Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

I wouldn't be hung up about dates of birth on enlistment forms a great deal. People often under or over stated them for any number of reasons. BDM records should be preferred in my view.

Enlistment records are better for place of birth and other corroborative data.

Yes indeed Harry (just assuming you are thinking of my post), I'm very well aware that it was a common practice for people to alter their age when it came to army enlistment back in those days. The example I raised was not in the too old or too young category from what I can see, so I thought it was worth bringing up. Fortunately, our wonderful little community that we have here has latched on to it straight away, and it's all been sorted out!!!

 

[GreyCrow]

Yes indeed Harry (just assuming you are thinking of my post), I'm very well aware that it was a common practice for people to alter their age when it came to army enlistment back in those days. The example I raised was not in the too old or too young category from what I can see, so I thought it was worth bringing up. Fortunately, our wonderful little community that we have here has latched on to it straight away, and it's all been sorted out!!!

It was worth noting though.

 

[Harry Hook]

Yes indeed Harry (just assuming you are thinking of my post), I'm very well aware that it was a common practice for people to alter their age when it came to army enlistment back in those days. The example I raised was not in the too old or too young category from what I can see, so I thought it was worth bringing up. Fortunately, our wonderful little community that we have here has latched on to it straight away, and it's all been sorted out!!!

[/QUOTE]
My comment was not directed at your query about Lebrun, which was perfectly valid.

I regard army records as more corroborative evidence rather than of being determinative value given that I suspect that often a recruiter would guess that a person maybe telling untruths but accepted the lie at face value to get another soldier in ( sorry if I appear somewhat cynical).

 

[Harry Hook]

On a serious level should a new thread be started about AFL date enquiries be started ( pinned) so that any responses to AFL enquiries can be ringfenced into one thread rather than the all purpose inaccuracy thread.

We allready have data about Casey, Schellnack etc and we can transfer those posts to the new thread.This may save time as we don't go over old ground and we can then also note if a respnse has been answered.

The inaccuracy thread can then be used for own own queries rather than those generated by the AFL.

Just an idea to mull over.

 

[Harry Hook]

Folks I'm going to need some help on this.

One of the 3 birthdates missing from the Wikipedia project is for Bill Hennington.

Bill played for Leopold before playing 6 games in 1914 for South Melbourne before disappearing from sight before apparently dying on 11 July 1964.

First some clarification. Leopold was not the place near Geelong but was a feeder club in the South Melbourne district as this article about Frank Harley in 1923 explains.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article184810470

So we are talking about a local lad.

That he was from Leopold is not in dispute as this 1914 article makes clear.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article7250033

No permit was necessary.

He, full name William Hennington, was transferred back to Leopold in 1915 as this Argus report suggests:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1515445

where he continued to play until 1919 as this report suggests.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165176732

He was an officer of Leopold even in 1921 as this annual report suggests

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article162540188

This also suggests Hennington was relatively young when he first played for Leopold and went to South Melbourne.

This I believe stitches Hennington's football career together from pre South Melbourne days to when he was a responsible member of Leopold (local Melbourne) club and it appears never went elsewhere. I think the permit clearly establishes a name and his existence before and after South Melbourne.

So who was he.

I should start by saying that is the date of death of William Hennington of 11 July 1964 correct.

I do not believe it is.

I believe that William Hennington is one William Hennington who lived between 1892 to 1965. I do not have access to Ancestry but the free searches on My Heritage indicate that William Hennington was born in 1892, at XXXXX, to George Hannington/Hennington and Isabella Sophia Hennington (born Remington).
George was born in 1853, in Prahran, Victoria, Australia.
Isabella was born in 1861, in Amherst, Victorian, Australia.
William had 10 siblings: Lilly Jane Barrett (born Hannington/Hennington), Norman Victor Hennington and 8 other siblings.
William passed away in 1965, at age 73 at XXXXX.

On my heritage they don't give you the name of the birth place and place of death but if his parents were Victorian and from Melbourne then he is likely to Victorian and living in Melbourne.

If I'm right here, He was 22 when he played for South Melbourne and 29 when he was at Leopold. that fits within our age bracket.

There's even a picture of him on My Heritage.

Moreover a free ancestry indicates that a William Hennington was on the electoral roll in Melbourne Ports from 1913 to 1965.

I don't have access to Ancestry but I can't verify if the Wikipedia date of death is correct just as I cannot verify the particulars of Hennington's birth or death.

What can be established is that we are talking about a man called William Hennington and his football background.

According to the Wki project only 3 dates of birth are remaining. If I am correct, we have the date of birth and the date of death may be wrong.

Don't assume anything I've posted is correct and if the geneologists and other coul individually fact check this that would be apprreciated.

In 2012 Col Hutchinson nominated this bloke as a "man of mystery". Let's see if we can solve it.

This is what was previously posted in relation to Hennington. The date of death was found to be correct. Now for the date of birth.

 

[Harry Hook]

Re Hennington

Here is a death notice by Elsie Hennington for her father George Hennington,presumed father of Bill. This was published in WA and places his place of death as Ballarat

West Australian 16 December 1924

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article31269759

On the assumption it's Hennington's father, this means he was 39 when Hennington was supposed to be born.

As to his mother Isabella, she dies in 1907

The Age 29 April 1907

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196166735

 

[Harry Hook]

Re Ahern

One thing that we can be sure of is that he is not William T Ahern as this grant of a permit from Melbourne to St Kilda on 2 May 1896 would appear to susbstantiate.

The Argus

2 May 1896

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article8900505

Ahern then plays for St Kilda in 1897.

A WT Ahern then appears to play for Brighton Football Club in 1898 and apparently weighed 29 stone and is a forward.

Brighton Southern Cross 30 July 1898


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article166114812

I've assumed that this is our st Kilda fellow( given the proximity of the 2 clubs).
And as WT was playing the same day as William it is not him.

Now for the Carlton changes:

Carlton Round 1 1897

V Fitzroy

In BillAhern
Tom Blake
Otto Buck
George Johnston
Bill Woodhouse

Carlton v South Melbourne round 2

Out Bill Ahern
Tom Blake
Otto Buck
George Johnson
Bill Woodhouse

In Sam Chapman
Harry Gyles
Harry Howard
Alby Patterson
Peter Williams

This report of the Age of 17 May 1897 re the South Melbourne game refers to the new man Williams being an "old time warrior"

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article190649636

In fact the Carlton team in round 1 were probably "novices" of whom the inclusion of the old timers Cameron and Williams bolstered the side

Argus 17 May 1897

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9156589

All the reports I've rad of that first Carlton game suggest they were very young.

 

[RAR1]

Hi Gibbsy. Depends where I am at with level of research I am doing (Aus/NZ or Worldwide) - usually be about 170/200, but over the years past if there has a major project of social history then happy enough for a block of time to pay portion of "annual" rate up to 400 or so - using it every day in detail = "dollar a day" but I certainly get my value out of it.

For example, it was very handy 2013-14-15 period when researching WWI service personnel, because a number of Aus people show up in NZ, UK, USA and Canadian military records.

Football (and other sport) always there in back of my mind as part of the wider social history and day-to-day occupations of players. Ancestry in recent months seem to have loaded on and INDEXED the Tas Govt Railway staff lists.

I do also use other family history sites now and then depending on what records they provide access to.

Great work

 

[rbartlett]

Okay. So post #1010 has the 4 outstanding DOB that Stephen Rodgers has identified as missing.
This post here I'll start to list DOD missing players from the AFL records. (Keep in mind their list is quite lengthy that they've sent I'll post 5 to start off). I'll strikethrough the names once confirmation has been found and will keep a list to submit to Stephen at seasons end.

Missing DOD for players
Lester Robert 'Bob' Allen (b: 22/12/1908). (Fitzroy 1926 - 4 games). One his original clubs was Sea Lake
John Anderson (b: 31/5/1888) (Essendon - 1907 - 1 game) . One of his original clubs was Essendon District
Norman Thomas Armstrong (b: 2/7/1925) (Footscray - 1947-48, 4 games) . From Braybrook. (I notice on his Wikipedia page it has a death date of 18 May 2015 - from Herald Sun obituary. Has anyone sighted that?) Thanks Croucher.
Henry "Harry" John Barr (b: 11/1/1880) (StKilda - 1898 - 3 games) . From Footscray VFA Juniors
Kevin Alwyn Barrett (b: 10/7/1915) (Coll - 1940- 4 games, Sth Melb - 1941 - 4 games). One of his original clubs Rochester. Thanks Croucher.

 

[the croucher]

Okay. So post #1010 has the 4 outstanding DOB that Stephen Rodgers has identified as missing.
This post here I'll start to list DOD missing players from the AFL records. (Keep in mind their list is quite lengthy that they've sent I'll post 5 to start off).

Missing DOD for players
Lester Robert 'Bob' Allen (b: 22/12/1908). (Fitzroy 1926 - 4 games). One his original clubs was Sea Lake
John Anderson (b: 31/5/1888) (Essendon - 1907 - 1 game) . One of his original clubs was Essendon District
Norman Thomas Armstrong (b: 2/7/1925) (Footscray - 1947-48, 4 games) . From Braybrook. (I notice on his Wikipedia page it has a death date of 18 May 2015 - from Herald Sun obituary. Has anyone sighted that?)
Henry "Harry" John Barr (b: 11/1/1880) (StKilda - 1898 - 3 games) . From Footscray VFA Juniors
Kevin Alwyn Barrett (b: 10/7/1915) (Coll - 1940- 4 games, Sth Melb - 1941 - 4 games). One of his original clubs Rochester.

Here is Armstrong's notice from the HS
http://tributes.heraldsun.com.au/notice/161172003

 

[the croucher]

Okay. So post #1010 has the 4 outstanding DOB that Stephen Rodgers has identified as missing.
This post here I'll start to list DOD missing players from the AFL records. (Keep in mind their list is quite lengthy that they've sent I'll post 5 to start off).

Missing DOD for players
Lester Robert 'Bob' Allen (b: 22/12/1908). (Fitzroy 1926 - 4 games). One his original clubs was Sea Lake
John Anderson (b: 31/5/1888) (Essendon - 1907 - 1 game) . One of his original clubs was Essendon District
Norman Thomas Armstrong (b: 2/7/1925) (Footscray - 1947-48, 4 games) . From Braybrook. (I notice on his Wikipedia page it has a death date of 18 May 2015 - from Herald Sun obituary. Has anyone sighted that?)
Henry "Harry" John Barr (b: 11/1/1880) (StKilda - 1898 - 3 games) . From Footscray VFA Juniors
Kevin Alwyn Barrett (b: 10/7/1915) (Coll - 1940- 4 games, Sth Melb - 1941 - 4 games). One of his original clubs Rochester.

Kevin Alwyn Barrett and wife Mavis are listed in electoral rolls in Victoria up to 1972. The next one which I can see on Ancestry is 1977 - they have moved to NSW by then.

Kevin died in Pambula Hospital (NSW) on 14 February 1984, see entry in The Age issue of 15 Feb 1984, it refers to wife being Mavis, so I'm confident this is correct person.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=KVBVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=O5UDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1949,7014105

 

[the croucher]

Okay. So post #1010 has the 4 outstanding DOB that Stephen Rodgers has identified as missing.
This post here I'll start to list DOD missing players from the AFL records. (Keep in mind their list is quite lengthy that they've sent I'll post 5 to start off).

Missing DOD for players
Lester Robert 'Bob' Allen (b: 22/12/1908). (Fitzroy 1926 - 4 games). One his original clubs was Sea Lake
John Anderson (b: 31/5/1888) (Essendon - 1907 - 1 game) . One of his original clubs was Essendon District
Norman Thomas Armstrong (b: 2/7/1925) (Footscray - 1947-48, 4 games) . From Braybrook. (I notice on his Wikipedia page it has a death date of 18 May 2015 - from Herald Sun obituary. Has anyone sighted that?)
Henry "Harry" John Barr (b: 11/1/1880) (StKilda - 1898 - 3 games) . From Footscray VFA Juniors
Kevin Alwyn Barrett (b: 10/7/1915) (Coll - 1940- 4 games, Sth Melb - 1941 - 4 games). One of his original clubs Rochester.

Henry Barr appears to have died prior to Nov 1929 as the death notice for his mother Lucy refers to him as being deceased
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...-01-01|||dateTo=1929-12-31|||l-state=Victoria

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Okay. So post #1010 has the 4 outstanding DOB that Stephen Rodgers has identified as missing.
This post here I'll start to list DOD missing players from the AFL records. (Keep in mind their list is quite lengthy that they've sent I'll post 5 to start off). I'll strikethrough the names once confirmation has been found and will keep a list to submit to Stephen at seasons end.

Missing DOD for players
Lester Robert 'Bob' Allen (b: 22/12/1908). (Fitzroy 1926 - 4 games). One his original clubs was Sea Lake
John Anderson (b: 31/5/1888) (Essendon - 1907 - 1 game) . One of his original clubs was Essendon District
Norman Thomas Armstrong (b: 2/7/1925) (Footscray - 1947-48, 4 games) . From Braybrook. (I notice on his Wikipedia page it has a death date of 18 May 2015 - from Herald Sun obituary. Has anyone sighted that?) Thanks Croucher.
Henry "Harry" John Barr (b: 11/1/1880) (StKilda - 1898 - 3 games) . From Footscray VFA Juniors
Kevin Alwyn Barrett (b: 10/7/1915) (Coll - 1940- 4 games, Sth Melb - 1941 - 4 games). One of his original clubs Rochester. Thanks Croucher.

There are at least a couple of others where the recorded DOB is/was incorrect
1) Arch/Arthur Middleton - see previous posts
2) Jack Roberts - see Wikipedia comment from The Pope

 

[rbartlett]

There are at least a couple of others where the recorded DOB is/was incorrect
1) Arch/Arthur Middleton - see previous posts
2) Jack Roberts - see Wikipedia comment from The Pope

Thank you. I'll add the Middleton post to the email summary I'll send to AFL.
And I'll add the Jack Roberts quotes by The Pope to email summary as well.

I'm ensuring that I am attributing the correct user/s to the information discovered.
I know some of you may not want your usernames added as 'founders' of the information so I can happily remove you.
Alternatively, you all may be comfortable to simply have this email submission all under the one wider group of 'BigFooty Thread users'.
Group DM me if you wish to discuss further.

 

[the croucher]

Okay. So post #1010 has the 4 outstanding DOB that Stephen Rodgers has identified as missing.
<snip>

Missing DOD for players
Lester Robert 'Bob' Allen (b: 22/12/1908). (Fitzroy 1926 - 4 games). One his original clubs was Sea Lake
<snip>

One of the family trees lodged on Ancestry has Allen's date of death listed as
8 April 1992 in Victoria but no precise location shown.

At the moment I haven't been able to find a cemetery site, or newspaper online, which might help confirm it.

 

[the croucher]

There are at least a couple of others where the recorded DOB is/was incorrect
1) Arch/Arthur Middleton - see previous posts
2) Jack Roberts - see Wikipedia comment from The Pope

Roberts was one of at least 10 children born to William and (Jennyfer Trahail - or various alternative spellings)
between about 1861 and about 1888.

The names of his siblings listed in his death notice on this page
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/413911
basically match the details found when searching the Vic BDMs site.

Therefore the 5 August 1921 date appears confirmed as his date of death
and at the same time confirms via the Vic BDMs the 1867 date as year of birth, reg no. 4731.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Henry Barr appears to have died prior to Nov 1929 as the death notice for his mother Lucy refers to him as being deceased
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203253808?searchTerm=lucy barr&searchLimits=dateFrom=1929-01-01|||dateTo=1929-12-31|||l-state=Victoria

To further refine date range - he seems to have died before his brother Leslie in 1917 - see http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1659082

 

[Harry Hook]

Before we run off trying to track down Henry Barr's details, are we sure the information provided is correct?

That a player named Barr played 1 game for St Kilda in round 3 against Fitzroy may be presumed. We know from experience that the records f the Saints early on are dodgy ( remember Richardson - and he played more than 1 game) so are we sure his name was Harry, and even if it were, are we sure that Harry is Henry John Barr or is it Harold Barr or even if it is Henry, do we know if Henry a first or second name. We are operating on an assumption.

Where is the permit record, the references to him pre and post 1898?

The reason I say this is because I can't even confirm his background data.

What I do know is that a W Barr transferred from Williamstown to Essendon Town.

Argus 2 May 1900

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9539779

The reason I say this is because the electoral roll references to Henry John Barr finish in 1903 ( and there are no more that I can see on my limited access to ancestry).

Then there is death notice:

Argus 1 October 1904 (post football season)

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page338209

Don't look for Barr, look for Wilson and you will see one Henry Barr dies in 1904 and that his age was 31 which from my rudimentary maths makes him born 1873 and playing for St Kilda ( if he is indeed the man) at age 25.

It's only supposition though.

Have we established his football background, who he played for before st Kilda and when he started playing for them. and the same exercise for after.

But I have pointed to at least one player at contemporary times who played football at a junior level.

And also to back this up, I have this report of the Williamstown chronicle which places a Barr playing in 1892 for Footscray

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article68571420


which , if he is our man who plays for the Saints in 1898, means he is at least 25 when he plays for the Saints ( or rather,at the very least, that he could not have been born in 1880.)

Playing for Footscray juniors does not mean he was young.

Which is an elongated way of saying that the data which we are relying upon may not be correct.

 

[the croucher]

Before we run off trying to track down Henry Barr's details, are we sure the information provided is correct?

That a player named Barr played 1 game for St Kilda in round 3 against Fitzroy may be presumed. We know from experience that the records f the Saints early on are dodgy ( remember Richardson - and he played more than 1 game) so are we sure his name was Harry, and even if it were, are we sure that Harry is Henry John Barr or is it Harold Barr or even if it is Henry, do we know if Henry a first or second name. We are operating on an assumption.

Where is the permit record, the references to him pre and post 1898?

The reason I say this is because I can't even confirm his background data.

What I do know is that a W Barr transferred from Williamstown to Essendon Town.

Argus 2 May 1900

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9539779

The reason I say this is because the electoral roll references to Henry John Barr finish in 1903 ( and there are no more that I can see on my limited access to ancestry).

Then there is death notice:

Argus 1 October 1904 (post football season)

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page338209

Don't look for Barr, look for Wilson and you will see one Henry Barr dies in 1904 and that his age was 31 which from my rudimentary maths makes him born 1873 and playing for St Kilda ( if he is indeed the man) at age 25.

It's only supposition though.

Have we established his football background, who he played for before st Kilda and when he started playing for them. and the same exercise for after.

But I have pointed to at least one player at contemporary times who played football at a junior level.

And also to back this up, I have this report of the Williamstown chronicle which places a Barr playing in 1892 for Footscray

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article68571420


which , if he is our man who plays for the Saints in 1898, means he is at least 25 when he plays for the Saints ( or rather,at the very least, that he could not have been born in 1880.)

Playing for Footscray juniors does not mean he was young.

Which is an elongated way of saying that the data which we are relying upon may not be correct.

Henry Barr Wilson birth registered in 1873 #13723, in district Yakandandah
to parents Thomas Henry Wilson and Anne Matilda (nee Barr)
Henry Barr Wilson death registered in 1904 #9914, in district Mitta Mitta, aged 31
parents named as Thomas Henry and Annie Matilda (nee Barr)

 

[the croucher]

Before we run off trying to track down Henry Barr's details, are we sure the information provided is correct?

That a player named Barr played 1 game for St Kilda in round 3 against Fitzroy may be presumed. We know from experience that the records f the Saints early on are dodgy ( remember Richardson - and he played more than 1 game) so are we sure his name was Harry, and even if it were, are we sure that Harry is Henry John Barr or is it Harold Barr or even if it is Henry, do we know if Henry a first or second name. We are operating on an assumption.

Where is the permit record, the references to him pre and post 1898?

<snip>

Yes Harry, I agree with the general tenor of your thoughts.

If I haven't mentioned this in a previous post, then now seems as good a time as any.
For a while now I've suspected that due to the lack of contemporary team lists,
the entire VFL player list needs to be reviewed up to a certain point (date yet to be determined).

I wonder what the earliest "match day team sheets" are in the AFL collections ?

At the moment the Sporting Globe (from mid 1922 onwards) is the most immediate reference to a match day player list.
Well, at least by surname anyway. So as far as I'm aware, 1897 - 1922 period is lacking that level of report.

As Harry hints at - there is presumed a player by name of Barr played for St Kilda in Rnd 3 vs Fitzroy.
Unfortunately, the copies of The Herald available online through Google News Archive are almost unreadable.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18980524&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

 

[35Daicos]

The reason I say this is because I can't even confirm his background data.

What I do know is that a W Barr transferred from Williamstown to Essendon Town.

Argus 2 May 1900

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9539779

Pat Barr played 3 games for Essendon in 1898 (his only season), however 'The Encyclopedia' calls him W. Patrick Barr. There's probably a fair chance that he's the player who went from Williamstown to Essendon Town.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/P/Pat_Barr.html

Edit: Yes, he went to Williamstown after leaving Essendon:-

http://www.essendonfc.com.au/our-club/history/past-player-profiles/past-player-profiles-b

Previous Clubs: Essendon Juniors

Patrick Barr was a rover who played two games for Essendon in early 1898 and then joined Williamstown in 1899.

He was caretaker of the first Essendon swimming pool.

Barr died on 5th September, 1945.

 

[Harry Hook]

Pat Barr played 3 games for Essendon in 1898 (his only season), however 'The Encyclopedia' calls him W. Patrick Barr. There's probably a fair chance that he's the player who went from Williamstown to Essendon Town.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/P/Pat_Barr.html

Edit: Yes, he went to Williamstown after leaving Essendon:-

http://www.essendonfc.com.au/our-club/history/past-player-profiles/past-player-profiles-b

Previous Clubs: Essendon Juniors

Patrick Barr was a rover who played two games for Essendon in early 1898 and then joined Williamstown in 1899.

He was caretaker of the first Essendon swimming pool.

Barr died on 5th September, 1945.

This is actually quite helpful. About 1900, the only Barr I've found is the Williamstown Barr.

The Williamstown Barr playing for Essendon precludes him being the St Kilda Barr, simply because the StKilda Barr's game and the Essendon Barr's games actually coincide.

The traditional DoB for Barr of 1880 actually anticipates a junior at the beginning of his career.

There is another possibility, the St Kilda Barr was a veteran at the end of his career ( hence why there is little reference to him playing after). He also could have been a player chosen at the last minute due to a shortage of numbers (a not unusual occurrence at the time).

If that latter possibility is correct, he may not be Henry J Barr 1880 but have been born 6-8 years earlier.

It may also explain the lack of a date of death.

Now to find the evidence.

 

[35Daicos]

This is actually quite helpful. About 1900, the only Barr I've found is the Williamstown Barr.

The Williamstown Barr playing for Essendon precludes him being the St Kilda Barr, simply because the StKilda Barr's game and the Essendon Barr's games actually coincide.

The traditional DoB for Barr of 1880 actually anticipates a junior at the beginning of his career.

There is another possibility, the St Kilda Barr was a veteran at the end of his career ( hence why there is little reference to him playing after). He also could have been a player chosen at the last minute due to a shortage of numbers (a not unusual occurrence at the time).

If that latter possibility is correct, he may not be Henry J Barr 1880 but have been born 6-8 years earlier.

It may also explain the lack of a date of death.

Now to find the evidence.

It's rather strange that the St Kilda Barr only played the one game, as The Argus said "and in front of them Aylwin and Barr did great work." It also said "but took in some good recruits in Barr (Footscray)". http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9835238

The Prahran Telegraph also praised his game:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144637566

 

[Harry Hook]

Okay I've decided to apply some science to this Barr fellow.

I've assumed the team line ups in AFL tables are correct ( a dangerous assumption maybe but we have to start somewhere)

In 1898 in round 2 St Kilda play Geelong. in the round 2 St kilda side, Beggs ( 2 games in 1898), Howell( 2 games), Jennings, McNamara, Phillips, R Stewart( 2games) and W Stewart play.

First possibility of an error. There are 4 Stewarts that play for the Saints that year so who knows played how many games, but I digress from the Barr issue.

In round 3, St Kilda play Fitzroy.

Out go Beggs, Howell, Jennings, McNamara, , Phillips, R Stewart, and W Stewart and in comes Barr ( 1 game in 1898), Collins ( 1 game in 1898), Dando, Gibson, G Stewart and A Stewart.

In round 4, St Kilda play Essendon.

Out go Brady, Cumming ( 4 games in 1898), Dunne ( 3 games in 1898),Rutherford, Barr, Collins and Dando and in returns Beggs, Jennings, McNamara, W Stewart and new players Hogan, Kay ( 1 game in 1898) and Morehouse.

In his career Beggs plays 13 games- mostly 1897, Howell 10 mostly 1897, R Stewart 15 mostly 1897, Barr, 1 game in his career, Collins 7 games mostly 1897, Cumming 4 in 1898, Dunne 13 mostly 1897, and Kay 1 game.

So what does all this tell us.

It tells us that in early 1898, the St Kilda team was being exposed and numerous 1897 players were playing fewer and their final games and the Saints were trialling some new players in Kay, Cumming and Barr in place of their 1897 team - and these triallees (if there is such a word) did not work out.

What it does do however is give us some "hook" words for Trove to get further information.

I also suspect, without any evidence that Barr man not be the only error (if indeed it is one).

 

[Harry Hook]

It's rather strange that the St Kilda Barr only played the one game, as The Argus said "and in front of them Aylwin and Barr did great work." It also said "but took in some good recruits in Barr (Footscray)". http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9835238

The Prahran Telegraph also praised his game:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144637566

But unlike other reports of the time, it does not suggest Barr was a junior ( in the age sense of the word as against the level of competition sense of the word).

Take for example the case Schellnack. From memory the reports when he played at Fitzroy refer to him being from Brunswick but do not suggest he is young ( as Schellnack had played 5 years of football by that time).