List Cloggers

[Jetwa5h]

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/afl/thestars/index.php/heraldsun/comments/clog_and_dagger/

As per the above story about players list clogging got me thinking
a.Who is clogging our list:
b.Was their anyone of value at other clubs that
might be considered a list clogger for trade purposes?


a. At present I personally consider Jericho,Basset, Macgregor, Edwards, Shirley, Doughty to be list cloggers I do however understand that they cannot all go at ounce and at present have a role to play, but does anyone actually see them in our next premiership team?

b. Of that list by Gary Lyon if it was accurate (Probably not) I would have thought that someone like Mcphee(Mid 20's correct me if I am wrong) would slot quite nicely into our backline as a replacement for Bass in the short term.

Thoughts

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Garry Lyon, with that one article, has completed the transition from player to ex-player.

It often takes several years as recent retirees strive to retain the respect of current players, to still be "one of the boys" and try to resist becoming part of the "machine" that is football media.

There are five stages people go through. As you can see, Lyon has now progressed to Stage 2.

Stage 1: Defend players at every opportunity, talk down their indiscretions and continue the battle vs the media (ie Glen Archer).
Stage 2: Become one with the football media you once criticised (ie Garry Lyon).
Stage 3: "Back in my day..." (ie Sam Newman).
Stage 4: I've seen it all therefore I have the answer to everything (ie Ian Chappell).
Stage 5: Everything with the current game is completely wrong and all the players, coaches and administrators are ____ed (ie Neil Harvey).

 

[Sparno17]

At the moment i see jericho, mcgregor, biglands, and shirley to be list cloggers

No need for comment on mcgregor really. Jericho will never be a superstar. He could be a solid contributer but what can a young draft prospect provide for us at the moment that he can't?

Shirley will struggle to maintain his spot next year with the improvment of Mackay, Otten and the entrance of Dangerfield into the side. I expect VB and or Gallman (if he gets his body right) to take on the defensive mid role in time. Unfortunate as he is a good servant.

I have this irking feeling that the club could 'do an obst' with gallman and move him along if he does not do big things in the second half of the year. He is primarly a defender, but with good attention and coaching could become a stopper no worse than what shirley provides us. However after playing with him, i find it hard to see him move away from defensive into the guts. He should be retained.

Biglands and Basset should retire come years end. Biglands will struggle to overtake our up and coming ruckman. His retirement will require us to invest in another ruckman come draft day. Losing him leaves us one short of 'pure' ruckman imo.

I believe edwards is in the same boat as Peter Bell. He has done enough for the club to go out on his terms. If he wants another year and believes he can provide the club a good service, he should get one. Our list has been rejuvinated to the extent to allow this luxury. He must make realise though that match selection is made on the best 22 available. I can see him slipping out of our best 22 in the next 12-18months. I would hate to see the end or his career become a slow drift onto the sidelines.

Doughty has performed beyond expectation this year and will be retained.

Massie is an excellent depth player. He has worked hard for his current standing on our list. Youth is all well and good but we will need mass as a backup as our kids develop (in leaps and bounds i am sure). He provides a mature defensive body.

Then there is Campbell. I can see it going either way for him. I hope he does a porplyzia and breaks out. In all reality, will otten and danger be to far ahead of him next year? Add to that the pressure of four (ish) new draftees and the potential elevation of Patrenko. If Edwards retires this year, he will be kept for sure as we cannot have back to back player clearouts.

The most interesting one is Gill. He has alot of upside but has struggled with injury. Long term we hope that Sellar becomes the player we dream about. If we get rid of McGregor, we have an awkward two year gap where Tippet and Hentschel maintain to be our key forwards with Walker in the wings. Support provided from Burton and Goodwin. IMO we need to keep Gill on the list. If injury hits us, we will lack KPF depth.

 

[fryingpan]

List Cloggers: Biglands, McGregor, Jericho, Campbell, Gill

 

[Deaneus!]

Stage 1: Defend players at every opportunity, talk down their indiscretions and continue the battle vs the media (ie Glen Archer).
Stage 2: Become one with the football media you once criticised (ie Garry Lyon).
Stage 3: "Back in my day..." (ie Sam Newman).
Stage 4: I've seen it all therefore I have the answer to everything (ie Ian Chappell).
Stage 5: Everything with the current game is completely wrong and all the players, coaches and administrators are ____ed (ie Neil Harvey).

ROFL

For that, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

For that, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness.

So I got that going for me... which is nice.

 

[Damp Squarie]

Bassett,Biglands,Massie,Shirley & McGregor...in that order.

Ive reluctantly put Kenny in there because I think, like Perrie, he still can offer this club something.
Unfortunately, he wont get too many opportunities with Hentschel, Sellar, Walker,Gill etc so trading him may be our best option.

Edwards and Jericho would be on the borderline.

 

[Crow-mo]

so a (dubious) idea for article becomes gospel, and then instantly becomes applicable to all of our whipping boys?

please...

 

[marvin]

Garry Lyon, with that one article, has completed the transition from player to ex-player.

It often takes several years as recent retirees strive to retain the respect of current players, to still be "one of the boys" and try to resist becoming part of the "machine" that is football media.

There are five stages people go through. As you can see, Lyon has now progressed to Stage 2.

Stage 1: Defend players at every opportunity, talk down their indiscretions and continue the battle vs the media (ie Glen Archer).
Stage 2: Become one with the football media you once criticised (ie Garry Lyon).
Stage 3: "Back in my day..." (ie Sam Newman).
Stage 4: I've seen it all therefore I have the answer to everything (ie Ian Chappell).
Stage 5: Everything with the current game is completely wrong and all the players, coaches and administrators are ____ed (ie Neil Harvey).

That's beautiful

I wonder how Lyon justifies his own list clogging after his body started giving up in 1996. Or for that matter, his media clogging today.

 

[Vader]

You'd have to be harsh to consider Bassett & Edwards list cloggers. To me they both belong in the same category as Peter Bell.

To me, our list cloggers would be Biglands, McGregor, Massie, Shirley, Doughty & Jericho. Possibly Campbell - though it's hard to judge him, given his limited AFL exposure and outstanding SANFL performances.

Doughty has had a new lease on life and thoroughly deserves to be retained in 2009. Given the length of the list of cloggers ahead of him I would suggest that his position is relatively safe (provided he continues performing). Realistically though, there is no chance of him being part of our next premiership team.

Realistically, I doubt that Goodwin or McLeod will be either - but there is now way in hell I'm going to call either of them list cloggers!

I would not consider Nick Gill to be a list clogger, but I doubt he will be with us in 2009. He has all the talent required to be an AFL footballer, it's just that his body is too frail to withstand the rigours of AFL training & matches. I suspect that the AFC have learned the lessons of Matthew Bode (another player who was perpetually injured) and delist/retire him at the end of the year.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

so a (dubious) idea for article becomes gospel, and then instantly becomes applicable to all of our whipping boys?

please...

It's a terrible, cynical word that has been coined but, similar to premiership clocks and quarterbacks, I'm sure it is now here to stay - regardless of relevance.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

To me they both belong in the same category as Peter Bell.

Pleased to hear someone say that about Bell.

I think Freo have copped unfair criticism for maintaining him on their list this season. I know he has (until recently) had to travel from Geraldton to play which isn't ideal, but for a club that struggles with on-field leadership, discipline and appropriate role models there are few the fit the bill better. He is an educated, respected player and the people who said they should have delisted him are way off the mark IMO.

 

[King Elvis]

so a (dubious) idea for article becomes gospel, and then instantly becomes applicable to all of our whipping boys?

please...

For once, we agree completely.

List clogging is a load of shit - it's another part of the myth for Clubs like Melbourne to justify that they aren't shit, they're just 'bottoming out,' so they can rebuild and challenge for the flag. Does a 'list clogger' still exist when you are constantly challenging for a flag?

What a load of shit.

Some of the 'list cloggers' you guys are talking about hear we walk into almost every other side in the comp. A lot of the others are depth players.

Every player on your list isn't going to be a superstar.

 

[jenny61_99]

Boy I know Ive got my doubts re Edwards disposal but he's hardly a list clogger!

I'd agree with Kenny, Jericho (only because he's being dropped after a good game and clearly isn't considered essential), and perhaps Massie although I still think he has something to offer. Bassett isn't a list clogger either - starting 22 every time, BUT he needs to lift his form. Biglands unfortunately had crap timing with his second recon. Game over for him. I think it's still too early to call on Campbell.

 

[WALL-e]

bassett and edwards have earned the right to have a little clog to them. but they dont have much at all, they will be given the option of calling their retirement and going 'on their terms'.

jehrico, mcgreggor, gill, shirley are the cloggers in mine, and im being harsh, i love all the boys at the afc, but im not yet sold or lost on campbell

 

[fryingpan]

Nice to see people putting down Bassett & Edwards down as list cloggers just because of last weeks game Unbelievable.

Watch them come out tonight and play rippers.

 

[J-Train]

Even the so called list cloggers will rip the bag tonight with absolutely no defensive pressure coming from the pathetic Bombers. I suggest, if you havent already, make a Crow your DreamTeam captain as its going to be a possession avalanche and subsequent massacre out there tonight. Crows by 60+ should be a monty. Knights has already come out and promised all out attack, watch the Bombers fly for the first quarter until the unaccountability starts to hurt them going the other way. There only grunt player who feeds it out to all their soft runners is Watson, and he is out with knee tendonitis. CROWS by ppppleeeeeeeenty! Tippet to kick 6 and 30 touches for Robbie Shirley!

 

[KUNG FU]

This year we will look to lose 4 or maybe 5 players from our list considering the apparent depth of this upcoming draft. I think we should be cautious not to overstep the mark with some of our 25-29 fringe players because we will be losing a lot of experience at the club very soon and even though some players in this group are perhaps a touch fortunate to be on an AFL list, we should be careful not to undermine our youth development by throwing so much of this experience out in one shot.

This year we should expect 2 retirements: Biglands and Bassett/Edwards/McLeod (in order of likelihood)

That just leaves 2 or 3 more players that should be removed from the list:

Jericho: I'm not even going to bother. There's enough ink spilt over him on this board over the last 5 years.
McGregor: I'll be honest, if he goes, I'll be happy that the last man standing from perhaps the worst 3 tall forwards to ever lead an AFL side will be gone. Looks well out of his depth. His contested marking ability has been blown out of the water by Tippett. I suspect he may be responsible for Gill's string of injuries, as it is his best shot at staying on the list.
Gill: Was clearly drafted as a stop gap measure. Injury plagued. There are still issues with his kicking and long term he should be behind Tippet, Sellar, Walker and Hentschel. Nonetheless, hard-working, creates pressure in the forward line, excellent contested mark and it may be a bit premature to cancel our insurance with Goodwin and Burton holding spots for the younger brigade for the next 2 years at best. This may buy Gill another year at least to have a genuine shot.
Shirley: I think he may lose out to Campbell due to age. No one could question his ethic and he has been a solid contributor to the side. He is exactly the kind of player you want making an impression on the younger brigade.
Massie: Again, a fringe player, but he's got plenty of good football left in him. Unfortunately, he has been surpassed many moons ago by Symes and soon Otten, but I would patient with him as his fitness, size and poise means he's a high value fringe player.
Campbell: As I've said many times, huge fan of his SANFL work. Didn't quite understand why he was drafted though. If Shirley goes, Campbell has a lot more time under his belt. Behind NVB we don't really have a true defensive midfielder, so it'd be good if he got another year to go around.
Gallman: Extremely unlikely scenario, but he should consider himself under pressure to get back on the track asap.
Doughty has bought himself another year, no doubt. I doubt he'll make it past 30 though.

Personally, I don't see Jericho or McGregor having any further role to play at AFL level. Gill may be saved by McGregor's departure. If they cut deep again, in advance of the new franchises' draft concessions, Shirley or Campbell will be under the pump. However, I'd caution that as this was a move we made last year, we will have some automatic deletions soon from Edwards, McLeod, Goodwin & Burton and will need some depth and experience in the years to come.

EDIT: I didn't factor in possible rookie upgrades. So a 5th deletion is a strong possibility. Biggie, Bassett, Jericho, McGregor & Campbell is my guess.

DOUBLE EDIT: Man, that list cloggers article is bullshit. This is my ' pre-emptive end of season list review' post.

 

[Damp Squarie]

Picking a list of cloggers is like asking any diehard crows supporter to shoot 6 crow players right here right now...pretty damn hard to do without emotion...fryingpan you need to lighten up.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

I find it hard to read crows supporters speaking so poorly of Edwards and Bassett. Sure Biglands time is up after back to back re-cons. I also understand this is most likely to be Edwards and Bassetts last year and in todays game you dont get to go out on your own terms but to call Edwards and Bassett list cloggers is un-crowslike. I hope they come out and dominate for the rest of the year...

 

[Baron Winds]

I thought kenny got a 2 year contract?

 

[Vader]

I thought kenny got a 2 year contract?

He did, but can you honestly justify retaining him in 2009 based on the form he has shown in 2008? The decision to give him a 2-year contract after his efforts in 2008 is mystifying to say the least. Then again, he was just about the only forward who stood up in the final...

Seriously though, the club can always bite the bullet and pay out the contract. Still counts under the salary cap for next year if they do it though.

 

[The Crows Truth]

He did, but can you honestly justify retaining him in 2009 based on the form he has shown in 2008? The decision to give him a 2-year contract after his efforts in 2008 is mystifying to say the least. Then again, he was just about the only forward who stood up in the final...

Seriously though, the club can always bite the bullet and pay out the contract. Still counts under the salary cap for next year if they do it though.

some differences though Vader

(1) Ken is most probably on 225-275K ish (IMO) , so alot more $'s than the last time we paid out a contract to Obst (sub 100k). Thats a reasonable dent in the salary cap. Also from a footy club culture perspective, Ken has been a popular warrior who has tried his guts out for the club, not really sending the right message sacking him mid-contract.

(2) If Tippett went down next year do we have any other 'bang it long to' key forwards besides Ken? Trent and Walker both seem leading type forwards. Ditto for Sellar from what ive seen to date. Therefore, Ken is good insurance in case something happens to Tippett imo.

Also Ken has historically been the one forward who can kick goals in finals when other forwards dont gte a sniff

i reckon he survives this years cull. imo the 5 most in danger appear to be :

biglands - certainty to go
bassett - 80% chance to go
jericho - 90% chance to go
campbell - 50% chance to go

the last spot out of gallman and gill depending on injuries. edwards would need detioriate much further to be delisted

so that means petrenko upgraded, curnow and moss retained on the rookie list, thus leaving 4 picks in the ND which sounds right to me after the major list overhaul already seen in the last 2-3 years

will be interesting to review at year end

 

[RoosterLad]

For once, we agree completely.

List clogging is a load of shit - it's another part of the myth for Clubs like Melbourne to justify that they aren't shit, they're just 'bottoming out,' so they can rebuild and challenge for the flag. Does a 'list clogger' still exist when you are constantly challenging for a flag?

What a load of shit.

Some of the 'list cloggers' you guys are talking about hear we walk into almost every other side in the comp. A lot of the others are depth players.

Every player on your list isn't going to be a superstar.

That is a quality post. Calling blokes like Bassett and Edwards "list cloggers" is terrible.

 

[Checkers Nixon]

I am not a Crows supporter but I think that Adelaide has the best list management and recruitment in the entire AFL. Very slick outfit.