List Management

[kempos_kingz_05]

I love collingwood dont get me wrong but........

I would not be overly upset if we didnt win another game this year. Lets be honest with oursleves theres no way where goin to do any damage in septmeber. Lets do a geelong, tank the rest of the year, and get the best draft pick we can get and some awesome kids and launch our assault on the flag next year and the year after when we have matured as a group.

 

[PendlePie]

I love collingwood dont get me wrong but........

I would not be overly upset if we didnt win another game this year. Lets be honest with oursleves theres no way where goin to do any damage in septmeber. Lets do a geelong, tank the rest of the year, and get the best draft pick we can get and some awesome kids and launch our assault on the flag next year and the year after when we have matured as a group.

Mate, as much as tanking would be beneficial for our future, we just can't do it. There's a word called "integrity" in the English dictionary...look it up.

 

[Bonuspoints]

Given the competitiveness in the run to the finals we may miss the eight without tanking. We may even tumble down to 12th. I think Holland, Egan, Toovey and Lonie are going to have a nervous time come season end.

 

[OniAu]

eitheir ways good , we make the 8 we get more finals experience.

we drop out we get a top ten pick and a good crack at getting a kid that can fill one of our holes in the team

mid, ruck or one more key back

 

[Bonuspoints]

Whats the story with priority picks in this years draft?

 

[kevind]

I love collingwood dont get me wrong but........

I would not be overly upset if we didnt win another game this year. Lets be honest with oursleves theres no way where goin to do any damage in septmeber. Lets do a geelong, tank the rest of the year, and get the best draft pick we can get and some awesome kids and launch our assault on the flag next year and the year after when we have matured as a group.

Placing faith in drafting good kids is the right way to go, as long as you have the right recruiting staff. I'm sorry, but Hine, Judkins etc make me very nervous when it comes to recruiting the right players. If you are wondering what I mean, just look at the disposal skills of our list.

Given that we do draft the right kids, it will take many years to address all the major problems we have. We need at least 2 quality midfielders, a ruckman and a key defender. They must all be excellent kicks as well. And as well as doing the usual beep tests, vertical jumps, test the players kicking ability ie. distance , ability to hit a target at pace, ability with both feet over distance and hitting up targets at pace ect BEFORE we recruit them.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Whats the story with priority picks in this years draft?

There are three teams currently eligible, IIRC, but it will likely only be Melbourne and West Coast who will qualify. As it's their first season with 16 points or less, they'll get an additional pick prior to the second round of the draft.

Pick #1 - Melbourne
Pick #2 - WCE
Pick #3 - Freo
...
Pick #16 - Geelong
Pick #17 - Melbourne
Pick #18 - WCE
Pick #19 - Melbourne
Pick #20 - WCE
Pick #21 - Freo...

... and so on.

 

[JohnD]

Mate, as much as tanking would be beneficial for our future, we just can't do it. There's a word called "integrity" in the English dictionary...look it up.

Pies have tanked before PP. How do you reckon you got both Thomas and Pendlebury ?

 

[boulos]

Pies have tanked before PP. How do you reckon you got both Thomas and Pendlebury ?

Same way you guys got Roughy and Buddy - We were crap.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Not to mention Ellis and Dowler. (or was it Muston?)

 

[didaka]

I love everything about finals footy and want to be there, but that saying I would love to have a crack at maybe a Hamish Hartlett, Sam Blease, Steele Sidebottom, Ziebell or someone else in this mold.

We would still have a chance at Blease and Sidebottom outside 10 I guess.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I reckon Blease would be outside the top 10, but yeah, Hartlett and Ziebell would be in there, and Sidebottom would probaby be around 10.

 

[didaka]

I think Ziebell should be the target.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

If we finish with a pick around 9 or 10, you'd think it would be unlikely that all of Rich/Hartlett/Ziebell/Sidebottom would be gone. However, Hine might have someone else in mind that any other club would seek to use a 2nd rounder on, and in true Hine fashion we'll just make sure we get the player we want regardless of demand.

 

[Bonuspoints]

Agree with ya Kevind. Harry isn't a tall defender so we need another to pair with Brown. Fraser is breaking down and becoming more frustrating so another ruck to join Wood and hopefully develop into a competitive ruck combination is a must. And of course our much maligned midfield needs attention.

 

[MagpieGirl_13]

I love collingwood dont get me wrong but........

I would not be overly upset if we didnt win another game this year. Lets be honest with oursleves theres no way where goin to do any damage in septmeber. Lets do a geelong, tank the rest of the year, and get the best draft pick we can get and some awesome kids and launch our assault on the flag next year and the year after when we have matured as a group.

Speak for yoursefl!
I'd rather us go down fighting than just give up.

 

[didaka]

If we finish with a pick around 9 or 10, you'd think it would be unlikely that all of Rich/Hartlett/Ziebell/Sidebottom would be gone. However, Hine might have someone else in mind that any other club would seek to use a 2nd rounder on, and in true Hine fashion we'll just make sure we get the player we want regardless of demand.

I dare say you're right.

However Jack Ziebell would fit in pretty nicely I reckon.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I really like Jack Ziebell, and no doubt we'd know him as well as anybody after he did his AIS training here in the preseason.

However ChipDouglas reckons Tom Swift did his with us the year before; and granted he's had a knee reco, but before that he was probably the best junior mid in that cohort. To read from the AFL prospectus...

"Swift underwent a knee reconstruction in April last year and as a result missed the remainder of the season. He is still a likely early draftee for 2008 after producing amazing numbers as a midfielder for Western Australia in the 2006 NAB AFL Under-16 Championships. He began that carnival with 40 disposals, followed up with 24 in the next game and racked up a whopping 45 disposals in the final game against Vic Metro. He led division one in handballs, marks, short kicks, contested possessions, uncontested possessions, handball-receives, clearances and frees for and looms as a prolific ball winner."

I doubt we'll draft him because he's not a bottom-aged Victorian, but yikes he sounds good. Given after this was written he was again injured and missed the U18 Champs, his draft position may slide a little. If we could upgrade our 2nd pick to an earlier one, such as WCE's (non-priority) 2nd pick or Freo's, we might stand a chance to nab him there...?

 

[didaka]

Sounds like a plan to me.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Another crazy idea; we could trade down in the draft. This sounds like lunacy, but it's commonplace in the NFL. If Hine's first love-child is likely to still be there after at #15, as opposed to our likely first pick of #9 or #10, we might be able to trade with a club above us on the ladder and pick up a player or picks later on.

Say (in a straightforward example) we like Sam Blease, and reckon he'll go around #18 or #19. We have Pick #10.

Picks #10 and #28 to Geelong
Pick #16 (Sam Blease), Pick #34 and Brent Prismall to Collingwood

Or, in a similar scenario where we like a Blease, but our third-best prospect would go before our third pick...

Picks #10 and #44 to Geelong
Picks #16 (Sam Blease) and #34 to Collingwood

By trading down in the first round to get a player we would have taken anyway, we're able to trade up from the 3rd round (#44) to late 2nd (#34) and nab another player we're keen on, as well as keeping our second-rounder (#28).

These are all scenarios we should consider if Hine's first pick is a smoky, which we all know he's capable of.

 

[boulos]

That's a very good idea TRS, but would we want to risk somebody else picking up a player we have had an eye on as a consequence?

Tom Swift looks like he'll be a perfect replacement for O'Bree or Burns. Those stats do make a statement.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

The risk is there, no question. It all depends on where we project a player's draft position to be, once we decide we're keen on him. In recent drafts, Cook/Reid/Dawes/Goldsack/McCarthy/Thoolen could all conceivably have gone substantially later than we took them.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Thought I'd use this thread rather than post yet another one...

With a trade for Didak and R Shaw mooted as likely or perhaps even more certain, it does change the landscape quite a bit. With the potential for a heavier list turnover comes the prospect of the club wanting to retain players with experience, or shall we say "good character". An easy (and almost certainly overly simplistic) way to address the issue is to simply move on the same people we would have had the Shaw/Didak situation not emerged, and simultaneously promote MacAffer and senior-list Reed.

To look at it more in-depth, I've loosely grouped some players who have varying question marks over their futures, deserved or otherwise. You may note that some players could fit into multiple groups, and others are somewhat harshly done by, but it illustrates my point.

The Under-performing
A Toovey
S Iles
N Maxwell
B Johnson
J Fraser

The Under-behaving
H Shaw
R Shaw
A Didak
B Johnson
C Egan
S Cox

The Under-attending
B Holland
S Prestigiacomo
S Rusling
B Dick
R Lonie

Now normally, you'd expect most list changes to occur in the first and third group, however this year some surprises might occur due to the perception that the club is in need of a "clean out". Consequently, players who are known to be good characters, or good players when fit, might be kept on the list a little longer than they perhaps normally would.

As a result of recent developments, have Brodie Holland's chances of getting a new contract improved? He's playing VFL again and making an impact, so it's not inconceivable. Sam Iles has also performed well at VFL level, but lacks senior opportunities. As he's another with no known queries over his commitment, he may also benefit from a reduction in pressure for his spot on the list.

Thoughts?

 

[pipeline]

Largely agree TRS except for Holland who has really dead-set had it. The reports from VFL are ludicrous - he's not having a real impact and he can't even run out a game. Also, Iles should be getting a chance. He knows how to get the ball, can run as well as Cookie and gets his own ball. It's only his disposal that's a bit iffy. Having said that, it does seem that he's no-ones love child.

I'd love Cox to stay and play but it's clear he wants to go home. And bloody Egan, I'd move heavan and earth to make one more attempt at getting him going. He could be a fabulous footballer - but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[mdc]

Thoughts?

Why are Maxwell and Fraser the only top 22 under-performers in the under-performing group? Neither is any chance to get de-listed, nor does trading them make sense given one's in the leadership group and one plays a position where we're still very thin.

I've mentioned it before, but when looking at "List Management" one key category that's not mentioned nearly enough is something I'd call "Players with value that play positions where we have excess depth". You talked about trading down being common in the NFL - this is something else that's done regularly. In our case, those positions are HFF and mid-sized defenders.

Players with value that play positions where we have excess depth
Goldsack (prime candidate, although not sure he has much value)

Maxwell (worth more to us than to anyone else)

Harry O (too good, won't get fair value)

Rusling (same as Goldsack)

John Anthony (looks very promising, plus rival clubs probably haven't seen enough of him to make a fair offer)

Didak (a few days ago he would have been out of the qn )

Medhurst (too good, won't get fair value)

Thomas (obviously comes off this list if Didak gets moved or if he could play midfield, but I think it's worth exploring)

Leon (too old to get fair value)

So realistically, if Didak is on the block, the only other 2 guys on that list that might get us something in return are Rusling and Goldsack.

I say offer Rusling to Sydney (who he's carved up repeatedly) for a small defender - Sydney always has a ton of these, and we could badly use one.

And I wouldn't mind seeing us try to use Goldsack to get a 26-28 year old midfielder who could help us out for 2-4 years and make O'Bree immediately redundant. Something like the Rintoul or Morrison acquisitions of yesteryear.