Lin Jong - Where do we go to from here

[Zgope1]

Have loved Jong since the North game. Like him late 2014 early 2015 when he was showing hardness. He's finally doing that again now. He really isn't much good without ferocity and I'm glad he's showing it now

 

[maddog37]

I was glad to see Jong anywhere near the ball on the weekend. He was important in the win.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Funny how everybody seemed to love the argument that disposal numbers were irrelevant to determine Bontempelli's influence on games. Not for Jong?

Now everybody is saying that because Jong doesn't meet an arbitrary number of 20 touches per game that is somehow held against him?

It's actually a contradictory argument. Criticisms of Jong have often been directed toward his poor decision making and ball use with ball in hand, often in uncontested situations.

Surely those very arguments would see the benefit in Jong only having about 8 uncontested possessions per game? In that he's not "getting in the way" of uncontested ball movement wit his below-par disposal?

The Jong detractors are manipulating numbers to support their hatred for him both ways.

If he were to arbitrarily have 4 more pointless uncontested possessions per game by seagulling or picking up cheapies to bring his average disposal numbers to over 20 per game, that would somehow make him a a better player in the eyes of his detractors because he's reached that magical 20 disposal number.

But the same detractors would use that argument against him as 4 more uncontested possessions per game would ensure that he gets more unconested clangers or stuff up otherwise good ball movement.

There are very valid criticisms of Jong. Saying that he isn't a good player because he isn't arbitrarily getting 4 more uncontested possessions per game (which would actually be of no benefit to the team whatsoever and that would be used against him by the very same detractors) isn't one of those valid criticisms.

 

[BRWB]

Funny how everybody seemed to love the argument that disposal numbers were irrelevant to determine Bontempelli's influence on games. Not for Jong?

Now everybody is saying that because Jong doesn't meet an arbitrary number of 20 touches per game that is somehow held against him?

It's actually a contradictory argument. Criticisms of Jong have often been directed toward his poor decision making and ball use with ball in hand, often in uncontested situations.

Surely those very arguments would see the benefit in Jong only having about 8 uncontested possessions per game? In that he's not "getting in the way" of uncontested ball movement wit his below-par disposal?

The Jong detractors are manipulating numbers to support their hatred for him both ways.

If he were to arbitrarily have 4 more pointless uncontested possessions per game by seagulling or picking up cheapies to bring his average disposal numbers to over 20 per game, that would somehow make him a a better player in the eyes of his detractors because he's reached that magical 20 disposal number.

But the same detractors would use that argument against him as 4 more uncontested possessions per game would ensure that he gets more unconested clangers or stuff up otherwise good ball movement.

There are very valid criticisms of Jong. Saying that he isn't a good player because he isn't arbitrarily getting 4 more uncontested possessions per game (which would actually be of no benefit to the team whatsoever and that would be used against him by the very same detractors) isn't one of those valid criticisms.

I don't hate Jong. I have disliked many of his games though.

Your argument is again faulty. It starts from when you mention Bont and Jong together and gets worse from there.

Jong doesn't get enough of the ball to be classed as a good mid. When he does get it he doesn't use it well enough to be classed as a good mid. Simple.

To argue that Jong is doing a great job for his team by not getting the ball is nonsensical.

A good mid doesn't have to play within their limitations and not get the ball.

Does this really have to be explained?

 

[Mutt]

Numbers aside, using the famous fronkalicious eyeball test (and the repeated decisions by the Match Committee,) Jong is going ok at the moment. I'm sick of the never ending bagging of Jong by those who can't admit that the guy is justifiably and firmly entrenched in our team for good reasons. Time for me to depart this thread, probably for good. Does my head in this bullshit.

 

[BRWB]

Numbers aside, using the famous fronkalicious eyeball test (and the repeated decisions by the Match Committee,) Jong is going ok at the moment. I'm sick of the never ending bagging of Jong by those who can't admit that the guy is justifiably and firmly entrenched in our team for good reasons. Time for me to depart this thread, probably for good. Does my head in this bullshit.

Funnily enough I agree with much of what you say. Jong is going ok and he won't be dropped for obvious reasons.

Jong thread ban for me until after the first final (the Freo game, like the Essendon game, won't tell us much about him).

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I don't hate Jong. I have disliked many of his games though.

Your argument is again faulty. It starts from when you mention Bont and Jong together and gets worse from there.

Jong doesn't get enough of the ball to be classed as a good mid. When he does get it he doesn't use it well enough to be classed as a good mid. Simple.

To argue that Jong is doing a great job for his team by not getting the ball is nonsensical.

A good mid doesn't have to play within their limitations and not get the ball.

Does this really have to be explained?

But that assumes winning disposals is the be-all and end-all of being a good player. and forming the basis of using statistics to formulate an argument.

Like I said, on the previous page, nobody in the entire competition is both tackling and kicking as much goals as he as.

He's averaging almost 6 tackles per game, and almost a goal per game (8 in 9 games) since his return. Take those averages and transpose it across the entire year, (cherrypicking I know) and not a single player does both in the entire competition other than Jong. That makes him a good and valuable player.

If we're using statistics to analyse Jong, he would somehow be a better player if he won 3 or 4 or 5 more touches a game (that could otherwise have no material impact on our quality of ball movement or ability to win clearances etc.) but that had a trade-off of him laying 2 or 3 less tackles per game or kicking half as many goals? You can't cherry pick merely disposals form the basis of an overall statistical argument of Jong, because you have to give those stats context. And that context is provided by the impact of those stats against others and more advanced statistics (like AFL Player Ratings Points).

Is Jong more than solid, good depth? Probably not. I've never claimed he was. Is only averaging 16 or 17 touches good? Would Jong be a better player, holding all things even, if he won more touches? Yes, if they were contested (and 9 contested possessions is solid but not outstanding for somebody of his role). If they were uncontested, maybe, maybe not, because his disposal is iffy. But the thing is, there could be a trade off. Is 35 extra touches across the 9 games since his return better than the loss of 4 of the 8 goals he's kicked since his return? No. So I'd take his statistical output as a whole, which whilst it doesn't include a whole lot of touches (and I'm not claiming that less touches is better, just that there's diminishing returns for more touches), is found in the context of him laying a lot of tackles and kicking a lot of goals for a player of his role.

And I'm probably not explain the "not getting more uncontested possessions is a good thing" argument. I'm looking at what adds value to the team as a whole. If Jong were to average 5 more uncontested possessions a game, would that help our overall offensive ball movement and make him more valuable to the team or help us win? In some aspects yes, in other aspects, no. Yes, because sometimes he'd be getting out in space and providing an option, maybe 1 or 2 where he was better at getting into space and providing an option for say an uncontested mark rather than kicking a pack. But maybe 3 or 4 of those extra uncontested possessions would be as a result of taking away uncontested possessions from a teammates who are better ball users than he is (if he seagulled or called for the ball in bad positions). Those uncontested possessions have no impact on our ability to win.

And of course, I don't mean to say that getting less or no uncontested possessions would be better, I'm just saying above and beyond the 8 or 9 uncontested possessions he's getting anyway, what's the value of 4 or 5 more? For a player like Jong with his poor ball use, there's probably diminishing returns for every additional uncontested ball won above and beyond the 8 or 9 you'd expect him to get just from simply being on the field 80 or 90% of the time.

 

[RedWhite&Blue]

Played a blinder against the Dons.
We should definitely keep him him but if he leaves his value has shot up.

 

[LondonBulldog]

Gee talk about over analyzing.

Wally and Libba, our "hard nut" in and under players are out injured.

Jong is perfectly placed to pick up the slack. He has done a good job so far. Adds a bit of speed to break away from the packs yet can still make poor decisions. Overall though an asset to the team.

 

[King Harold]

Thanks KH. Rare as it is, guess we finally get to agree to disagree.

Watch Jong in a hot game. Watch him torch his team mates with suicide handballs (that champion data count as effective), watch him get caught with the ball, watch him pick poor options and miss them, watch him fumble in the heat and break down scoring opportunities, watch him fail to chase, watch his incredibly low production for a mid...

Really don't enjoy watching Jong kill us in tight games KH. Sorry if that seems silly.

Watch some of Dal's hot little dinky handballs and kicks ---- he is by far the worst offender .
But no one would say we don't want him around ----- and before you jump on me I'm not comparing Jong's worth against Dal.
Have no problem with you , MD , fronk , or anyone else believing we are better off with out him , but when he plays well like he did Sunday or in a tight final with plenty of heat against Adelaide --- just say so ! No matter how you look at it his game was good Sunday .

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Watch some of Dal's hot little dinky handballs and kicks ---- he is by far the worst offender .
But no one would say we don't want him around ----- and before you jump on me I'm not comparing Jong's worth against Dal.
Have no problem with you , MD , fronk , or anyone else believing we are better off with out him , but when he plays well like he did Sunday or in a tight final with plenty of heat against Adelaide --- just say so ! No matter how you look at it his game was good Sunday .

and the week before too!

 

[yebiga]

games per season
2012 - 4, 2014 - 6, 2015 - 13, 2016 - 14+
Goals Per Game Average per season
0.25, 0.5, 0.61, 0.92
Dream Team 2012/14/15/16
57, 51, 66, 74
Disposal
17, 12, 15, 17
tackle averages
1,4,5,5
I don't know the contested possession numbers, hard ball gets, contested marking etc season on season.

However, there is enough here to show where he is at and where he needs to get.

Goals - at 0.92 he is close to a goal a game - for a midfielder that is very good to elite
Disposals at 17 - even with a high proportion of contested possession is still too low - needs to get to 20+ maybe 22+ to be a lock in the side
Tackles - at 5 - already very good - it is an area where his physical attributes should enable him to increase this to 6 or 7 - again this would be elite
Score involvements are healthy and contested possessions as you would expect are pretty good.

He is flying for a lot more marks but not quite hanging onto them. With his elite leap, it is an area where a small improvement could have a dramatic impact on his game. Clunk a couple of those marks a game and his value to a team not great at contested marking is significant.

In short, we have a guy who has come from a long way back and is offering something very close now to a standard where he can retain a 22 spot. If his rate of improvement continues - having only played 37 games - there is every reason to expect another 10-20% improvement, then we may have something here which more than just in the 22 and a depth player.

 

[Mattdougie]

He is playing ONLY due to injuries FACT.

Full strength he is back where he belongs in the VFL so make every argument you want and throw every stay at it you want he is at best depth you cal on 3/4 times a year against garbage teams to give best 22 blokes a rest.

Now people are saying he is better than Wallis, Ziebull and Mundy?? And people think I talk Sh!t!

 

[adsum]

He is playing ONLY due to injuries FACT.

Full strength he is back where he belongs in the VFL so make every argument you want and throw every stay at it you want he is at best depth you cal on 3/4 times a year against garbage teams to give best 22 blokes a rest...

FACT is, right now, he is in our best available 22 and that's what matters. Are you saying he shouldn't be picked to play against Freo?

 

[Struggle]

Was in the negative for metres gained. Clearly did more for the Bombers than us. Drop him to never return

 

[BatteredBulldog]

Best post I hav

Funny how everybody seemed to love the argument that disposal numbers were irrelevant to determine Bontempelli's influence on games. Not for Jong?

Now everybody is saying that because Jong doesn't meet an arbitrary number of 20 touches per game that is somehow held against him?

It's actually a contradictory argument. Criticisms of Jong have often been directed toward his poor decision making and ball use with ball in hand, often in uncontested situations.

Surely those very arguments would see the benefit in Jong only having about 8 uncontested possessions per game? In that he's not "getting in the way" of uncontested ball movement wit his below-par disposal?

The Jong detractors are manipulating numbers to support their hatred for him both ways.

If he were to arbitrarily have 4 more pointless uncontested possessions per game by seagulling or picking up cheapies to bring his average disposal numbers to over 20 per game, that would somehow make him a a better player in the eyes of his detractors because he's reached that magical 20 disposal number.

But the same detractors would use that argument against him as 4 more uncontested possessions per game would ensure that he gets more unconested clangers or stuff up otherwise good ball movement.

There are very valid criticisms of Jong. Saying that he isn't a good player because he isn't arbitrarily getting 4 more uncontested possessions per game (which would actually be of no benefit to the team whatsoever and that would be used against him by the very same detractors) isn't one of those valid criticisms.

Best post I have read in a while. Well done!

 

[andymish1980]

He is playing ONLY due to injuries FACT.

Full strength he is back where he belongs in the VFL so make every argument you want and throw every stay at it you want he is at best depth you cal on 3/4 times a year against garbage teams to give best 22 blokes a rest.

Now people are saying he is better than Wallis, Ziebull and Mundy?? And people think I talk Sh!t!

And very club has a "full strength side" from Mar till Sep HAHAHAHA

 

[King Harold]

He is playing ONLY due to injuries FACT.

Full strength he is back where he belongs in the VFL so make every argument you want and throw every stay at it you want he is at best depth you cal on 3/4 times a year against garbage teams to give best 22 blokes a rest.

Now people are saying he is better than Wallis, Ziebull and Mundy?? And people think I talk Sh!t!

Here in lies the argument , you and others think he is rubbish depth , and others think he is good depth ( including me )
so we all agree , depth no matter how you look at it ?
See we are really all in agreement , now what have you got happening this week end

 

[Mattdougie]

Here in lies the argument , you and others think he is rubbish depth , and others think he is good depth ( including me )
so we all agree , depth no matter how you look at it ?
See we are really all in agreement , now what have you got happening this week end

Going to watch Footscray Saturday and mates are playing in local footy Sunday

 

[dergert]

I hope we keep one of either jong, Stevens or hrovat. I'd rather keep Stevens and hrovat ahead of jong at this stage, however I'm just a couch supporter. I will admit he did some arsey stuff on Sunday.

 

[stefoid]

Gee talk about over analyzing.

Wally and Libba, our "hard nut" in and under players are out injured.

Jong is perfectly placed to pick up the slack. He has done a good job so far. Adds a bit of speed to break away from the packs yet can still make poor decisions. Overall though an asset to the team.

yeah, 'first hands' is a role that suits his skillset.

17 contested, 4 uncontested, 7 tackles and a goal is about the perfect mix for Jong - it implies a good solid positive contribution with minimal collateral damage.

 

[Metal]

Since Libba and Wally have gone down, Jong has been asked to play a different role which is in and under with the bigger body. That role of getting the ball out (the extractor role), whilst shared around, was best left to Libba, and last year, Wallis. So Jong has had to sit on the outside and go when the opportunity arose, but not at the expense of having too many ball hunting. Jong has also been picked as a half forward which can be a twilight zone some days where it is hard to get a kick.

POSITIONS played over a season therefore affect statistics. Injuries and returning from injuries affect statistics. A tank that is still developing affects statistics. When we play Jong in the guts for longer periods of time, he gets more contested possessions and has more involvements. That's a natural consequence of the position he is playing. When he is a deep forward target, for example, he may get no kicks because of the way the ball comes in or doesn't come in.

Jong has been building his tank. If you consider that he has only played the equivalent of 2 years of senior footy, it's not unexpected that his tank is still at the immature stage and that he may find it difficult to cope with the physical demands of full time AFL footy week after week. Hence he has not been able to sustain playing a lot in the middle and when he did he was not finely tuned (injury interrupted seasons).

The idea that he run hard both ways when he is playing outside and then be expected to give his all when playing inside is just a little unrealistic. Similar criticisms were made of Cooney, that he wasn't defensive enough. I just think it's a stage in his development that will take a year or 2 to improve.

Jong is a young, developing player. Let's not forget that when we talk statistics.

 

[Scenester]

It would be a shame if the dogs won the premiership this year with Lin in the team, because obviously the victory would be forever tainted by his presence, and we wouldn't be able to celebrate the first premiership in 62 years because some would be too busy repeating ad nauseam that they've never seen a worse AFL player in their life (despite some interesting facts that people have been recently posting re: his stats for this year (most tackles and goals of any player for the season, for example)) and others would be too busy defending him.

And imagine when the team lists came out in grand final week and Lin was named .... no doubt the old 'we never win games with Jong in the team' would be instantly rolled out.

And then, hopefully he'd win the Norm Smith Medal too, just so that we can have the pride of knowing that one of our players is the worst Norm Smith medallist of all time.

It's amazing that Collingwood (and maybe some other teams too) are interested in acquiring the services of such an utterly useless player.

 

[Mattdougie]

It would be a shame if the dogs won the premiership this year with Lin in the team, because obviously the victory would be forever tainted by his presence, and we wouldn't be able to celebrate the first premiership in 62 years because some would be too busy repeating ad nauseam that they've never seen a worse AFL player in their life (despite some interesting facts that people have been recently posting re: his stats for this year (most tackles and goals of any player for the season, for example)) and others would be too busy defending him.

And imagine when the team lists came out in grand final week and Lin was named .... no doubt the old 'we never win games with Jong in the team' would be instantly rolled out.

And then, hopefully he'd win the Norm Smith Medal too, just so that we can have the pride of knowing that one of our players is the worst Norm Smith medallist of all time.

It's amazing that Collingwood (and maybe some other teams too) are interested in acquiring the services of such an utterly useless player.

Haha OK if we even make a grand final with this potato in the team I will get his name and face full back tattoo

Save this I won't renege on it.

More chance me finding 25 supermodels naked waiting for me in bed when I get home.

Seriously the delusion of some people on here is staggering.

Now he is winning Norm Smith???

Haha HAS HE EVER BEEN BEST ON GROUND ??? Lol wow

 

[NBates]

Sen just said he's gawn to Collingwood

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