Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

wow – that’s a whole new retrospective medal to be awarded!

Yes, that makes it quite a big story! According to the official records, in 123 VFL/AFL seasons Collingwood has only had joint leading goalkickers once (2002).

However AFL Tables shows both Bob Galbally and Lou Richards on 26 goals for 1944.
This is what it said on the AFL Historical Statistics site:

The AFL Season Guide has just Richards (26 goals) as the award winner for that year, as does Wikipedia and AustralianFootball.com. Interesting!

Terry Waters is credited with being leading goalkicker on two occasions (1963, 1964) and Ian Graham one (1966). Perhaps ironically, Graham won the B&F in 1964.

Edit: It does have Richards and Galbally as joint winners (26 goals) on this page on Collingwood Forever: https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/the-awards-leading-goalkicker/
Ideally it would be shown that way on all sources.

 

[Supermercado]

Here it is! About one minute in - Waters marks, kicks forward, Graham snaps it up and goals:


Looks like The Age did get it right, (just about) everyone else got it wrong. The AFL Season Guide has the same goalkickers as AFL Tables and the others have.

This was very nicely spotted, by the way! It seems incredible that this error in such a big game has been out there for so long!

As things stand, the records show this for Collingwood's leading goalkickers in 1964:
View attachment 805545
Waters is officially the leading goalkicker with 43 goals. So quite significant in more ways than one!

It does say this in that Canberra Times article:
View attachment 805548

Thanks for double checking on this. I suspected somebody botched the 'official' goalkickers and it's just flowed on since. Maybe this is the curse that's been stopping us from winning premierships since?

 

[35Daicos]

Thanks for double checking on this. I suspected somebody botched the 'official' goalkickers and it's just flowed on since. Maybe this is the curse that's been stopping us from winning premierships since?

Yes, it seems someone made a pretty ordinary mistake in the first place, and it's lasted this long without being noticed/rectified. Have you passed this find on to the AFL/Collingwood people?

Unfortunately, it's too late by just a few days for these changes to make it into this year's Season Guide.

 

[Supermercado]

Yes, it seems someone made a pretty ordinary mistake in the first place, and it's lasted this long without being noticed/rectified. Have you passed this find on to the AFL/Collingwood people?

Unfortunately, it's too late by just a few days for these changes to make it into this year's Season Guide.

Have sent it to Collingwood's historian for his thoughts (even though it's shown beyond doubt in that video) and will then send to the AFL.

 

[Oliver G]

Another update to the Melbourne numbers. Paul Payne is generally shown as #19 for all of 1986. He actually played in #43 until Round 17, then switched to #19 (previously occupied by Rodney Wright for two games earlier in the year) and mid-season recruit Len Gandini took #43. God knows why they went to the trouble instead of just sticking with the original numbers. Correction sent to AFL Tables, other outlets please note.

Thanks Supermercado, AF has been updated. I'm actually one of the administrators for AustralianFootball and am doing most of the accuracy edits so if you spot any more in the future if you wouldn't mind sending them my way as well that would be much appreciated.

All other recent changes have been made as well thanks 35Daicos and Rhett.

 

[35Daicos]

Have sent it to Collingwood's historian for his thoughts (even though it's shown beyond doubt in that video) and will then send to the AFL.

wow – that’s a whole new retrospective medal to be awarded!

Collingwood Forever has made the necessary changes on it's site already!: https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/honour-roll/

Bob Galbally's name has been added to Lou Richards' (for 1944) up the page a bit as well.

Leading Goalkicker

The Gordon Coventry Award is bestowed upon the leading goalkicker for the season.

forever.collingwoodfc.com.au

Terry Waters

It is a minor miracle that Terry Waters ever played for Collingwood. There were four other clubs chasing him, his brother had played for Hawthorn, he neither supported nor even liked Collingwood, and his VFA club wanted to block his path to the VFL. The major stumbling block, however, was much...

forever.collingwoodfc.com.au

Ian Graham

Ian Graham was not your average footballer – in any way. Exceptionally gifted and athletic, he would spark early comparisons with some of the game’s greatest, winning the Copeland and twice topping the club’s goalkicking in his first four seasons. But then, against all expectations, he walked...

forever.collingwoodfc.com.au

Great to see!

 

[Supermercado]

AFL has the change now and Collingwood has confirmed their own annual report mentions that the goalkicking (which there wasn't an official award for) was a 42-all tie so expect the official record to be changed soon. Lucky find!

 

[Oliver G]

Collingwood Forever has made the necessary changes on it's site already!: https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/honour-roll/

AFL has the change now and Collingwood has confirmed their own annual report mentions that the goalkicking (which there wasn't an official award for) was a 42-all tie so expect the official record to be changed soon. Lucky find!

Wow that was fast! this must be one of the fastest record changes we've had on this thread in the past five years.

AF has also been updated with the 1964 GF changes.

Australian Football - Match Details: 1964 GF Melbourne vs Collingwood

australianfootball.com

Australian Football - Collingwood Football Club - Stats

australianfootball.com

As well as the Honour Board with 1964 and 1944 now correct...

Australian Football - Collingwood Football Club - Honour Board

australianfootball.com

 

[35Daicos]

Wow that was fast! this must be one of the fastest record changes we've had on this thread in the past five years.

AF has also been updated with the 1964 GF changes.

View attachment 806528

Australian Football - Match Details: 1964 GF Melbourne vs Collingwood

australianfootball.com

View attachment 806530

Australian Football - Collingwood Football Club - Stats

australianfootball.com

As well as the Honour Board with 1964 and 1944 now correct...

View attachment 806529

Australian Football - Collingwood Football Club - Honour Board

australianfootball.com

Great work!

Edit: Well, hate to be picky but you have this on the Honour Board (should be 42)!!:

 

[Oliver G]

Great work!

Edit: Well, hate to be picky but you have this on the Honour Board (should be 42)!!:
View attachment 806667

Thanks for that, our Honour Board cron only runs once a day but I've run it manually so should be fixed now.

 

[rbartlett]

Came across this in 1920 Richmond Guardian
A advertisement for Peter Tuck who is clearly listed as "A Richmond Footballer".
Now in the same paper there is an advertisement for Vic Thorp and his tea merchant - so I wonder if Peter Tuck is a senior Richmond player?

I notice we don't have a Peter Tuck in the official records - but there is a Charlie Tuck - 1 game - 1920.

Charlie Tuck - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

TigerlandArchive , which used the 1996 Tigers of Old bio for Charlie Tuck has him also listed as Wally strangely. We have he played a few reserves games in 1920 as well. And this is apparently his footy journey:

Cobram 1913-1919
Richmond 1920
North Melb VFA 1921
Camberwell 1922-1924

Tigerland Archive | Charlie Tuck

Tigerland Archive

tigerlandarchive.org

So I wonder, is the Richmond player Charlie Tuck? or is he perhaps Wally Tuck? Or is he perhaps Peter Tuck as per the advert.
And is the Cogram, Richmond, Nth, Camberwell the same player.

 

[35Daicos]

Came across this in 1920 Richmond Guardian
A advertisement for Peter Tuck who is clearly listed as "A Richmond Footballer".
Now in the same paper there is an advertisement for Vic Thorp and his tea merchant - so I wonder if Peter Tuck is a senior Richmond player?

I notice we don't have a Peter Tuck in the official records - but there is a Charlie Tuck - 1 game - 1920.

Charlie Tuck - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

TigerlandArchive , which used the 1996 Tigers of Old bio for Charlie Tuck has him also listed as Wally strangely. We have he played a few reserves games in 1920 as well. And this is apparently his footy journey:

Cobram 1913-1919
Richmond 1920
North Melb VFA 1921
Camberwell 1922-1924

Tigerland Archive | Charlie Tuck

Tigerland Archive

tigerlandarchive.org

So I wonder, is the Richmond player Charlie Tuck? or is he perhaps Wally Tuck? Or is he perhaps Peter Tuck as per the advert.
And is the Cogram, Richmond, Nth, Camberwell the same player.
View attachment 808341

This is in the Rd. 7 1920 Football Record:


The Encyclopedia calls the 1920 one-gamer Charles W. S. Tuck, "From Cobram".

I see Charlie Tuck wore no. 21 (from AFL Historical Statistics site):


His permit: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1696421


1921 Football Record:


It's very difficult to read but this is from the Cobram paper in 1921: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165205790

It confirms he played for Cobram, Richmond (pretty likely!) then North Melbourne.

 

[35Daicos]

Came across this in 1920 Richmond Guardian
A advertisement for Peter Tuck who is clearly listed as "A Richmond Footballer".
Now in the same paper there is an advertisement for Vic Thorp and his tea merchant - so I wonder if Peter Tuck is a senior Richmond player?

I notice we don't have a Peter Tuck in the official records - but there is a Charlie Tuck - 1 game - 1920.

Charlie Tuck - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

TigerlandArchive , which used the 1996 Tigers of Old bio for Charlie Tuck has him also listed as Wally strangely. We have he played a few reserves games in 1920 as well. And this is apparently his footy journey:

Cobram 1913-1919
Richmond 1920
North Melb VFA 1921
Camberwell 1922-1924

Tigerland Archive | Charlie Tuck

Tigerland Archive

tigerlandarchive.org

So I wonder, is the Richmond player Charlie Tuck? or is he perhaps Wally Tuck? Or is he perhaps Peter Tuck as per the advert.
And is the Cogram, Richmond, Nth, Camberwell the same player.
View attachment 808341

Charles William Samuel Tuck according to this. I don't know where the Peter (or the Wally) comes into it?:




W. Tuck is mentioned here as being on the committee at Camberwell FC: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2058369 (1925)
====================================================================================
This is a list of phone (?) subscribers at Cobram: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165208939 (27 Mar 1924)

That's a bit confusing!

There's plenty of mention of Walter S. Tuck of Cobram to be found. Here, he and his wife have a baby in 1917: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1629593
Same again in 1920 (so perhaps a different person?): https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4581686

^ Seems to be this chap:

May have been a cousin of the footballer?

 

[35Daicos]

Came across this in 1920 Richmond Guardian
A advertisement for Peter Tuck who is clearly listed as "A Richmond Footballer".
Now in the same paper there is an advertisement for Vic Thorp and his tea merchant - so I wonder if Peter Tuck is a senior Richmond player?

I notice we don't have a Peter Tuck in the official records - but there is a Charlie Tuck - 1 game - 1920.

Charlie Tuck - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

TigerlandArchive , which used the 1996 Tigers of Old bio for Charlie Tuck has him also listed as Wally strangely. We have he played a few reserves games in 1920 as well. And this is apparently his footy journey:

Cobram 1913-1919
Richmond 1920
North Melb VFA 1921
Camberwell 1922-1924

Tigerland Archive | Charlie Tuck

Tigerland Archive

tigerlandarchive.org

So I wonder, is the Richmond player Charlie Tuck? or is he perhaps Wally Tuck? Or is he perhaps Peter Tuck as per the advert.
And is the Cogram, Richmond, Nth, Camberwell the same player.
View attachment 808341

There was a Wally Tuck who played for St Kilda at around that time: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Wally_Tuck

Australian Football - Wally Tuck - Player Bio

australianfootball.com

Perhaps that somehow has caused confusion?!

This is Charlie getting married in October 1921. It looks like the family had moved to St Kilda: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/146317769


So perhaps Wally was a brother of Charlie?

Seemingly not!


The Tuck at Camberwell may well be the ex-St Kilda player, not the ex-Richmond chap.

 

[35Daicos]

Came across this in 1920 Richmond Guardian
A advertisement for Peter Tuck who is clearly listed as "A Richmond Footballer".
Now in the same paper there is an advertisement for Vic Thorp and his tea merchant - so I wonder if Peter Tuck is a senior Richmond player?

I notice we don't have a Peter Tuck in the official records - but there is a Charlie Tuck - 1 game - 1920.

Charlie Tuck - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

TigerlandArchive , which used the 1996 Tigers of Old bio for Charlie Tuck has him also listed as Wally strangely. We have he played a few reserves games in 1920 as well. And this is apparently his footy journey:

Cobram 1913-1919
Richmond 1920
North Melb VFA 1921
Camberwell 1922-1924

Tigerland Archive | Charlie Tuck

Tigerland Archive

tigerlandarchive.org

So I wonder, is the Richmond player Charlie Tuck? or is he perhaps Wally Tuck? Or is he perhaps Peter Tuck as per the advert.
And is the Cogram, Richmond, Nth, Camberwell the same player.
View attachment 808341

I should have looked at this first!! Here's the death notice from The Age 15 Feb 1968: https://news.google.com.au/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19680215&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (page 9 of 18)


Looks like Peter was a nickname! I didn't find any (other) sign of him being called that apart from in those ads in the Richmond Guardian (and the P. Tuck in the Football Record).

There was a Tuck playing (and starring) for Camberwell in 1918. There's no doubt Charlie went from Cobram to Richmond then North Melbourne, but there must be doubt about the same player being at Camberwell 1922-1924.

I also think it very likely that there was some mix-up (Tigers of Old) with the Wally Tuck who played for St Kilda at the same time as Charlie played.

This makes it seem certain the Tuck at Camberwell was not the player who was at Richmond: http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net...r-Camberwell-Tricolours-Wells-Cobras-Part-One




Charlie (175cm) wouldn't have been a ruckman: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245603572 (30 Apr 1920)


Check the photos of the three Richmond players just above this ^ on that page.

 

[rbartlett]

Looks like you've solved it 35Daics.
Charlie William "Peter" Tuck is our player for 1920. Hence the P.Tuck in the footy record at that time, and the Peter Tuck advertisment.
I'll remove the Wally reference and also the Camberwell reference as well. Thank you.

 

[35Daicos]

Looks like you've solved it 35Daics.
Charlie William "Peter" Tuck is our player for 1920. Hence the P.Tuck in the footy record at that time, and the Peter Tuck advertisment.
I'll remove the Wally reference and also the Camberwell reference as well. Thank you.

Thanks Rhett. It would be interesting to find out how he went with that shop/business! It seems a bit much to be asking Richmond people to support him given that he only played the one senior game for the club, and just a handful of reserves games!!

It does seem that he picked a bad time to try and establish himself at Richmond. They were flying at the time; there were a few players out the week he was picked, but even Bob Weatherill (after kicking 4 goals) was left out (seemingly dropped) a week later! I did see one paper that mentioned Tuck as having played well, but they named more than half the side as having done that.

 

[rbartlett]

Update regarding Bert James dod details.
Made contact with his son - who is Max James - the Port Adelaide and South Melbourne player.
He confirmed the death details were all correct except the year - Bert died in 1992, not 1991.

Bert James (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Can wiki please be updated by someone. Fyi also to Oliver Gigacz

Edit: son not father.

bump. Can our Wiki guys update the death date for Bert James as 1992, not 1991

 

[RedmanWasHere]

"Charlie Tuck, the ex-Cobramite, who had a run last season with the ? (maybe Kensington) club, played for the North Melbourne Uni (Association) against Hvmiu (maybe Hotham) ? and accordig????????????


This transcribing stuff is quite a head scratcher.

Particularly when virtually a whole paragraph just about fades.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

bump. Can our Wiki guys update the death date for Bert James as 1992, not 1991

I can try but what do I use as the source/external link?

 

[35Daicos]

"Charlie Tuck, the ex-Cobramite, who had a run last season with the ? (maybe Kensington) club, played for the North Melbourne Uni (Association) against Hvmiu (maybe Hotham) ? and accordig????????????


This transcribing stuff is quite a head scratcher.

Particularly when virtually a whole paragraph just about fades.

Thanks. It has to say Richmond for the "who had a run last season with the ?" bit. We do know he was with North Melbourne (Association) by 1921. Looking at the date of the Cobram Courier article (19 May 1921) it should refer to this Rd. 2 game on 14 May:

 

[Oliver G]

bump. Can our Wiki guys update the death date for Bert James as 1992, not 1991

Done.

 

[rbartlett]

I don't have an Encyclopaedia book on me.
Can I confirm that the Bill Jones listed for Richmond 1911-1912 is William H. Jones
This article says he is 13st 10pounds which equals 87.1kg. Wiki/AFLTables list Jones at 77kgs
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page26270577

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

I don't have an Encyclopaedia book on me.
Can I confirm that the Bill Jones listed for Richmond 1911-1912 is William H. Jones
This article says he is 13st 10pounds which equals 87.1kg. Wiki/AFLTables list Jones at 77kgs
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page26270577
View attachment 812886

Yes Rhett, Jones, William H (Rich) 1911-12, 19 games, 6 goals. Ruckman

 

[35Daicos]

I don't have an Encyclopaedia book on me.
Can I confirm that the Bill Jones listed for Richmond 1911-1912 is William H. Jones
This article says he is 13st 10pounds which equals 87.1kg. Wiki/AFLTables list Jones at 77kgs
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page26270577
View attachment 812886

I wonder if Paul just copied that one incorrectly? This is how his entry looked on the AFL Historical Statistics site (Richmond playing list 1912 page):


The same height and weight figures were shown for 1911.

He's described as a "hefty player" in this Richmond Guardian article: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/254615931
This one also suggests he's a player with "weight": https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/255874931