuries have hurt, and he has had his moments as you've alluded to, but I haven't found his standard of performance to be up to scratch to date. Particularly when we're talking about a sub 180cm guy who being of that size is someone you draft for who he is, as likely there isn't a great deal of improvement to come. He's quick and has that explosiveness, but he's low production, doesn't hit the scoreboard enough, hasn't been the marking threat i50 he looked as a junior and he's rarely laying tackles and not applying enough forward pressure.

I'm not as fussed by the concept of having too many one paced midfielders. I see there being room for more than one on a team. Speed in the midfield should be viewed as a bonus rather than requirement. Particularly when the guys used through there aren't winning the ball. On NEAFL performance and AFL performance when used through there, I've liked the play of Brodie and actually felt he has outperformed both Brodie and Ainsworth. He should be clear best 22. I would like to see him add more forward of centre craft though to round out his game. If Gold Coast don't afford Brodie the opportunities he should be getting next year, he'd fit an Essendon or Sydney very nicely as a plug and play midfielder who Gold Coast are underrating.

Bowes has been solid but I expect through the midfield as Rowell/Anderson emerge that he would be better used more as a flanker who rotates through the midfield, rather than as a midfielder first.

Brisbane may have identified and drafted some they viewed as young leaders, but through having Hodge there in combination with Chris Fagan as coach, the standards were driven and Hodge has taught the club's leaders the way and to the greatest extent Zorko who has really emerged in a big way as a leader. The young group will be better for having had Hodge and the way he set the standard both on and off the field. I'm sure you will have read it, but Alex Witherden's piece on Luke Hodge was the most illuminating on this subject on the extent to which Hodge has helped in Brisbane's transformation.

On Gold Coast, I do see opportunities missed. They let go of players they should never have, dropping several of them when they should have been players the club built around as central components. They also had opportunities over the years to target veterans who had been let go too soon. In 2016 to name just one year Brent Harvey and Jack Grimes would have been perfect targets and both would have loved another shot at another club. Aggressive offers for Dal Santo and Bartel could also have been made to see if they could be coaxed into joining the Suns for a couple of seasons. There are those kinds of names every season with veterans let go of too early every season.

Love to know how you judge Cam Rayners first two seasons?


When you’re judging players by wins and losses, are you actually watching them play week in and week out? Or just looking up their stats during a discussion?

Can you identify the role they’re playing in the team, and if they’re playing the same role at AFL level as what they played at TAC cup, or WAFL U18’s, etc?

Rayner's first season was solid but his second season was a regression and not impressive at all based on where I had expected him to be by this stage. Playing a greater proportion of his time forward and not hitting the scoreboard any more than his first season, particularly on a much improved Brisbane side is a disappointing result. I retain high hopes for Rayner in the long run because of his power and the way he can influence games when he's on, but for him it will be working on his running and building his endurance base with his work rate/energy lower than it needs to be as a forward.

I balance my watching of AFL games with NAB League/U18 Champs and some selective state league matches of interest. Being across more than just the AFL, I'm not watching every AFL team every week, but there aren't many players I'm not across in terms of role and how they're performing in a given season,

For the purposes of discussion I can rattle off what guys can/can't do, but to validate rationale behind anything, backing that rationale up with statistics I consider essential as it's direct evidence and something because I have standardised benchmarks at each position, something I can easily use as a point of comparison and use in the context of one's game.

 

[PMBangers]

In 2016 to name just one year Brent Harvey and Jack Grimes would have been perfect targets and both would have loved another shot at another club. Aggressive offers for Dal Santo and Bartel could also have been made to see if they could be coaxed into joining the Suns for a couple of seasons.

Do you actually know if there was an approach made or are you just assuming that there wasn't? Plenty of reasons guys might not want to play an extra year or two at the gold coast; relocating young families, off field roles at closer clubs, media offers, etc.

And is there any evidence to suggest those guys would actually add anything in terms of leadership for the young group? or would they have been another Ablett scenario where there was a misjudge in leadership ability?

You said Grimes wasn't great at Melbourne as a co-captain due to lack of support? Why would he be any different on the Gold Coast?

 

[andleanback]

Do you actually know if there was an approach made or are you just assuming that there wasn't? Plenty of reasons guys might not want to play an extra year or two at the gold coast; relocating young families, off field roles at closer clubs, media offers, etc.

And is there any evidence to suggest those guys would actually add anything in terms of leadership for the young group? or would they have been another Ablett scenario where there was a misjudge in leadership ability?

You said Grimes wasn't great at Melbourne as a co-captain due to lack of support? Why would he be any different on the Gold Coast?

Grimes would’ve gone up there and been a list clogger, then they would’ve got pasted about making that move.

 

[Peel67skin]

Grimes would’ve gone up there and been a list clogger, then they would’ve got pasted about making that move.

I agree, GHS,Murdoch, Miles are all suggested by the media as great leader and big body players to help out the kids and after a year only Miles are decent .

 

[Knightmare]

Do you actually know if there was an approach made or are you just assuming that there wasn't? Plenty of reasons guys might not want to play an extra year or two at the gold coast; relocating young families, off field roles at closer clubs, media offers, etc.

And is there any evidence to suggest those guys would actually add anything in terms of leadership for the young group? or would they have been another Ablett scenario where there was a misjudge in leadership ability?

You said Grimes wasn't great at Melbourne as a co-captain due to lack of support? Why would he be any different on the Gold Coast?

Harvey was looking and was motivated to play on but the reports of the time were no offers. Grimes similarly received no interest to my knowledge.

Harvey was a leader through the way he trained and set the tone with his attention to detail in his preparation.

Grimes similarly had a positive reputation and built that from his hardness on the field and how he approached things off the field.

The problem with the Grimes/Trengove combination is they were captains too young and they didn't have any veteran support. They required further veterans around them for that combination to succeed in any capacity. By the time Grimes was cut, he had enough experience to be of value in a leadership role as a component of a leadership group and would have been a walkup start as with Harvey in Gold Coast's best team given their porous defence.

 

[briztoon]

Harvey was looking and was motivated to play on but the reports of the time were no offers. Grimes similarly received no interest to my knowledge.

Harvey was a leader through the way he trained and set the tone with his attention to detail in his preparation.

Grimes similarly had a positive reputation and built that from his hardness on the field and how he approached things off the field.

The problem with the Grimes/Trengove combination is they were captains too young and they didn't have any veteran support. They required further veterans around them for that combination to succeed in any capacity. By the time Grimes was cut, he had enough experience to be of value in a leadership role as a component of a leadership group and would have been a walkup start as with Harvey in Gold Coast's best team given their porous defence.

Paying a veteran significant money to move to the Gold Coast, to then primarily be a leader in a non best 22 role is a significant waste of cap space.

There were exceptional circumstances in the recruitment of Hodge to Brisbane that we don’t see every year around the league.

 

[PMBangers]

Harvey was a leader through the way he trained and set the tone with his attention to detail in his preparation.

Grimes similarly had a positive reputation and built that from his hardness on the field and how he approached things off the field.

So they were both similar to Ablett? professional and hard workers with no actual proven leadership qualities? I'd forgive Gold Coast for passing on two average players who don't offer what they want personally, but that's just me?

Just seems like it's be another George Horlin-Smith/ Anthony Miles/ Corey Ellis situation where you want them to bring in below par talent and polish it up as 'improving culture'

 

[briztoon]

On wins and losses Gold Coast overperformed last year. My expectations of Ainsworth/Bowes/Brodie are of top 5-10 picks, so if they're not top-20 players all things said and done from their draft, they're not successes based on how impressive they all were as juniors. Hopefully for Gold Coast they each improve a lot more because they're guys we should be talking about as A-graders.

It's obviously too early to say anyone within Gold Coast's coaching/development/fitness/health staff should be cut. We need to see more years from them. And as with any club, until a club has turned things around beyond doubt (ie become a top-4 side then a perennial top-4 side), they haven't.



I've found a lot of players have been in Dew's doghouse, and it seems pretty consistently to be Gold Coast's best players. Whether it's Lyons, Hall, Martin, Wright, Brodie. They're among the best players Gold Coast have had and are all the types of players I'd be looking to build around given how little talent their list has had in recent years.

On Tom Cutler, I've never been a fan. He's too outside and doesn't have a clear position he plays to a best 22 standard and is more of a stop-gap/depth guy for mine.

Martin I go into each season expecting Dale Thomas circa 2010 play from. I've found him effective and to have more than enough good moments to be one of Gold Coast's best players each year, but obviously he has never found that elite level of plays he was expected to attain within a few seasons, and that relative hope drops away slightly with each passing season. If motivation is indeed his issue, the key towards motivation has tended over time to come to those who play on winning teams with a strong mix of veteran leaders.

Ainsworth I've found patchy in his time with Gold Coast so far. You're right that injuries have hurt, and he has had his moments as you've alluded to, but I haven't found his standard of performance to be up to scratch to date. Particularly when we're talking about a sub 180cm guy who being of that size is someone you draft for who he is, as likely there isn't a great deal of improvement to come. He's quick and has that explosiveness, but he's low production, doesn't hit the scoreboard enough, hasn't been the marking threat i50 he looked as a junior and he's rarely laying tackles and not applying enough forward pressure.

I'm not as fussed by the concept of having too many one paced midfielders. I see there being room for more than one on a team. Speed in the midfield should be viewed as a bonus rather than requirement. Particularly when the guys used through there aren't winning the ball. On NEAFL performance and AFL performance when used through there, I've liked the play of Brodie and actually felt he has outperformed both Brodie and Ainsworth. He should be clear best 22. I would like to see him add more forward of centre craft though to round out his game. If Gold Coast don't afford Brodie the opportunities he should be getting next year, he'd fit an Essendon or Sydney very nicely as a plug and play midfielder who Gold Coast are underrating.

Bowes has been solid but I expect through the midfield as Rowell/Anderson emerge that he would be better used more as a flanker who rotates through the midfield, rather than as a midfielder first.

Brisbane may have identified and drafted some they viewed as young leaders, but through having Hodge there in combination with Chris Fagan as coach, the standards were driven and Hodge has taught the club's leaders the way and to the greatest extent Zorko who has really emerged in a big way as a leader. The young group will be better for having had Hodge and the way he set the standard both on and off the field. I'm sure you will have read it, but Alex Witherden's piece on Luke Hodge was the most illuminating on this subject on the extent to which Hodge has helped in Brisbane's transformation.

On Gold Coast, I do see opportunities missed. They let go of players they should never have, dropping several of them when they should have been players the club built around as central components. They also had opportunities over the years to target veterans who had been let go too soon. In 2016 to name just one year Brent Harvey and Jack Grimes would have been perfect targets and both would have loved another shot at another club. Aggressive offers for Dal Santo and Bartel could also have been made to see if they could be coaxed into joining the Suns for a couple of seasons. There are those kinds of names every season with veterans let go of too early every season.



Rayner's first season was solid but his second season was a regression and not impressive at all based on where I had expected him to be by this stage. Playing a greater proportion of his time forward and not hitting the scoreboard any more than his first season, particularly on a much improved Brisbane side is a disappointing result. I retain high hopes for Rayner in the long run because of his power and the way he can influence games when he's on, but for him it will be working on his running and building his endurance base with his work rate/energy lower than it needs to be as a forward.

I balance my watching of AFL games with NAB League/U18 Champs and some selective state league matches of interest. Being across more than just the AFL, I'm not watching every AFL team every week, but there aren't many players I'm not across in terms of role and how they're performing in a given season,

For the purposes of discussion I can rattle off what guys can/can't do, but to validate rationale behind anything, backing that rationale up with statistics I consider essential as it's direct evidence and something because I have standardised benchmarks at each position, something I can easily use as a point of comparison and use in the context of one's game.

I have one reservation about Gold Coasts current rebuild, and that’s Dew.

From an outside perspective, it appears to me Dew has to work on his man management skills. It’s not good continually alienating members of the playing group.

But it’s a touchy subject on the GC board, so hard to discuss, without alienating some members who appear to have reliable sources within the club.

 

[LittleG]

GC not going anywhere until they stop drafting players and start targeting other clubs leaders. Even a few old leaders, who can drive the culture. Nothing wrong with overpaying for a few leaders in their 30’s. Target 2-3 each year and do it every year until you have 4. Pay extra money and give their former clubs high draft picks to compensate if required. Retain the player into a coaching NEAFL role.

 

[briztoon]

GC not going anywhere until they stop drafting players and start targeting other clubs leaders. Even a few old leaders, who can drive the culture. Nothing wrong with overpaying for a few leaders in their 30’s. Target 2-3 each year and do it every year until you have 4. Pay extra money and give their former clubs high draft picks to compensate if required. Retain the player into a coaching NEAFL role.

You don’t think they’ve tried this?

It’s been widely discussed already. Such players aren’t willing to move, and by paying high wages and trading out high draft picks, all they’d be doing is tying up valuable current resources, while selling their future.

Incredibly short sighted comment.

 

[LittleG]

So they were both similar to Ablett? professional and hard workers with no actual proven leadership qualities? I'd forgive Gold Coast for passing on two average players who don't offer what they want personally, but that's just me?

Just seems like it's be another George Horlin-Smith/ Anthony Miles/ Corey Ellis situation where you want them to bring in below par talent and polish it up as 'improving culture'

Ablett was a poor leader. His me first approach to the game was detrimental to development of other players. His recruitment was great to bring relevancy to GC but he drove the wrong culture. Bartel or Selwood from Geelong would have been better choices. Ablett is a better player but not what GC needed. Sometimes the best on field player, isn’t the best off field player. Ablett was a shockingly poor choice. In contrast GWS who took Ward and Scully. A hard nut who is a training room freak & an elite runner who sets an example.

Ablett did neither.

GC could have targeted Luke Hodge when he was open to going to Lions but didn’t try very hard. Offer him and extra $500k/yr and get him to drive the culture.


Each year there are veteran players on year to year contracts who are FA’s, who could be paid well to move. From conversations with player managers, they wonder why GC don’t call. They might ‘clog’ the list for a year BUT the worth they can bring with professionalism is what GC needs. I am not talking about average or fringe players. B Harvey should have been at GC, even IF it was as a playing coach. M Boyd should have been at GC straight after he won a flag (no one even asked him).

 

[GWS Goose]

I actually think they are on the right track. Obviously a way to go, but think they have drafted well the last couple times round. The high draft picks have all re-signed. Despite the Adelaide sides declaring if they pick the SA boys they'll just take them after 2 year.
The first third of the year they were competitive, didn't handle injuries well. But they have the players to build a team around, especially now that the AFL has committed to helping them. Lot of sides with a worse long term infield outlook than the Suns

 

[LittleG]

You don’t think they’ve tried this?

It’s been widely discussed already. Such players aren’t willing to move, and by paying high wages and trading out high draft picks, all they’d be doing is tying up valuable current resources, while selling their future.

Incredibly short sighted comment.

The offers I have heard discussed by player managers weren’t worth moving for. After tax, relocating and getting a nanny to help the wife, there wasn’t much left. When the player managers aren’t seeing the advantage, they aren’t going to be advising the player to move.

 

[GUMBLETRON]

The offers I have heard discussed by player managers weren’t worth moving for. After tax, relocating and getting a nanny to help the wife, there wasn’t much left. When the player managers aren’t seeing the advantage, they aren’t going to be advising the player to move.

Whether it's through mismanagement or simply the cost of keeping elite kids at a basketcase, there simply hasn't been money in the cap to throw bigger deals at these types. They were right at the limit when Evans took over, with a structural blow-out looming that had to be carefully managed.

 

[Peel67skin]

The offers I have heard discussed by player managers weren’t worth moving for. After tax, relocating and getting a nanny to help the wife, there wasn’t much left. When the player managers aren’t seeing the advantage, they aren’t going to be advising the player to move.

Do you think paying over for a player or two going to make any different in 2018 with Dew first year (Saad and ablett gone) or 2019 (May and Lynch gone) season and culture? Luke hodge availability was before the announcement of Dew as coach or GCS just finalise who they want as coach. All this sacking of coach (eade) or staff ( clayton) are under contract from previous management.

 

[briztoon]

The offers I have heard discussed by player managers weren’t worth moving for. After tax, relocating and getting a nanny to help the wife, there wasn’t much left. When the player managers aren’t seeing the advantage, they aren’t going to be advising the player to move.

The AFL pays for a portion of relocation costs. It’s actually in the players EBA. Last I read, it’s set at about $5k.

Even after tax, there’s a fair whack left over from a $400k wage. If a family can’t live on that, they have to reassess their lifestyle.

And as for a nanny, what a b.s. comment. Thousands of blue and white collar workers move every year, on far less income and survive without a nanny.

AFL clubs, and their playing groups, provide plenty of support for families, especially reaching out to new players wives.

 

[Knightmare]

Paying a veteran significant money to move to the Gold Coast, to then primarily be a leader in a non best 22 role is a significant waste of cap space.

There were exceptional circumstances in the recruitment of Hodge to Brisbane that we don’t see every year around the league.

My comment is whether it's Harvey and/or Grimes they're both clear best 22.

Harvey in his final year was the only guy with 490d+ and 35g+ in 2016 and he did that with one of the highest kick ratings in the competition. I don't think anyone can reasonably dispute he didn't have another two quality years in him.

The only debate of the two would be around Grimes, and having watched Grimes in the VFL in his final season, he's someone only Harbrow and Hanley would have played in front of on performance. Grimes was still racking it up, tackling, covering the ground and providing a hard edge and leading out on the field. He's someone either half-back or wing who would have had a net positive impact on winning for at least two seasons based on performance.

Ablett I regard as an inferior leader to the pair. He's one of the greatest to play the game, but had never shown any capacity to lead as someone who for Geelong just liked playing and for Gold Coast had nothing to offer as a leader other than just general quality on field performances. While he was there, he needed significant support in the form of a group of veterans who had figured prominently either in successful teams in the past or in leadership groups on other teams previously, both of which Harvey and Grimes had as former captains of their clubs.

So they were both similar to Ablett? professional and hard workers with no actual proven leadership qualities? I'd forgive Gold Coast for passing on two average players who don't offer what they want personally, but that's just me?

Just seems like it's be another George Horlin-Smith/ Anthony Miles/ Corey Ellis situation where you want them to bring in below par talent and polish it up as 'improving culture'

Horlin-Smith/Miles/Ellis as players who were never established at AFL level or parts of leadership groups were list cloggers who served no purpose in being added. They were depth guys from their former situations who had never achieved anything. They're exactly the players Gold Coast needed to avoid. The need to be about adding to their young core group to build around and providing veteran support and leadership to assist in the speed in which they develop.

I have one reservation about Gold Coasts current rebuild, and that’s Dew.

From an outside perspective, it appears to me Dew has to work on his man management skills. It’s not good continually alienating members of the playing group.

But it’s a touchy subject on the GC board, so hard to discuss, without alienating some members who appear to have reliable sources within the club.

From a relationship perspective and clashing with so many of their better players in the years since joining the club, that has been the clear observable issue. Jarryd Lyons who aside from Ablett was their best player, how Dew can see him as not part of their plans, then Aaron Hall who was that next guy. It's rocks in the head stuff. Same story with Jack Martin and Peter Wright from my perspective. Not playing Will Brodie ahead of less capable, older midfielders. He's not playing the right players or building around those right pieces.

He seems to have the group buying in and competing well given their modest talent, so Dew deserves that amount of credit. But as with anyone, he's hardly going perfectly and has room for improvement.

I actually think they are on the right track. Obviously a way to go, but think they have drafted well the last couple times round. The high draft picks have all re-signed. Despite the Adelaide sides declaring if they pick the SA boys they'll just take them after 2 year.
The first third of the year they were competitive, didn't handle injuries well. But they have the players to build a team around, especially now that the AFL has committed to helping them. Lot of sides with a worse long term infield outlook than the Suns

Gold Coast have a chance with their big 7 of 'Lukosius/Rankine/King/Rowell/Anderson/Flanders/Ballard.' They have that young core of talent that can be developed, and Bowes/Brodie/Ainsworth are others who if Gold Coast really get their development right can be good supplementary pieces. If three years from now we're looking at that group and still wonder when they'll come good. That is the concern. The great KPPs by season 4 are generally great. So having had a season into Lukosius/King already and two into Ballard, by the end of 2023 will be the time we know how successful this latest rebuild has been.

 

[briztoon]

I actually think they are on the right track. Obviously a way to go, but think they have drafted well the last couple times round. The high draft picks have all re-signed. Despite the Adelaide sides declaring if they pick the SA boys they'll just take them after 2 year.
The first third of the year they were competitive, didn't handle injuries well. But they have the players to build a team around, especially now that the AFL has committed to helping them. Lot of sides with a worse long term infield outlook than the Suns

Yep. Imagine that they’re a new expansion club.

They’ve got the foundation of enough experienced players. Players in every age group. And a good collection of elite draftees.

What they finally have is depth beyond their best 22 this year.

Admittedly it’s young depth, but that’s no different from a lot of clubs, even clubs in the top 8.

Richmond last year were forced to play mostly young players and draftees when injuries hit.

Brisbane’s experienced depth only goes to about 27 players, after that it’s all kids, many who haven’t played a game yet, or might have 5 to 10 games experience.

 

[LittleG]

The AFL pays for a portion of relocation costs. It’s actually in the players EBA. Last I read, it’s set at about $5k.

Even after tax, there’s a fair whack left over from a $400k wage. If a family can’t live on that, they have to reassess their lifestyle.

And as for a nanny, what a b.s. comment. Thousands of blue and white collar workers move every year, on far less income and survive without a nanny.

AFL clubs, and their playing groups, provide plenty of support for families, especially reaching out to new players wives.

It’s not about having a good living on $400k. They could stay at their current club for $400k. IF you are an elite sportsman at an AFL club, would you leave your current $400k for $500k? Maybe. Would you leave for $600k, probably. For $700k, yes.

Perhaps you pay more but at least the culture gets fixed. Currently you pay extra to keep the young draftees.... having an elite culture run by older players, would make staying more attractive and not require paying the young ones as much.

 

[Peel67skin]

I think GCS just need to learn from interstate club eg Brisbane, Fremantle, GWS, Sydney how to build culture. All these club go through the good and the bad period.