Kreuzer or Jacobs

[forwardflanker]

In spite of Jacobs huge 2012 many Carlton supporters are still trying to argue that he is not a better ruck than Kreuzer and as a result would not get a game for them.

My own view is that Jacobs was the clear best ruck in the AFL in 2012 and should have been all Australian. Carlton supporters point to the fact that whilst dominant as a tap ruckman Jacobs is not great round the ground. Personally I think this undersells Jacobs a lot and think he is at least competent with ball in hand. Additionally, of the top my head, I can think of at least 6-7 better rucks than Kreuzer playing AFL so don't really understand how it can ber argued that Kreuzer is better. Anyway it will interesting to see what everyone else thinks.

 

[juss]

Jacobs would obviously get a game at Carlton no doubt and is currently a better player than Kruezer but based on age, upside and versatility I'd take Kruezer comfortably for the remainder of their careers.

 

[Schulzenfest]

If we started a poll every time a Carlton supporter said something stupid, the Internet would break.

 

[raymagoo]

Jacobs at the moment, hopefully kreuzer comes through in a few years

 

[BlueJet]

If we started a poll every time a Carlton supporter said something stupid, the Internet would break.

Sad but true..

Jacobs is clearly better atm and has benefited from getting a consistent game for the crows.
Kreuzer need to step up his ruckwork as it isn't great. He is pretty young though so still has time to realise his potential.

 

[Gone Critical]

Kruezer is a fantastic competitor who gives you everything he has. Still he seems a little undersized and isn't highly rated in the traditional ruck skills i.e. tapwork, marking. For his size he is a wonderful "ruckrover" but ultimately that may not be enough to propel him past Jacobs. He has been ask to shoulder a big load early and his body is a worry for such a young ruckman.

For those reasons i voted Jacobs now and probably in the future also.

 

[Weiterbot23]

Jacobs is an awesome tap ruck was shattered when he left as I was certain he would turn out to be as good as he is now.

Still think kreuz has more up size and will be much more valuable around the ground in coming years which will see him a better player than Jacobs.


Crows aren't innocent of giving away gun ruck either after marics year..

 

[BUTTON 92]

Jacobs would obviously get a game at Carlton no doubt and is currently a better player than Kruezer but based on age, upside and versatility I'd take Kruezer comfortably for the remainder of their careers.

Kreuzer 23, Jacobs 24. Poor argument...

 

[forwardflanker]

Kreuzer 23, Jacobs 24. Poor argument...

I know I think it's embarrassing how much denial there is by Carlton supporters over this. I've even heard quite a few of them arguing that Jacobs wouldn't get a game for them if he were still there because he'd still be behind Hampson and Kreuzer. Has to be one of the biggest trading blunders in recent years imo

 

[Elite Master]

You'd think Kreuzer should be the better player but he really isn't. I don't even understand how he was allocated as a #1 draft pick. He is very slow, lacks flexibility and isn't even effective in the ruck. He can't play forward either. Jacobs might not be the most fancy talented ruckmen out there, but he does everything asked of him very well. It was criminal that he didn't get AA this year, was clearly the best ruckmen. Anyway, right now Jacobs is better no question.

 

[Monkey King]

I know I think it's embarrassing how much denial there is by Carlton supporters over this. I've even heard quite a few of them arguing that Jacobs wouldn't get a game for them if he were still there because he'd still be behind Hampson and Kreuzer. Has to be one of the biggest trading blunders in recent years imo

You're a shocking troll big fella. As a trading "blunder" it's non-existent. The Blues didn't want Jacobs to go and they wanted to get more for him than they did; he wanted to go back to Adelaide and threatened the PSD route if we didn't trade with the Crows. While the Blues hadn't spotted his talent when no one else did when they drafted him, it was obvious to most all by the time he disassembled Mummy in the Elimination Final; his last game in Navy Blue. I'm guessing though that this year is probably the first you'd heard of him given your superficial knowledge on the game.

Meanwhile, I think you've skewed what some of those posters were saying, which is that Jacobs wouldn't improve Carlton's best 22, the team as a unit, given he's fairly one dimensional. I don't agree with this myself and think he'd be better to have running around than Hammer or Warnock thus far. I do get their logic though, but it discounts actual reality. Still, I wouldn't swap Kreuzer for quids. Had had a few games where he's shown a level of dominance Sauce never has. Was amazingly durable before doing his knee, now if he can just get that right he'll make this poll look like the one voting McLean the best young midfielder of his era.

 

[forwardflanker]

You're a shocking troll big fella. As a trading "blunder" it's non-existent. The Blues didn't want Jacobs to go and they wanted to get more for him than they did; he wanted to go back to Adelaide and threatened the PSD route if we didn't trade with the Crows. While the Blues hadn't spotted his talent when no one else did when they drafted him, it was obvious to most all by the time he disassembled Mummy in the Elimination Final; his last game in Navy Blue. I'm guessing though that this year is probably the first you'd heard of him given your superficial knowledge on the game.

Meanwhile, I think you've skewed what some of those posters were saying, which is that Jacobs wouldn't improve Carlton's best 22, the team as a unit, given he's fairly one dimensional. I don't agree with this myself and think he'd be better to have running around than Hammer or Warnock thus far. I do get their logic though, but it discounts actual reality. Still, I wouldn't swap Kreuzer for quids. Had had a few games where he's shown a level of dominance Sauce never has. Was amazingly durable before doing his knee, now if he can just get that right he'll make this poll look like the one voting McLean the best young midfielder of his era.

Your just another Carlton supporter brandishing the troll card whenever anyone makes a post critical of your football club.

How isn't it a trade blunder? This is exactly the type of denial I was talking about in my previous post.
As a player your club treated him poorly, he subsequently wanted to go home and despite his obvious talent you let him leave for chips. It was horrible mismanagement on all levels and not the sort of thing that a top club would allow to happen.

 

[Monkey King]

Your just another Carlton supporter brandishing the troll card whenever anyone makes a post critical of your football club.

Sure pal. Whenever anyone points out your bullshit you play this hard done by card. I can take any reasoned criticism of Carlton, but you just make shit up. And again with the claim Carlton treated him poorly. Well Sammy sure didn't feel this way, so I'm not sure why you feel your opinion outweighs that of the man himself. And this is why I call you a troll. This junk belongs on the Bay, not the Polls Board.

How isn't it a trade blunder?

It infers Carlton traded him out when they didn't; he walked. Wasn't Carlton's decision.

How the hell does that come under the banner trade blunder?

I even saw you say in one thread it was a recruiting and development blunder, despite us recruiting him as a rookie when everyone else passed him over and then developing him into an AFL level ruckman. You have a very unrealistic viewpoint of the situation.

I guess you think Geelong made a trade blunder with Ablett too

 

[Weiterbot23]

Sure pal. Whenever anyone points out your bullshit you play this hard done by card. I can take any reasoned criticism of Carlton, but you just make shit up. And again with the claim Carlton treated him poorly. Well Sammy sure didn't feel this way, so I'm not sure why you feel your opinion outweighs that of the man himself. And this is why I call you a troll. This junk belongs on the Bay, not the Polls Board.


It infers Carlton traded him out when they didn't; he walked. Wasn't Carlton's decision.

How the hell does that come under the banner trade blunder?

I even saw you say in one thread it was a recruiting and development blunder, despite us recruiting him as a rookie when everyone else passed him over and then developing him into an AFL level ruckman. You have a very unrealistic viewpoint of the situation.

I guess you think Geelong made a trade blunder with Ablett too

 

[Schulzenfest]

Had had a few games where he's shown a level of dominance Sauce never has.

You do realize Jacobs holds the record for most hit-outs in a game, right?

Jacobs wasn't so much a 'trade blunder', because Carlton didn't chose to play him. But not playing him more when he was at Carlton was a selection blunder that ended up costing you a guy who should've been an All-Australian ruckman this year.

 

[Monkey King]

You do realize Jacobs holds the record for most hit-outs in a game, right?

Wow! Hit-outs you say? Is that your definitive measure of dominance? And who was that against? Matthew Lobbe? Mate, I've seen Warnock have over 40 hit-outs and not really be a dominant player. Jacobs could have the top 3 records for hit-outs, that doesn't impact on my comment one little bit.

Jacobs wasn't so much a 'trade blunder', because Carlton didn't chose to play him. But not playing him more when he was at Carlton was a selection blunder that ended up costing you a guy who should've been an All-Australian ruckman this year.

Firstly, yes, it was not a trading blunder. But selection blunder by not playing him enough? Not sure how you can say this. Sauce played 13 games in his last season with Carlton as a 22yo; only 6 less than his first season with the Crows. He was injured for part of the year, had three other ruckmen to compete with and it wasn't like he was performing to a level above them. How is that a selection blunder? Why was no one saying this at the time?

Of course, because this is a retrospective concept, based purely on what happened a couple of years down the track and no further. There was no selection blunder. Sammy was elevated from the rookie list and given his fair shot as a young ruck. The Crows offered him the chance to go home to a list where more opportunity existed and he took it, despite the Blues making it clear he was a wanted player. And good on him for becoming the player he has. I can't really see what Carlton did wrong here, but I do get you all want to point the finger, being finger pointers and all.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Wow! Hit-outs you say? Is that your definitive measure of dominance?

We're talking about ruckmen here, aren't we? Sam Jacobs' performance in ruck contests in that game achieved a level of dominance that no ruckman EVER has matched, let alone Matthew Kreuzer.

And who was that against? Matthew Lobbe?

Lobbe's a bit of a spud, but he's played about 25 games and nobody else managed to set the world record for hitouts against him.

Mate, I've seen Warnock have over 40 hit-outs and not really be a dominant player.

Have you seen him have over 60?

How is that a selection blunder? Why was no one saying this at the time?

I was. It was hilarious seeing Carlton supporters act like Jacobs was their fourth choice ruckman and they won't miss him when he's now comfortably outperforming all of your ruckmen. It's still hilarious that you picked Hampson over him a few times

Of course, because this is a retrospective concept, based purely on what happened a couple of years down the track and no further.

It's not a retrospective concept. Myself and plenty of others said the same thing when he decided to leave, and time has proven us right and the collective wisdom of Carlton supporters to be, as usual, wrong.

 

[Monkey King]

We're talking about ruckmen here, aren't we? Sam Jacobs' performance in ruck contests in that game achieved a level of dominance that no ruckman EVER has matched, let alone Matthew Kreuzer.

In hit-outs. And that's all you're talking about.

Are you seriously trying to say that Jacobs had the most dominant game ever seen from any ruckman in history? Or do you think there is more to it than counting up hitouts? I'm firmly in the latter camp and shudder at the thought process of the stat counters who would claim the former.

Lobbe's a bit of a spud, but he's played about 25 games and nobody else managed to set the world record for hitouts against him. Have you seen him have over 60?

I saw Jacbos game and like Warnock's, it wasn't all that dominant in the sense I'm talking about. That it was against a young and relatively inept ruckman made it even less impressive. But don't take this as a talk down of Sauce. I reckon the bloke is a great ruckman and should have been All Australian last season. I don't think there was anyone at Carlton who wanted to see him leave.

It's not a retrospective concept. Myself and plenty of others said the same thing when he decided to leave, and time has proven us right and the collective wisdom of Carlton supporters to be, as usual, wrong.

Aren't you a hero and all that; give yourself a big pat on the back

But sorry mate, claiming Sauce as a selection blunder is purely retrospective. Particularly as you said Carlton should have played him more, when he actually played as many or more games than any other Carlton ruckman in his final year and was injured for part of the season.

Granted, at the time he walked to the Crows, there were some Carlton supporters satiating themselves by saying he was the 4th best ruckman, when actually he was 2nd-3rd best at the time and sure there were those trying to poke Carlton claiming he was the best. I'm not interested in that at all though. When Sauce wasn't being selected no one was claiming it as a blunder.

Not sure why you can't accept, like Blues fans did, that the bloke just wanted to go home, to a club that offered him the chance and where he could get more guaranteed chances. I say it again, not sure what Carlton are meant to have done wrong here. And you have hardly been able to describe what it is either. All I see is self congratulatory waffle and finger pointing.

 

[Schulzenfest]

In hit-outs. And that's all you're talking about.

In terms of pure ruckwork, Sam Jacobs played arguably the most dominant game that a ruckman has ever played at AFL level. Kreuzer has never done anything that impressive.

I saw Jacbos game and like Warnock's, it wasn't all that dominant.

He had 49 more hitouts than his opponent! He had more hitouts to advantage than his opponent had hitouts!

But sorry mate, claiming Sauce as a selection blunder is purely retrospective.

Oh god, I can't believe I'm having this conversation again

It's not a retrospective call. It's a call that myself and many others made at the time, and it's a call that time proved right. There's nothing 'retrospective' about saying something at the time that turns out to be correct. I bet on Sydney to win the Grand Final, Sydney did win the Grand Final, was that a 'retrospective call'?

When Sauce wasn't being selected no one was claiming it as a blunder.

Yes, many people were, as much as it pains you to admit that Carlton are fallible.

Not sure why you can't accept, like Blues fans did, that the bloke just wanted to go home, to a club that offered him the chance and where he could get more guaranteed chances.

Sam Jacobs wins more hitouts than any other ruckman in history has? Nothing special. I say something at the time which turns out to be right, you call it a hindsight call. And you say I have trouble accepting things

 

[Monkey King]

In terms of pure ruckwork, Sam Jacobs played arguably the most dominant game that a ruckman has ever played at AFL level.

I notice you have now refined your comment to "in terms of pure ruckwork". Sorry pal, but that wasn't what I was talking about; and given you've chosen to counter my comment, there is no point shifting the context from a ruckman dominating a game, to "in terms of pure ruckwork". I can't really be bothered discussing it with you when you pull crap like this.

Sam Jacobs wins more hitouts than any other ruckman in history has? Nothing special. I say something at the time which turns out to be right, you call it a hindsight call. And you say I have trouble accepting things

Pfft! You started off in this thread by saying Carlton blundered in not giving Sauce more games when at 22yo he played as many games as any other ruckman on the list. Hell! Is this what you said at the time too? It's not even accurate. So what did you say at the time exactly then? What time and what words? I think it's time you go and fetch some quotes and links for me to assess both your claims and how it matches up to what was happening at the time, coz you talk and awful load of crap sometimes.

Sam didn't leave because he wasn't getting games. He left because he wanted to go home and because the Crows list offered him less competition. What were the Blues meant to do? Delist all the other ruckmen? Give him games not based on merit? Hell, I still rate Kreuzer a better player on potential. I hope he gets as a clean run without injury as Jacobs has had.

At the Blues Sauce got games on merit and he knew it. He wasn't performing on another level to the other ruckmen at the time and the only selection blunder I recall was when they dropped him for the a game at Subi in favour of Hammer, in concern of his ability to match it with Cox and NicNat in the wide spaces of Subi. I got the logic, but thought it was unfair.

 

[Schulzenfest]

I notice you have now refined your comment to "in terms of pure ruckwork". Sorry pal, but that wasn't what I was talking about; and given you've chosen to counter my comment, there is no point shifting the context from a ruckman dominating a game, to "in terms of pure ruckwork". I can't really be bothered discussing it with you when you pull crap like this.

So you think Kreuzer has played games in which he was more dominant than Jacobs in the game in which he was awarded the Showdown medal, broke the AFL record for hitouts and had more hitouts to advantage than his opposing number had hitouts full-stop?

Pfft! You started off in this thread by saying Carlton blundered in not giving Sauce more games when at 22yo he played as many games as any other ruckman on the list.

He shouldn't have played 'as many games' as Hampson and Warnock, he should have played more games.

I think it's time you go and fetch some quotes and links for me to assess both your claims and how it matches up to what was happening at the time, coz you talk and awful load of crap sometimes.

Feel free to find any of the threads about the trade on your board or the D&T board. I nearly got banned from the Carlton board for suggesting that Jacobs was better than Hampson

 

[Weiterbot23]

So basically this thread is here to say Carlton are so stupid for identifying Jacobs as a rookie and developing him into a gun ruck. Then letting him go home and not being unreasonable in demanding pick 14 from Adelaide when it's obvious that's what he was worth and accepting 33 instead of forcing him into the psd???



And that Adelaide are awesome at identifying ruck ability, even though they got f@ck all for maric??

 

[Monkey King]

So you think Kreuzer has played games in which he was more dominant than Jacobs in the game in which he was awarded the Showdown medal, broke the AFL record for hitouts and had more hitouts to advantage than his opposing number had hitouts full-stop?

Yes. And against better opposition to boot. There's a lot more to having a dominant game than getting a shit load of hitouts against an average opponent. It's football dude, not hitball

He shouldn't have played 'as many games' as Hampson and Warnock, he should have played more games.

Err ... but he did mate. More from you here. Reverse engineered waffle in hope!

But nonetheless, Sauce was fresh off the rookie list in the beginning of the year and wasn't really performing at a level above them either. The Blues were a finals team and both Warnock and Hammer were hitting the scoreboard whereas Jacobs wasn't showing much anywhere other than in the ruck. You don't give a guy games on the basis of fear he's going to return to his home state, you try to pick the guys who will give you the best chance of winning games of footy and there really wasn't a lot in it like you're pretending now.

Sammy actually had a fair run but realised competition was fierce at the Blues for ruck spots. Hell, even this trade period posters were suggesting we were so strong in the ruck area we should trade another one off. And most importantly, there is not the slightest indication he would have stayed if they throw him a few more games. Sammy saw a two-fold opportunity, to go home and get more guaranteed game time and he took it. Again. What was it Carlton did wrong exactly?

Feel free to find any of the threads about the trade on your board or the D&T board. I nearly got banned from the Carlton board for suggesting that Jacobs was better than Hampson

No no no. I'm not talking about jumping in for a troll after Sammy decided to go home. Where were your complaints that Jacobs wasn't getting selected in the rounds he wasn't? And what was your reasoning at the time? Not up to me to go find them; you made the claim ... **** or GTFO!

 

[Monkey King]

So basically this thread is here to say Carlton are so stupid for identifying Jacobs as a rookie and developing him into a gun ruck. Then letting him go home and not being unreasonable in demanding pick 14 from Adelaide when it's obvious that's what he was worth and accepting 33 instead of forcing him into the psd???

Nah; forwardflanker will tell you that was an example of poor recruiting and developing in itself. That's the thing with these blokes out for a pot at the Blues, they'll have a go about anything, even if they have to invent it.

Apparently as I see it, Carlton were stupid for not gifting Sauce games on the basis of precognized awareness of his future All Australian form, in the hope they he may stay in the unfortold event of him leaving; and in the process put winning games of football and making finals to the side. And all this on the back of one season while Carlton's ruckmen all struggled with injury. What a blunder by Carlton

 

[Schulzenfest]

Yes.

Lol. So much denial.

Err ... but he did mate.

The fact that there was a single game in which Shaun Hampson was playing AFL and Sam Jacobs was playing VFL is a selection blunder. The fact that it happened multiple times makes it worse.

No no no. I'm not talking about jumping in for a troll after Sammy decided to go home. Where were your complaints that Jacobs wasn't getting selected in the rounds he wasn't? And what was your reasoning at the time? Not up to me to go find them; you made the claim ... **** or GTFO!

Mate, I don't spend all my time on BF discussing every little selection decision other clubs make that I disagree with. I only weighed into the argument when I saw a shitload of Carlton supporters making the laughable statement that he was your 4th best ruckman, which (funnily enough) only happened after he said he wanted out.