Knightmare's 2011 List Management Thread - Part 2

[Knightmare]

Re: Knightmare's 2011 List Management Thread

Just a question for anyone who has followed Simon Buckley closely this year...

I went to pretty much every Collingwood game in Melbourne and watched all other on TV and in hindsight, I can only picture Buckley kicking the ball or doing something very silly under pressure.

My question is, was he a good defender? Has he got 1-on-1 abilities equal to any of our other defenders?

Secondly, I just don't see him as a defender. From what I have seen, has speed and kicking skills, may Nathan Buckley - under kicking-at-a-premium gameplan - test him out on a wing in the preseason/a few early games? We all know what Collingwood can do with spud players and speed, bulk and kicking skills aint a bad canvas to work with.

Buckley isn't great defensively and isn't a shut down back. Has mainly been used as an offensive player and never given serious pure defensive roles as a Toovey has - even at VFL level.
Would get caught out by quicker players because he doesn't really have that closing speed of a Goldsack. Then against bigger forwards wouldn't be any competition even though he is reasonably strongly built.

Always seen Simon as being a better forward flanker or offensive wingman rather than backman. Big reason being down back there is allot more pressure and with that pressure comes his poor decision making.

But all this said don't really see a spot in the side for him. Particularly now with Marty back - who I am hearing is in tip top condition.

 

[Number 10]

Re: Knightmare's 2011 List Management Thread

Thanks mate, definitely don't see him as best 22, just thought we could maybe turn him into a good player. Swan, Leigh Brown, Toovey, Harry, Maxwell come to mind!!

 

[Ed D]

Re: Knightmare's 2011 List Management Thread

Where did you read this?

I think it was on the AFL twitter.

Buckley isn't great defensively and isn't a shut down back. Has mainly been used as an offensive player and never given serious pure defensive roles as a Toovey has - even at VFL level.
Would get caught out by quicker players because he doesn't really have that closing speed of a Goldsack. Then against bigger forwards wouldn't be any competition even though he is reasonably strongly built.

Always seen Simon as being a better forward flanker or offensive wingman rather than backman. Big reason being down back there is allot more pressure and with that pressure comes his poor decision making.

But all this said don't really see a spot in the side for him. Particularly now with Marty back - who I am hearing is in tip top condition.

I think Buckley is a better defender than that, but I agree, he's not top 22 material and it's his decision making that's letting him down. He's one of those players that's a lot better when he doesn't have the ball.

 

[Buckskin]

Collingwood has also put giant teenage ruckman Jarrod Witts straight onto the senior and not the rookie list suggesting it expects him to play at the top level early next season.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...-with-aflpa-20111011-1lj5t.html#ixzz1aTq9sC1g
​

 

[TheFreshBanana]

Not too sure how anybody outside of the club knows yet since we haven't even started drafting yet.

 

[Snoop Dog]

I think to keep a successful list together and successful you need to actually think about the spread of talent. Lets take Geelong as the benchmark. They largely have a list of 25 players who can play senior footy straight away and are physically able to do so. The balance of their list is actually kids and they were v lucky this year that Duncan, Christensen, Vardy, Menzel etc all stood up.

IN contrast our list is quite different and its why we have problems with salary cap. We have 30 players who could come in straight away and very few kids really belting the door down other than Fas.

Ultimately the club are going to have to say goodbye to the players in that 25-30 bracket who have had 3-5 years and havent been able to force their way in. For sure rookie some back (eg Dick) but guys like McCarthy, Buckley all need to go for mine and we need to be trying to trade up our selections to get access to the best kids we can.

I must admit I would have been tougher on guys like Didak and Johnson as well. They have never really stood up in finals and whilst it would never happen bc of the impact on culture but if you were a mercinary you would have looked to ship them out this year for improved draft selections or 18/19 yo's you rate on other lists (eg Stevens)

Ps On Marty I am actually a bit concerned about him. With what Mick said in his book it makes you wonder.

 

[TheFreshBanana]

I think if we can keep up this constant stream of success then we are able to rely on loyalty as a factor to maintain the salary cap. But agree with players like McCarthy and Buckley have to go, although tough on Buckley as I thought he wasn't too bad this year.

Not sure if we need to look for the best kids though, we already have quite a lot of youngsters that are capable of making a massive impact.

Fasolo, Seedsman, Thomas, Witts, Mooney and possibly Ceglar, Sinclair, Keefe, Young and if anybody remembers Elijah Edwards.

 

[4#Didak#4]

I think to keep a successful list together and successful you need to actually think about the spread of talent. Lets take Geelong as the benchmark. They largely have a list of 25 players who can play senior footy straight away and are physically able to do so. The balance of their list is actually kids and they were v lucky this year that Duncan, Christensen, Vardy, Menzel etc all stood up.

IN contrast our list is quite different and its why we have problems with salary cap. We have 30 players who could come in straight away and very few kids really belting the door down other than Fas.

Ultimately the club are going to have to say goodbye to the players in that 25-30 bracket who have had 3-5 years and havent been able to force their way in. For sure rookie some back (eg Dick) but guys like McCarthy, Buckley all need to go for mine and we need to be trying to trade up our selections to get access to the best kids we can.

I must admit I would have been tougher on guys like Didak and Johnson as well. They have never really stood up in finals and whilst it would never happen bc of the impact on culture but if you were a mercinary you would have looked to ship them out this year for improved draft selections or 18/19 yo's you rate on other lists (eg Stevens)

Ps On Marty I am actually a bit concerned about him. With what Mick said in his book it makes you wonder.

What was said in Mick's book about Marty?

 

[Trojan Pies]

Ps On Marty I am actually a bit concerned about him. With what Mick said in his book it makes you wonder.

Haven't seen or heard what Malthouse wrote. Can you elaborate?

Regardless on the back of Marty's Q&A and the fact that Hine has told him what is expected/now saying he sees this as "career"/mentor role of Mooney and Cribbin do we still think he is going to do another runner? I've been convinced otherwise.

 

[Buckskin]

Basically said he's one sided and would be worked out by the opposition and took him asking to be played in the forwardline as not being a team player.

Fair enough probably, Malthouse was all about the structures, anyway the kid cost himself a flag so now he needs to put his head down and get one back.

 

[4#Didak#4]

Basically said he's one sided and would be worked out by the opposition and took him asking to be played in the forwardline as not being a team player.

Fair enough probably, Malthouse was all about the structures, anyway the kid cost himself a flag so now he needs to put his head down and get one back.

Well I suppose he is one sided, but tell me Ben Johnson is not and he is a MM favourite. Plenty of one sided players in the AFL doing well (is actually something I hate too, but clearly you can get away with it).

I think with MM he tells you where you play not the other way around & the stubborn old bugger probably took, what is probably a fairly innocent request, badly and Marty paid the price.

Interesting to see how Buckley uses him. I still see him as a half back/ wing, can't really see him in the forward line.

 

[TheFreshBanana]

True that one sided players still go on to be successful, from what I recall Shaw is one sided too, but being able to dispose the ball on both sides is almost required in the modern game now and is a handy thing to have.

Don't mind if Clarke is struggling to use his opposite foot but if he's being stubborn about it then there might be a problem.

 

[Buckskin]

Interesting to see how Buckley uses him. I still see him as a half back/ wing, can't really see him in the forward line.

He looked really comfortable in front of goal in that Geelong prelim under extreme pressure in a close game. Marty has said in the past he plays Didaks role back home, perhaps high half forward/mid is the go if Bucks sees him there.

 

[Shade]

Someone tell me about James Stewart he is a father son for next year correct ?
is he a KPF ? where would he go in the draft if it next year if no father son ?

 

[mattys123]

Someone tell me about James Stewart he is a father son for next year correct ?
is he a KPF ? where would he go in the draft if it next year if no father son ?

This article says he'll probably cost us a first round pick, but it also says we might trade with GWS to list him now, which to me makes no sense as GWS have already traded for 2 of the 4 17 year olds this year, and are unlikely to trade for more (article was written in April though).

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/clubs-strike-it-rich-on-early-calls-20110414-1dg07.html

 

[TradeDraft]

Well I suppose he is one sided, but tell me Ben Johnson is not and he is a MM favourite. Plenty of one sided players in the AFL doing well (is actually something I hate too, but clearly you can get away with it).

I think with MM he tells you where you play not the other way around & the stubborn old bugger probably took, what is probably a fairly innocent request, badly and Marty paid the price.

Interesting to see how Buckley uses him. I still see him as a half back/ wing, can't really see him in the forward line.

Also Add Toovey as a MM Favorite who is One Sided

 

[Knightmare]

I think to keep a successful list together and successful you need to actually think about the spread of talent. Lets take Geelong as the benchmark. They largely have a list of 25 players who can play senior footy straight away and are physically able to do so. The balance of their list is actually kids and they were v lucky this year that Duncan, Christensen, Vardy, Menzel etc all stood up.

IN contrast our list is quite different and its why we have problems with salary cap. We have 30 players who could come in straight away and very few kids really belting the door down other than Fas.

Ultimately the club are going to have to say goodbye to the players in that 25-30 bracket who have had 3-5 years and havent been able to force their way in. For sure rookie some back (eg Dick) but guys like McCarthy, Buckley all need to go for mine and we need to be trying to trade up our selections to get access to the best kids we can.

I must admit I would have been tougher on guys like Didak and Johnson as well. They have never really stood up in finals and whilst it would never happen bc of the impact on culture but if you were a mercinary you would have looked to ship them out this year for improved draft selections or 18/19 yo's you rate on other lists (eg Stevens)

Ps On Marty I am actually a bit concerned about him. With what Mick said in his book it makes you wonder.

Think you are absolutely right about the 25-30 who can play v what Geelong have.

Dick, McCarthy and Buckley are certainly the ones to move on. None are really any threat to break into our best 22 as a regular at any point which is why they are the ideal players to move on.

Not really sure Johnson/Didak have any value. Johnson would have no more than 1 year of footy left in him - and don't expect him to play 22 games.
Didak has had a poor year and won't have any value - being 28. Should come back hard next season and break back into our top 15, top 10 if strong preseason, so really he has greater value to us than he would to other sides.
Really only worth offloading these older types when you are a non contender - but if a Maxwell who specifically adds that type leadership better to retain to help the next generation come through.

The upgrading draft picks idea is not something i've ever been a big fan of. Doesn't guarantee the quality of talent coming in, you might get the player you want later or perhaps get an even better player for all you know - even though it is against the odds.
It would be ideal to have more quality talent coming through. Not sure this year is necessarily the year though. Hold out one more year then we can think about moving some of those middle of the list types on for better picks - if we decide this is the right approach based on performance next year and perhaps salary cap situation.

Marty will be interesting. Don't think Marty will necessarily be hard to coach. From everyone I talk to about Marty the word is that he is as hard of a trainer as anyone and there is a big reason he was such a star in Ireland. Is as motivated if not more so than when he first arrived at the club. Has arrived back in Melb in excellent physical condition and is ready to attack the preseason and really fight for a position in our best side. Really excited to see what he will produce.
But I do agree that we did overpay. At Marty's age considering he has spent those few years out of the game it is allot to pay. Not nearly a guaranteed best 22 player.

I think if we can keep up this constant stream of success then we are able to rely on loyalty as a factor to maintain the salary cap. But agree with players like McCarthy and Buckley have to go, although tough on Buckley as I thought he wasn't too bad this year.

Not sure if we need to look for the best kids though, we already have quite a lot of youngsters that are capable of making a massive impact.

Fasolo, Seedsman, Thomas, Witts, Mooney and possibly Ceglar, Sinclair, Keefe, Young and if anybody remembers Elijah Edwards.

Edwards is a little way yet.

After this year we will probably start to build a little more through the draft. But for this year adding Witts and Mooney who might surprise a couple, I think we should come out of it ok.

Someone tell me about James Stewart he is a father son for next year correct ?
is he a KPF ? where would he go in the draft if it next year if no father son ?

James Stewart is F/S next year. Correct. KPF. Around 195cm so good height.
Next year if not F/S then at this early stage 10-15 would be around where he might be taken. Unless he has a poor season likely will cost us our 1st rounder.
Talent is there, but will take time - still skinny.
Will be a good get.

He looked really comfortable in front of goal in that Geelong prelim under extreme pressure in a close game. Marty has said in the past he plays Didaks role back home, perhaps high half forward/mid is the go if Bucks sees him there.

I'd like to see Marty play as an attacking wingman also. His ability to weight his kicks is as good as any and having him deliver to our forwards will be a pleasure to watch. More than has the endurance to run in there. Just needs to learn how to.
Has the heart of a forward so I don't think he would look out of place in a forward flank either.
But has had success down back in the past so no reason why he can't slot onto a back flank if needed either.

 

[Knightmare]

Could Nathan Brown take the Leigh Brown role? We don't have a ready made replacement for that position and it usually takes 2 years to recover completely from an ACL, would he be any chance at a forward role/pinch hitting in the ruck?

Really worry about N.Brown's durability.

Wouldn't risk it. Particularly because it is those knees.

Often those talls as key defenders often have the best durability and go on to have the longest careers - look at Fletcher and Scarlett and how they both are still going so strongly.

Would just keep him as a key defender. Firstly for durability but secondly because he can play the position to such a high level, and in big games.

 

[Number 10]

**** Malthouse just said that he sees Witts as the next Cox/Sandilands.

Reckons Marty isn't the best of the 3 Irish players (not a blight on Marty though).

Also loves Young and thinks when his mind developes he will be a very good player.

 

[TheFreshBanana]

3 Irish Players? Marty, Mooney and who else?

Agree with Young, his first game had much to be excited about.

 

[Shade]

3 Irish Players? Marty, Mooney and who else?

Agree with Young, his first game had much to be excited about.

Cribbin is irish i think

 

[Hotpiescoldbeers]

3 Irish Players? Marty, Mooney and who else?

Agree with Young, his first game had much to be excited about.

Paul cribbin whose currently on our rookie list, judging by his season MM is hinting mooney is the best of the 3

 

[TheFreshBanana]

Cribbin is irish i think

Oh yep your right. Very excited to see all three play together. Sh*t hope they become the next triple threat, a better version of Betts, Garlett and Yarran.

 

[Knightmare]

Yeah that makes good sense, so who do you see in the L Brown role? I only see Ceglar long term but nobody next year, Wood is a number 1 ruck, so is Witts who is also too young. Is is Keeffe?

There aren't any great options for the no.2 ruck role.

Wood can't play forward - doesn't tackle. Inconsistant mark o/h and doesn't crash packs.
If he plays with Jolly would force Jolly to play as no.2 ruck because he is a less bad forward, but still Wood as a no.1 ruck is still a downgrade.

Would say to Keeffe - learn this role over the summer, put on another 5-6kg and the position is yours. Would need to increase endurance also as well as ability to mark overhead around the ground. But probably is the least bad option at this stage.

Ceglar is also developing ok. Still a while away but I'd expect him to receive a chance next season and play a few games in that no.2 ruck role. Would be my backup option I'd look at if Keeffe doesn't develop into the role.

Witts while the club is talking about playing him, I'd stick to developing him in the VFL while he builds up his durability - even at his size is at risk of injury if played at AFL level and really need to make sure his body can hold up before he receives opportunity.

 

[TheFreshBanana]

I see Jolly or Witts to play 2nd ruck.

Wood will take 1st and Jolly will play 2nd, and Jolly will spend more time up forward next year. The only problem I see is Wood's inability to be decent around the ground. Does anyone know how well Wood's endurance is? Maybe he could just run with the other ruckman or something....