Draft Profile Liam Stocker

[LemmingMaster]

I think what SOS did with GWS was great as a list manager. When you compare what the Suns managed to do. (I do admit that GWS had a few more draft concessions.

People just want to bag his misses, but when starting a team from scratch, you are drafting a heap of players that have a combination of upside and position needs. Hence a few first round picks are flops. Then you have the fact he had to dodge certain players like Wingard due to them saying they wanted nothing to do with GWS.

Currently his track record with Carlton has been very solid from a list management point of view, I am certain a lot more happy with this version of a rebuild compared to the previous records. Carlton seem to finally understand we needed a complete rebuild from the ground up, not a half arsed version.

 

[Crow till I die]

I think what SOS did with GWS was great as a list manager. When you compare what the Suns managed to do. (I do admit that GWS had a few more draft concessions.

People just want to bag his misses, but when starting a team from scratch, you are drafting a heap of players that have a combination of upside and position needs. Hence a few first round picks are flops. Then you have the fact he had to dodge certain players like Wingard due to them saying they wanted nothing to do with GWS.

Currently his track record with Carlton has been very solid from a list management point of view, I am certain a lot more happy with this version of a rebuild compared to the previous records. Carlton seem to finally understand we needed a complete rebuild from the ground up, not a half arsed version.

But if you are being fair, it is hard to miss when you get something like picks 1,2,3,4,5,7,9,11,13 for 3 years running

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

But if you are being fair, it is hard to miss when you get something like picks 1,2,3,4,5,7,9,11,13 for 3 years running

That didn't actually happen though.

 

[LemmingMaster]

But if you are being fair, it is hard to miss when you get something like picks 1,2,3,4,5,7,9,11,13 for 3 years running

To be fair GCS managed to miss a few as well and not develop a well rounded team and also a team of players willing to stay. Maybe it is not as simple as it seems.

I liked the way GWS started with a heap of older 1-3 year players. They also drafted a few mature young solid midfielders with great character in Ward and Scully.

I don't know, I was just impressed with their list design.

Then when he knew a few players were not amazing, he got some value out of those players. (Pity a number of them went to Carlton before he became list manager for the Blues)

He has managed to do that again with Carlton, getting value of the Menzel before he became worthless.

 

[Crow till I die]

That didn't actually happen though.

I said something like and they were given a massive number of 1st round picks over the first few years they were in the comp. And my point still stands - it is harder to miss than hit when you have that sort of scenario

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

I said something like and they were given a massive number of 1st round picks over the first few years they were in the comp. And my point still stands - it is harder to miss than hit when you have that sort of scenario

It was nothing like that though. You're seeing it as what it would be like if my club had that number of draft picks.

We had a one off opportunity to build a list from scratch, which isn't at all comparable.

It wasn't as simple as the draft either. There's also the complexity and the difficulty of identifying talent in the under age selections without the usual data for draftees.. Even for the mini drafts we had to do the work and get them right without the usual data. So they were valued by other clubs recruiters at the table.

All this while setting up the structures and relationships between staff at a new club.

Your club operated as a virtual SANFL combined side in the early years, with Crows players training with their SA clubs at times. It was probably never ideal but we couldn't do that cis tgere was no useful AFL infrastructure or facilities in Western Sydney.

Sylvagni's job was to provide the nous to get the list build done right. In my view he did that very well.

 

[Crow till I die]

It was nothing like that though. You're seeing it as what it would be like if my club had that number of draft picks.

We had a one off opportunity to build a list from scratch, which isn't at all comparable.

It wasn't as simple as the draft either. There's also the complexity and the difficulty of identifying talent in the under age selections without the usual data for draftees.. Even for the mini drafts we had to do the work and get them right without the usual data. So they were valued by other clubs recruiters at the table.

All this while setting up the structures and relationships between staff at a new club.

Your club operated as a virtual SANFL combined side in the early years, with Crows players training with their SA clubs at times. It was probably never ideal but we couldn't do that cis tgere was no useful AFL infrastructure or facilities in Western Sydney.

Sylvagni's job was to provide the nous to get the list build done right. In my view he did that very well.

Don't get me wrong - I am not having a crack that GWS were granted a heap of 1st round picks over their 1st few seasons. What I am stating is that with those high picks, a good recruitment manager would have to try harder to miss than hit in terms of talent identification

 

[Love the Drake]

Same as Nick Graham.

trading away pick 1 (or 2) very risky business ultimately from SOS and his disciples IMHO.

A patient rebuild, or a half baked rebuild to try and help a under pressure Bolton in the short term?

Trash post. No one will know how good/bad this trade was for at least 5 years.




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[THE_GUN]

As a hypothetical, if walsh' ceiling is Joel Selwood, Lukosius ceiling is Nick Reiwoldt and Rankine's ceiling is Andrew Mcleod and they all reach that ceiling as players - who would you take?

I am a rankine Fan but with your choices i would have to say Riewoldt would be the player

This is a Stocker thread for starters but nevertheless; I'd want the player that added the most to their team.
You have listed some pretty good names there and on face value I'd say Riewoldt, but Selwood as captain did contribute to three Premiership wins for Geelong.
Macleod contributed greatly to 2 Premiership wins. Riewoldt? Zero.
Selwood is a great captain of a great side when they won the flags , How would he have gone at Richmond,Carlton,St Kilda,North or Freo ? Dont think he would be ranked alongside St Nick

Judd will arguably be seen as being the best player in his super-draft year, but did Hodge contribute more in what Hawthorn achieved through their playing years? Hard to say for more, but I'd take Hodge in this regard. Reckon that his overall positive effect upon the playing group was greater than for what Judd did for West Coast or for Carlton.

Not sure about Judd being the best player from the super draft, With the benefit of hindsight i would take Hodge , Judd was sensational in his years at west coast and was very good at Carlton But Hodge is the player that makes your team and club - Hodge also playing longer and influencing the 'New' Brisbane team i think will also play a big part in how they are remembered in time

 

[LemmingMaster]

I am a rankine Fan but with your choices i would have to say Riewoldt would be the player


Not sure about Judd being the best player from the super draft, With the benefit of hindsight i would take Hodge , Judd was sensational in his years at west coast and was very good at Carlton But Hodge is the player that makes your team and club - Hodge also playing longer and influencing the 'New' Brisbane team i think will also play a big part in how they are remembered in time

I am from WA and back then I loved Judd, still to this day I would select Judd.
As much as I also love Hodge.

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

I am a rankine Fan but with your choices i would have to say Riewoldt would be the player


Not sure about Judd being the best player from the super draft, With the benefit of hindsight i would take Hodge , Judd was sensational in his years at west coast and was very good at Carlton But Hodge is the player that makes your team and club - Hodge also playing longer and influencing the 'New' Brisbane team i think will also play a big part in how they are remembered in time

Oh dear...this thread is laughable.

 

[Monkey King]

With the benefit of hindsight i would take Hodge ...

With the benefit of hindsight I’d take Judd and manage his groin better.

 

[DangerSloane]

That didn't actually happen though.

TWENTY SEVEN top 10 picks.

TWENTY SEVEN!

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

TWENTY SEVEN top 10 picks.

TWENTY SEVEN!

BUILDING AN INITIALLIST OF 50 PLAYERS, 50.

Care to provide evidence of 27 top 10 picks anyway. I dont believe that's true.

 

[DangerSloane]

BUILDING AN INITIALLIST OF 50 PLAYERS, 50.

Care to provide evidence of 27 top 10 picks anyway. I dont believe that's true.

My apologies it was 27 first round picks.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

My apologies it was 27 first round picks.

Even so I dont believe it was.

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

My apologies it was 27 first round picks.

Not arguing this, at times our drafting has been diabolical- but is it 27 first round picks across our eight seasons in the league?

And if so, can you name them? Personally, I don't think guys like Palmer and Cornes should count if they are being used, as they came to us in completely different circumstances to the likes of Buntine, Tomlinson, O'Rourke ect.

 

[Arr0w]

On your first point whilst you are correct and there are hundreds that know their stuff and are good we dont have many on here and thats what i meant
We should not be bagging people like KM or Bishop for putting in the work to get us the info we generally wouldnt have or seek without their imput.

Regarding your point about Hughes & Sos
I dot think i need to clarify about hughes his record speaks for itself and im sure most carlton supporters would not have him back so i feel vindicated that he was a failure

SOS is currently Carltons love child and can do no wrong as was the case with others in the past but his record so far over the last 10 years is really not that great and looking at his time at the GWS with what he had he could have done alot more and had some major misses. If the GWS dont win a flag in the next 3-5 years he deserves to wear some of that.

His time at Carlton is yet to be a success and will be judged accordingly in 5 years time and will depend on if Carlton's current list rebuild is actually a build that achieves success or another false dawn.
Currently its too early due to the way he has gone about the rebuild by totally gutting the list and starting afresh unlike other teams like Bulldogs,Tigers who have done it differently. Melbourne also gutted their list many years ago and had as many top draft picks and looked like they were going to go on with it but the young talent didnt translate to success just as yet with alot of kids falling by the wayside.

SOS is not immune to criticism, while I am satisfied with who he has drafted and many of the targeted trades, I have voiced my concerns as to the list fillers such as the O'Shea, Mullett, Shaw, rather than adding kids that were still available such as Banfield and the likes. His record stacks up with the better recruiters of the completion, building a list from scratch is completely different to selecting 4-6 players in each draft. For some reason, people continue to focus on the misses, yet dismiss his hit rate

From the 2011 draft, I see only one clear miss in that 1st round, Sumner. I would suggest 10 from 11 is a great hit rate. Yes, it is easier to minimize busts with 1st round picks, but unless any other recruiter has had the same opportunities of multiple picks in one draft, it is impossible to form a comparison

1 1 Jonathon Patton Eastern Ranges TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 2 Stephen Coniglio Swan Districts WAFL Greater Western Sydney
1 3 Dom Tyson Oakleigh Chargers TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 4 Will Hoskin-Elliott Western Jets TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 5 Matt Buntine Dandenong Stingrays TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 7 Nick Haynes Dandenong Stingrays TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 9 Adam Tomlinson Oakleigh Chargers TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 10 Liam Sumner Sandringham Dragons TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 11 Toby Greene Oakleigh Chargers TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 13 Taylor Adams Geelong Falcons TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 14 Devon Smith Geelong Falcons TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney

I am staggered that you would suggest that SOS should wear some form of the blame if GWS don't win a flag in the next 5 years. Since his departure at the end of 2014, 24 players have been traded out, 19 still on an AFL list and many still strongly considered best 22

Curtly Hampton, Jacob Townsend, Jed Lamb, Andrew Phillips, Lachie Plowman, Liam Sumner, Adam Treloar, Tomas Bugg, Cam McCarthy, Jack Steele, Paul Ahern, Pat McKenna, James Stewart, Will Hoskin-Elliott, Caleb Marchbank, Jarrod Pickett, Rhys Palmer, Devon Smith, Nathan Wilson, Matthew Kennedy, Will Setterfield, Tom Scully, Rory Lobb, Dylan Shiel

Surely you are not suggesting that he is responsible for a lack of player retention, let alone development and coaching?

You are correct, it is still early to determine what SOS has delivered, in terms of a list to either be competitive or the ultimate success, the next 3 years will give us a better indication

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

SOS is not immune to criticism, while I am satisfied with who he has drafted and many of the targeted trades, I have voiced my concerns as to the list fillers such as the O'Shea, Mullett, Shaw, rather than adding kids that were still available such as Banfield and the likes. His record stacks up with the better recruiters of the completion, building a list from scratch is completely different to selecting 4-6 players in each draft. For some reason, people continue to focus on the misses, yet dismiss his hit rate

From the 2011 draft, I see only one clear miss in that 1st round, Sumner. I would suggest 10 from 11 is a great hit rate. Yes, it is easier to minimize busts with 1st round picks, but unless any other recruiter has had the same opportunities of multiple picks in one draft, it is impossible to form a comparison

1 1 Jonathon Patton Eastern Ranges TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 2 Stephen Coniglio Swan Districts WAFL Greater Western Sydney
1 3 Dom Tyson Oakleigh Chargers TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 4 Will Hoskin-Elliott Western Jets TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 5 Matt Buntine Dandenong Stingrays TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 7 Nick Haynes Dandenong Stingrays TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 9 Adam Tomlinson Oakleigh Chargers TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 10 Liam Sumner Sandringham Dragons TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 11 Toby Greene Oakleigh Chargers TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 13 Taylor Adams Geelong Falcons TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 14 Devon Smith Geelong Falcons TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney

I am staggered that you would suggest that SOS should wear some form of the blame if GWS don't win a flag in the next 5 years. Since his departure at the end of 2014, 24 players have been traded out, 19 still on an AFL list and many still strongly considered best 22

Curtly Hampton, Jacob Townsend, Jed Lamb, Andrew Phillips, Lachie Plowman, Liam Sumner, Adam Treloar, Tomas Bugg, Cam McCarthy, Jack Steele, Paul Ahern, Pat McKenna, James Stewart, Will Hoskin-Elliott, Caleb Marchbank, Jarrod Pickett, Rhys Palmer, Devon Smith, Nathan Wilson, Matthew Kennedy, Will Setterfield, Tom Scully, Rory Lobb, Dylan Shiel

Surely you are not suggesting that he is responsible for a lack of player retention, let alone development and coaching?

You are correct, it is still early to determine what SOS has delivered, in terms of a list to either be competitive or the ultimate success, the next 3 years will give us a better indication

To be fair, our Head of Recruitment for the 2011 draft was Neville Stibbard, though Silvagni was still very much apart of the team as List Manager.

 

[Arr0w]

TWENTY SEVEN top 10 picks.

TWENTY SEVEN!

You really need to do some homework, rather than guessing

While SOS was at the club
22 1st round picks, 16 of which were top 10 picks

After SOS
11 1st round picks, 3 of which were top 10 picks

Total since inception
33 1st round picks, 19 of which were top 10 picks

 

[Arr0w]

To be fair, our Head of Recruitment for the 2011 draft was Neville Stibbard, though Silvagni was still very much apart of the team as List Manager.

Even more interesting.

 

[Lore]

Funny thread. Here I was thinking it was about Liam Stocker and instead people are arguing about... 27 first round picks? To GWS?

Back on topic please folks.

 

[Toadvine]

Trash post. No one will know how good/bad this trade was for at least 5 years.




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Not sure about that. The Josh Kelly trade for Tyson and Salem was made 5 years ago and it's been obvious to everyone bar some Dee supporters that it was a bad trade on their part for a long time.

We will have a good indication by the end of the season.

 

[Marcel Proust]

you’re pushing s**t uphill if you’re trying to suggest the club hasn’t been patient through the rebuild.

may i ask you to elaborate on that point?

 

[Robertio]

Not sure about that. The Josh Kelly trade for Tyson and Salem was made 5 years ago and it's been obvious to everyone bar some Dee supporters that it was a bad trade on their part for a long time.

We will have a good indication by the end of the season.

Those two trades are completely different and you won't know at the end of the season.