List management 101 (69?)

[GoRoos2023]

listening to Jayden talk about using Velocity points mid season to go to Bali on this vid made me want to spew up https://fb.watch/rjz6auJ4m5/?mibextid=v7YzmG

 

[ferball]

No wonder they can't focus on a game of football.

 

[ohmygewd]

Okay, so, first of all, good answer. Very informative. My next question is, why do these lessons generally only apply to an 18-21 year old? If a kid with tremendous potential goes to a club with poor development coaches and doesn't establish himself as an AFL standard player, why can't he then be taken on by another club and turned into a champion? This virtually never happens.

Depends on your definition of a champion? Mark Roberts l would consider a champion of the football club but he wasn't a Wayne Carey, same can be said about Dean Laidley...Winston Abraham..Robert Scott...etc..etc? Players who got the most out of their career and helped the club more forward and retired with dignity, their the champions in my eyes.

If a player doesn't have the hidden attributes of workrate/work ethic and desire to improvement, then it doesn't matter what pick or what system he plays in, they generally are found out and leave the game. Then you have some who have these hidden attributes but cannot accept that they are not that star junior player in the seniors and struggle to be a role player. Then you have players that just mature late and Jessie Hogan, currently, is the best example, oozed talent as a key forward, shown glimpses as to why he was a prized pick, injuries and off field/mental issues and people called him a bust, a year at Freo and nothing indicated that the bust tag didn't fit and then a move to Giants and been playing like his first 4 season at Melb...a star forward?

But..

The perfect storm of the introduction of the stand rule, 6-6-6, new coach and reduction of the soft cap has probably made this rebuild the hardest in recent history as a rebuilding team couldn't flood, couldn't play negatively, didn't have the amount of line coaches as they once had and l personally feel the club made a miss step in hiring an inexperience coach rather than a Choco.

What about before 2020 l hear you say? Well the blame is squarely and collectively on the administration, list and recruitment and ultimately Brad Scott and his coaches as he really didn't believe in developing players or investing time into young players or failed to recognizing that the sugar hits of making prelims in 2014 & 2015 were built from the list he inherited in 2010.

Lets have a look at Brad's era of 1st & 2nd round selections:
(*) denotes currently at club
Games = the amount they played for the club only before delisting or trade

2010 (affected by expansion teams)- finished 9th
Pick #17 Shaun Atley (234 games)
2nd Rd Pick #27 Kieran Harper (40 games)
2011 (affected by expansion teams) - finished 9th
Pick #18 Brad McKenzie (37 games)
2nd Rd Pick #40 Tom Curran (ZERO games)
2012 - finished 8th
Pick #15 Taylor Garner (49 games)
2nd Rd Pick #37 Ben Jacobs (64 games)(2010 Pick #16 Port, 26 games)
2013 - finished 10th
Pick #8 Luke McDonald (FS) (184 games*)
2nd Rd Pick #30 Trent Dumont (113 games)
2014 - finished 6th
Pick #16 Sam Durdin (22 games)
2nd Rd Pick #25 Daniel Nielson (7 games)
2nd Rd Pick #36 Ed Vickers Willis (21 games)
2015 - finished 8th
Traded Pick #15 for Jed Anderson (89 games)
Pick #21 Ben McKay (71 games)
2nd Rd Pick #31 Ryan Clarke (40 games)
2nd Rd Pick #33 Mitch Hibbard (4 games)
2016 - finished 8th
Pick #12 Jy Simpkin (137 games*)
2nd Rd Pick #34 Declan Watson (ZERO games)
2017 - finished 15th
Pick #4 LDU (89 games*)
2nd Rd Pick #23 Will Walker (6 games)
2018 - finished 9th
Pick #8 Tarryn Thomas (69 games)
Traded Pick #11 for Jared Polec (42 games)(2010 Pick #5 Brissie)
No 2nd rounder
2019 - finished 12th, cya Brad
No 1st Rd, traded pick #8 to Melbourne for Pick #26, #50 & 1st Rd.

Sure, some were unlucky and were curtailed by injury (condition and fitness coaches fault?) but a lot of wasted 1st and 2nd Rd picks that some should now be the 150+ games senior players or leaders at the club now....FFS Durdin played 22 games whilst pick #17 Kyle Langford is on 134 games and would be handy right now?

God l hope there is a silver lining to this rebuild!!!

 

[Twinkletoes]

Twinkletoes was it you that mentioned that Gavin Brown was pleading for more resources in the player development space?

Seems like we've finally done that.

Sent from my SM-A908B using Tapatalk

Yep, among other things too lengthy to go into in detail here. One was an improved VFL program, a stable football department and environment rather than constantly changing coaches and hence their directions for player development, and better recruiting and vetting of potential recruits psychologically. The quote posted earlier from Kinnear (from memory) was a salient one re competitiveness and self drive.

It's on the individual, Tony Shaw couldn't mark, kick but through his own sheer will, he captained a premiership side. He actually couldn't football as we like to say.

Lachie Neale spends his summers running. He did it against us last Friday up and bloody down until half way through the third when the Brissy coaching staff had seen enough. While he was out running TT was sinking piss, just sayin.
He isn't half the footballer as say an LDU, just is 5x fitter.

Our players and it dawned on me in that pic when the worst team ever was in the pool on Bali, looking like millionaires. They either DGAF or are oblivious to what it is they're trying to achieve.

I have saved that Bali pic and will upload it preseason 2026, won't be many left is my guess.

Yep

Depends on your definition of a champion? Mark Roberts l would consider a champion of the football club but he wasn't a Wayne Carey, same can be said about Dean Laidley...Winston Abraham..Robert Scott...etc..etc? Players who got the most out of their career and helped the club more forward and retired with dignity, their the champions in my eyes.

If a player doesn't have the hidden attributes of workrate/work ethic and desire to improvement, then it doesn't matter what pick or what system he plays in, they generally are found out and leave the game. Then you have some who have these hidden attributes but cannot accept that they are not that star junior player in the seniors and struggle to be a role player. Then you have players that just mature late and Jessie Hogan, currently, is the best example, oozed talent as a key forward, shown glimpses as to why he was a prized pick, injuries and off field/mental issues and people called him a bust, a year at Freo and nothing indicated that the bust tag didn't fit and then a move to Giants and been playing like his first 4 season at Melb...a star forward?

But..

The perfect storm of the introduction of the stand rule, 6-6-6, new coach and reduction of the soft cap has probably made this rebuild the hardest in recent history as a rebuilding team couldn't flood, couldn't play negatively, didn't have the amount of line coaches as they once had and l personally feel the club made a miss step in hiring an inexperience coach rather than a Choco.

What about before 2020 l hear you say? Well the blame is squarely and collectively on the administration, list and recruitment and ultimately Brad Scott and his coaches as he really didn't believe in developing players or investing time into young players or failed to recognizing that the sugar hits of making prelims in 2014 & 2015 were built from the list he inherited in 2010.

Lets have a look at Brad's era of 1st & 2nd round selections:
(*) denotes currently at club
Games = the amount they played for the club only before delisting or trade

2010 (affected by expansion teams)- finished 9th
Pick #17 Shaun Atley (234 games)
2nd Rd Pick #27 Kieran Harper (40 games)
2011 (affected by expansion teams) - finished 9th
Pick #18 Brad McKenzie (37 games)
2nd Rd Pick #40 Tom Curran (ZERO games)
2012 - finished 8th
Pick #15 Taylor Garner (49 games)
2nd Rd Pick #37 Ben Jacobs (64 games)(2010 Pick #16 Port, 26 games)
2013 - finished 10th
Pick #8 Luke McDonald (FS) (184 games*)
2nd Rd Pick #30 Trent Dumont (113 games)
2014 - finished 6th
Pick #16 Sam Durdin (22 games)
2nd Rd Pick #25 Daniel Nielson (7 games)
2nd Rd Pick #36 Ed Vickers Willis (21 games)
2015 - finished 8th
Traded Pick #15 for Jed Anderson (89 games)
Pick #21 Ben McKay (71 games)
2nd Rd Pick #31 Ryan Clarke (40 games)
2nd Rd Pick #33 Mitch Hibbard (4 games)
2016 - finished 8th
Pick #12 Jy Simpkin (137 games*)
2nd Rd Pick #34 Declan Watson (ZERO games)
2017 - finished 15th
Pick #4 LDU (89 games*)
2nd Rd Pick #23 Will Walker (6 games)
2018 - finished 9th
Pick #8 Tarryn Thomas (69 games)
Traded Pick #11 for Jared Polec (42 games)(2010 Pick #5 Brissie)
No 2nd rounder
2019 - finished 12th, cya Brad
No 1st Rd, traded pick #8 to Melbourne for Pick #26, #50 & 1st Rd.

Sure, some were unlucky and were curtailed by injury (condition and fitness coaches fault?) but a lot of wasted 1st and 2nd Rd picks that some should now be the 150+ games senior players or leaders at the club now....FFS Durdin played 22 games whilst pick #17 Kyle Langford is on 134 games and would be handy right now?

God l hope there is a silver lining to this rebuild!!!

Illustrates it’s previous downfalls fairly comprehensively.

It’s not rocket science.

Gav Brown was himself a skinny rake of a kid in the Sammy Wright mould as a schoolboy recruited to the Pies. A couple of years later he was built like a brick outhouse dominating a wing for the state team where he won the EJ Whitten medal as best afield in that momentous 1989 state game v SA at the MCG. Later he’d often fill in as CHF or FF, as he did in the 1990 premiership winning team. He did all of that through hard work. On field he was a competitive beast who inspired none other than Glenn Archer to become the player he did (Arch has said so many times).

He also came to us from a club dripping with every resource one could wish for.

Anyway, there were many many frustrations over the years and, as is commonly stated these days around these parts, “his time will come” and come it did.

 

[Colby Cheer Squad]

How many of y’all remember when this club could bring in no-names and they’d improve with us?
They’d either become world-beaters or at the very least, cult heroes. Always remembered fondly.
From Peter Bell all the way to Spider Burton, we always seemed to pull it off.

Now, from CCJ to Dylan Stephens, Polec to Hall and every Bonar in between, we just don’t.

Meh.

It's an interesting point but surely we didn't have more player development resources in the 90s and early 00s than we have had over the past ten years.

 

[amaz199]

Every mention of Kieran Harper

Kieran Harper

Age

33

Ht

187cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.9

2star

K

5.6

2star

HB

3.3

3star

M

2.0

2star

T

3.4

5star

G

0.9

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.2

2star

K

5.2

2star

HB

3.0

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

3.2

5star

G

0.8

4star

makes me die inside.

That bloke was a special talent. Contested beast, super quick and a great long kick as well. Could've been anything that bloke. In his first few games he was lacing out kicks to Petrie on repeat.

 

[R00StaR]

Every mention of Kieran Harper makes me die inside.

That bloke was a special talent. Contested beast, super quick and a great long kick as well. Could've been anything that bloke. In his first few games he was lacing out kicks to Petrie on repeat.

He and JWS

 

[R00StaR]

Our list is pretty solid, we just some experience so for mine we just take the best the draft has to offer. The only thing that really stands out is a key forward who can also take 5-10 minutes in the ruck and/ or forward hit outs. Of course a small forward would be handy, but they seem super hit and miss to find.

A key defender doesnt make any sense to me when just drafted W.Dawson, Logue due back this season and we just put Chom back there. Plus we got K.Dawson, Corr, Pink and Nyuon. Then we have Sheez, Archer, Hardeman, Fisher, Bergman, George. I wont include LMac as i dont see him going on past his contract. Given we're likely to get more mids then im adding Laz in the back 6 who has that burst speed to break lines and go with smalls. Plus Goater, but if he recovers well id like to see him on a wing.

Mids: LDU, Powell, Simpkin, Wardlaw, Phillips and this years pick. McKercher, Scott, Stephens and perhaps Ford on the wings, although i wouldnt mid seeing how Ford went in the middle tbh.

Forwards, obviously Larkey, could use a tall and Duursma. The rest needs to be pressure with some goal sense and mid rotations.

We do need more ruck options, Goad looks super raw and Free is way to slow for AFL.

 

[Only Forwards]

The perfect storm of the introduction of the stand rule, 6-6-6, new coach and reduction of the soft cap has probably made this rebuild the hardest in recent history as a rebuilding team

This is a much missed point on how we (and the Eagles) have mired.

A team can get a run on and close out a game in 20 minutes and there is no go to tactic to slow it down.

I am surprised there hasn’t been instances of running KPFs off the defensive side of the square straight into the backline to clog up the space.

 

[RossHenshaw]

Who will be delisted at seasons end ? My take-
Definitely: Drury , Free , Hansen jnr , Sheils , C Taylor , (T Thomas) ,
Possibly : Nyuon , Greenwood , D Tucker

 

[The Nostradamus]

Who will be delisted at seasons end ? My take-
Definitely: Drury , Free , Hansen jnr , Sheils , C Taylor , (T Thomas) ,
Possibly : Nyuon , Greenwood , D Tucker

Retire greenwood and shiels
Delist pink, free, RHJ, (Thomas)

That’s 6 spots opened up I think we keep changes minimal this year after mass turnover the last 4-5 years

 

[ohmygewd]

Every mention of Kieran Harper makes me die inside.

That bloke was a special talent. Contested beast, super quick and a great long kick as well. Could've been anything that bloke. In his first few games he was lacing out kicks to Petrie on repeat.

Likewise, followed him in his junior years and l thought..here we go - unfortunately who just couldn't stay out on the park much like Taylor Garner after him.

This is a much missed point on how we (and the Eagles) have mired.

A team can get a run on and close out a game in 20 minutes and there is no go to tactic to slow it down.

I am surprised there hasn’t been instances of running KPFs off the defensive side of the square straight into the backline to clog up the space.

You can't really as the 6 rule was designed to stop that from happening due to the old way where you could basically place your HBF's at the top of the square or play one or two men back. Now you press up which is the same tactics used in soccer but without the offside...if you commit too many fowards into their back half too defend, they are either too slow to transition back, over commit int he contest or midfielders dump kick blindly...then the turn over and defence faces repeat entries by the attacking team.

Then you couple the stand rule, plus some lackadaisical enforcement for the player to go back, and you are effectively have one player as a statue.

In terms of the list:
Drury/Hansen Jr needs to be that pressure small forward or look for a trade.
Cooper, old mans a legend but he too needs to find a spot and make a few senior appearance
Free - if he can't break into the seniors this year then free agent.
Taylor - I think he's out of favour and unless he is willing to be a tagger type/defensive/run with player, look to trade out.
Shiels - promote into list or recruiting or development coaching but his playing days are over.
Greenwood - 1yr extension.
Toby Pink - 1yr extension as insurance and allowing W.Dawson to develop.
Sellers - needs to break into seniors before a 1yr extension.
Maley - needs to get into a seniors before 1 or 2yr extension or contract
K.Dawson - 2yr contract.
Ford - Look for a 2nd rounder if not offer 2 yr contract.
Archer - see Cooper
George - needs to show us his wares and much like Maley, befor e 2yr contract.
Lazzaro - would be looking to trade out.
WillPhil - if an offer like a straight trade for a Busslinger or Lukious plus a pick or something of that ilk, push the button as l fear Will is fast becoming the Paddy Dow of NMFC especially if our 1st pick is a Smillie or top 5 midfielder.

I personally like for Thursfield/Rawlings/Barlow to look to trade players out for some value rather than a delist and no value.

 

[Grogg]

This is a much missed point on how we (and the Eagles) have mired.

A team can get a run on and close out a game in 20 minutes and there is no go to tactic to slow it down.

I am surprised there hasn’t been instances of running KPFs off the defensive side of the square straight into the backline to clog up the space.

Yeah they've killed a lot of tactical plays the "rules comittee" ( the HR of the AFL world) in the pursuit of constant movement and the game is poorer for it, imo. What gets called for deliberate out of bounds these days is mind boggling and there isn't a game that goes by that doesn't have at least one wtf call from the umpires.

 

[The Nostradamus]

So the big question by the media this week is to tank or not to tank last year against Gc for reid

Would’ve had pick 1 and 2 instead of 2 and 3

Essentially Reid vs Duursma as Kerch would’ve been taken 2 by us either way

Whatever winning culture they thought that win would bring clearly hasn’t translated early despite the tough draw

What is amusing is if we did tank we would have had the media now asking should Reid go elsewhere

The difference I guess to JHF is we would’ve had him on a 3 year deal as opposed to jhfs 2 year initial deal which gives us more time to turn things around

 

[ChairmanZia]

We shouldn't just be looking at the BIG STAR players. For every Carey, you need an Allison. We need those highly competent role playerse who could do those tough tasks to release the others.

Instead of playing the best team, let's play the best players for their roles.

We will lose a few of the players as we get the team slowly into combat ready status and that is resilience and thicker hide that translates to maturity and hunger for eventual success.

Having a team of superstars might not be the best thing but having a team full of people who wants change and hungry for success led by a few gems. I am of the firm opinion that this is where we are going and we should capitalise on those who don't want to wait.

 

[ohmygewd]

So the big question by the media this week is to tank or not to tank last year against Gc for reid

Would’ve had pick 1 and 2 instead of 2 and 3

Essentially Reid vs Duursma as Kerch would’ve been taken 2 by us either way

Whatever winning culture they thought that win would bring clearly hasn’t translated early despite the tough draw

What is amusing is if we did tank we would have had the media now asking should Reid go elsewhere

The difference I guess to JHF is we would’ve had him on a 3 year deal as opposed to jhfs 2 year initial deal which gives us more time to turn things around

Yeah it was next to impossible for us to tank that game after the start we had plus Jack retired a week early so he couldn't kick it out of bounds at every critical moment in the game..but we could have played Spicer instead of Curtis, Bonar instead of Corr, Young instead of Scott and Drury instead of Ford

I think Reid would have handle the stick that we've got this year which to be fair, we haven't copped it that much!

 

[scottywiper]

The plan to cover McKay's departure another tick for the list management gurus.

 

[Themanbun]

The worst thing about our approach is that it's flipping dumb and self defeating.

We went root and branch and decided to build from the midfield out, neglecting drafting for needs. This relies on bringing in good free agent/traded non midfielders. Yet the club knew we weren't an attractive destination when competitive, let alone when we're diabolically shit, which they also anticipated. And because we can't get those, we remain bad. Which makes us less likely to get those.

By the time any drafted KPPs are ready, Sheezel will be 25.

It's a paradoxical list strategy and always was from the outset.

 

[scottywiper]

The worst thing about our approach is that it's *ing dumb and self defeating.

We went root and branch and decided to build from the midfield out, neglecting drafting for needs. This relies on bringing in good free agent/traded non midfielders. Yet the club knew we weren't an attractive destination when competitive, let alone when we're diabolically s**t, which they also anticipated. And because we can't get those, we remain bad. Which makes us less likely to get those.

By the time any drafted KPPs are ready, Sheezel will be 25.

It's a paradoxical list strategy and always was from the outset.

But it's the only way!

 

[Themanbun]

I've copped it a bit for my no more midfielders shtick, and it looks like we're headed for another midfielder heavy draft.

I should clarify to say that my problem isn't so much picking up the best talent in the draft when they're a midfielder, but more so that we refuse to let go of any of our surplus.

For example how hard would it have been to have an honest conversation with Will Phil at the end of last year, about where he sits in the pecking order? With Colby coming in and Harry likely to get some midfield minutes.

We might have got a mutually decent trade at that point, with currency we could use to address a list need.

Instead he'll probably walk at the end of year and we'll be lucky to get a weak second rounder (because we can't trade with ourselves to overpay for a former high draft pick).

 

[Sphynx]

The plan to cover McKay's departure another tick for the list management gurus.

Comben has more than replaced McKay. In fact, he's doubling his output on last year.

Anyone that says otherwise, I have no idea what you have been watching.


The problem isn't the key defenders at the moment (apart from Biggie on the weeked), it's the game plan and the fact teams are transitioning at will, with often 1 on 1 or even most of the time being outnumbered in defence somehow. I suspect Pink and Biggie would look a hell of a lot better in other sides at the moment though, without having to try and defend these waves of uncontested inside 50's.

Clarko's zone and defensive line as a ****ing abomination.

 

[Themanbun]

Comben has more than replaced McKay. In fact, he's doubling his output on last year.

Anyone that says otherwise, I have no idea what you have been watching.


The problem isn't the key defenders at the moment (apart from Biggie on the weeked), it's the game plan and the fact teams are transitioning at will, with often 1 on 1 or even most of the time being outnumbered in defence somehow. Is suspect Pink and Biggie would look a hell of a lot better in other sides at the moment though, without having to try and defend these waves of uncontested inside 50's.

Clarko's zone and defensive line as a ******* abomination.

I'm convinced it's mostly caused by our one way midfield.

 

[Sphynx]

I'm convinced it's mostly caused by our one way midfield.

The defensive breakdowns aren't simply caused by 2-3 players.

If it was simply unaccountability, then it's even worse from Clarko, as it's something that could be reviewed and rectified in the mountains of vision they go through each week.

It's a high defensive line structure and game plan, he has either concocted on these study tours overseas, or during his break from the game.

16-17 players don't push up into our F50 during kickouts if it's not from instruction. All teams have to do is clear this zone of players, and it's often 7-8 vs our 5 running into open space in their forward line.

A small forward/medium is going to a 10+ goal bag against us one game with this structure this season. Im thinking Cody Weightman...

If you watch other teams live, they have a good 5-6 players 30-40m deeper than we do.


It's the game plan.

 

[DesertRoo]

The defensive breakdowns aren't simply caused by 2-3 players.

If it was simply unaccountability, then it's even worse from Clarko, as it's something that could be reviewed and rectified in the mountains of vision they go through each week.

It's a high defensive line structure and game plan, he has either concocted on these study tours overseas, or during his break from the game.

16-17 players don't push up into our F50 during kickouts if it's not from instruction. All teams have to do is clear this zone of players, and it's often 7-8 vs our 5 running into open space in their forward line.

A small forward/medium is going to a 10+ goal bag against us one game with this structure this season. Im thinking Cody Weightman...

If you watch other teams live, they have a good 5-6 players 30-40m deeper than we do.


It's the game plan.

I've got a feeling its exhaustion, dumb players, following their man.
And I'm talking embarrassingly like 15 minutes into the game their brains lack oxygen.

 

[Moti]

Comben has more than replaced McKay. In fact, he's doubling his output on last year.

Anyone that says otherwise, I have no idea what you have been watching.


The problem isn't the key defenders at the moment (apart from Biggie on the weeked), it's the game plan and the fact teams are transitioning at will, with often 1 on 1 or even most of the time being outnumbered in defence somehow. I suspect Pink and Biggie would look a hell of a lot better in other sides at the moment though, without having to try and defend these waves of uncontested inside 50's.

Clarko's zone and defensive line as a ******* abomination.

It is game plan and lack of athletic profile. All teams have 1-2 players with speed inside 50 providing defensive pressure, we have 0. Most sides have a couple of solid players and a star or two that run through then middle to provide defensive pressure, we have only 1 (Wardlaw). Most sides have a backline with defenders, we have Corr and LMac and that is about it. Most sides have attacking defenders with defensive ability, again, we have 0.

The list is not 2024 AFL profile.