London murder rate overtakes New York

[medusala]

Tell that to the young man of Pakistani descent that he's black.

I have given you the facts and you ignore or more likely cant comprehend them.

"Ms Dick said young black men and boys were statistically more likely to be the victims and perpetrators of knife crime, making up 21 of 24 teenagers murdered so far this year."

As for your moronic UKIP dribble.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43653291

Drug gangs controlled by Eastern European criminals are fuelling the rising tide of violent crime in London, a Labour MP has claimed

 

[Bradesmaen]

I have given you the facts and you ignore or more likely cant comprehend them.

"Ms Dick said young black men and boys were statistically more likely to be the victims and perpetrators of knife crime, making up 21 of 24 teenagers murdered so far this year."

As for your moronic UKIP dribble.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43653291

Drug gangs controlled by Eastern European criminals are fuelling the rising tide of violent crime in London, a Labour MP has claimed

And the murderers were? Facts again.

None of them immigrants either. All born and raised in the UK.

UKIP forever! Immmmmigraaaaants!

 

[The_Snake]

This is awful. Welcome to Sadiq Khan's London.

 

[HairyO]

Just to give some more perspective of how small the difference is between them, 1 in ten million is the chance of being killed by a plane falling out of the sky.

How many more murders than New York until London should start to get worried?

And what about other violent crimes on the rise? At what point do they become an issue?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

How many more murders than New York until London should start to get worried?

And what about other violent crimes on the rise? At what point do they become an issue?

Depends

Apparently white people getting murdered is more.violent than black people getting murdered, and white people do it due to mental illness while black people do it because of either being a muslim or inferior genetics

Do you have a weighted scale?

 

[HairyO]

Depends

Apparently white people getting murdered is more.violent than black people getting murdered, and white people do it due to mental illness while black people do it because of either being a muslim or inferior genetics

Do you have a weighted scale?

When you yell Allahu Akhbar its a giveaway its religious.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

When you yell Allahu Akhbar its a giveaway its religious.

Like the idiot in bourke street?

 

[HairyO]

Like the idiot in bourke street?

I can play that game. 13,000 Islam related attacks in 10 years. Want to take turns listing examples?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I can play that game. 13,000 Islam related attacks in 10 years. Want to take turns listing examples?

Do you need a lesson on the bloodshed in the name of jesus?


But thats okay, its not muslim

 

[Procrastinator35]

I can play that game. 13,000 Islam related attacks in 10 years. Want to take turns listing examples?

Remind me again how many Muslim countries are being unconstitutionally bombed to smithereens?

And who is it that arms these terrorists, trains & sponsors them to begin with?

No bombings, no European Muslim refugee crisis.....Actions/consequences.

 

[The Speaker]

Do you need a lesson on the bloodshed in the name of jesus?

You might need a lesson in the dangers of false equivalency.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

You might need a lesson in the dangers of false equivalency.

You might need a lesson that excusing violence in the name of "insert gods name here" is the oldest game in town. Islam didnt invent religious violence, most faiths have this

 

[The Speaker]

You might need a lesson that excusing violence in the name of "insert gods name here" is the oldest game in town. Islam didnt invent religious violence, most faiths have this

'Most faiths', you say? How interesting - which ones are you excluding from this? Perhaps I can help you: demonstrate, at any point, where Jesus, the founder of the Christian faith, supported, recommended or commanded violence in his name (seeing as he claimed to be God).

Then do the same for Allah in the Islamic holy texts.

 

[Procrastinator35]

You might need a lesson that excusing violence in the name of "insert gods name here" is the oldest game in town. Islam didnt invent religious violence, most faiths have this

Well yeah....That'd be due to the fact that it's easily the newest & the youngest of the mono-theistic triumvirate....Which might go some way to explaining the greater levels of zeal still a smouldering.

But Islam didn't set the Middle East on fire.....The U.S & it's allies did that.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

'Most faiths', you say? How interesting - which ones are you excluding from this? Perhaps I can help you: demonstrate, at any point, where Jesus, the founder of the Christian faith, supported, recommended or commanded violence in his name (seeing as he claimed to be God).

Then do the same for Allah in the Islamic holy texts.

only ones i exclude are those with as few followers to generate mass slaughter, but we know from jonestown to waco their deathtolls are only restricted by their smaller supporter levels

catholics, protos, jews, muslims, buddhists, athiests, all have killed massive numbers of non believers in the name of their faith.

reality is people who are ****ed up and wanna kill will kill, and finding a religion to validate it is a soft and easy excuse

 

[Procrastinator35]

Yep.....and Atheist Marxists have killed millions also.

Substitute 'ideology' for religion & you'd be closer to the mark.

Humanity subsists in the heart, not in the head.

 

[The Speaker]

only ones i exclude are those with as few followers to generate mass slaughter, but we know from jonestown to waco their deathtolls are only restricted by their smaller supporter levels

catholics, protos, jews, muslims, buddhists, athiests, all have killed massive numbers of non believers in the name of their faith.

reality is people who are ****** up and wanna kill will kill, and finding a religion to validate it is a soft and easy excuse

Nice deflection. Your refusal to answer the question speaks volumes.

You are right to say that people are messed up. All people are messed up, selfish creatures who will always think of themselves first. But in every religion bar one, there is a way in which people can overcome this through their own hard work. If only they behave in a particular way for just long enough, they will be rewarded. They are self-help religions. For example, in Islam jihad is the only guarantor of salvation. If you want to help yourself, commit jihad. In this way, Islam can be seen to be a religion of violence, as commanded by Allah and as demonstrated in the life of Mohammad.

The only religion which says you cannot help yourself is Christianity. Anyone who has ever broken even one of God's commands (ie. everyone who lives on the face of the Earth today) is guilty of rebellion against their creator, a crime worthy of eternal punishment, and there is no way to change that ourselves. By offering salvation through an external figure to ourselves (Jesus), it takes away the necessity of self-help doctrine, and changes peoples action not through compulsion, but through a desire to imitate their saviour. Their saviour being one who never sinned, never acted selfishly, never commanded violence against anyone and was willing to be crucified in agony for crimes he never committed.

That is why I called your statement false equivalency. These two religions have founders that are poles apart, and have beliefs that are philosophically opposed to each other, and why it is right for people to bring up the influence of Islam in rising violence levels, particularly as it comes in Islamic communities. I don't think it's the main cause, but it's there. Lumping all belief systems in the same basket is lazy and damaging to public discourse.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Nice deflection. Your refusal to answer the question speaks volumes.

You are right to say that people are messed up. All people are messed up, selfish creatures who will always think of themselves first. But in every religion bar one, there is a way in which people can overcome this through their own hard work. If only they behave in a particular way for just long enough, they will be rewarded. They are self-help religions. For example, in Islam jihad is the only guarantor of salvation. If you want to help yourself, commit jihad. In this way, Islam can be seen to be a religion of violence, as commanded by Allah and as demonstrated in the life of Mohammad.

The only religion which says you cannot help yourself is Christianity. Anyone who has ever broken even one of God's commands (ie. everyone who lives on the face of the Earth today) is guilty of rebellion against their creator, a crime worthy of eternal punishment, and there is no way to change that ourselves. By offering salvation through an external figure to ourselves (Jesus), it takes away the necessity of self-help doctrine, and changes peoples action not through compulsion, but through a desire to imitate their saviour. Their saviour being one who never sinned, never acted selfishly, never commanded violence against anyone and was willing to be crucified in agony for crimes he never committed.

That is why I called your statement false equivalency. These two religions have founders that are poles apart, and have beliefs that are philosophically opposed to each other, and why it is right for people to bring up the influence of Islam in rising violence levels, particularly as it comes in Islamic communities. I don't think it's the main cause, but it's there. Lumping all belief systems in the same basket is lazy and damaging to public discourse.

Christians offered a get out of jail free card to anyone who signed up to the crusades, sold a variety of items to guarantee forgiveness regardless of sin for centuries. What part of giving ones soul up to jesus is a part of that?

Pretending christians are morally above everyone else just sustains this kind of s**t

 

[Cooldude]

'Most faiths', you say? How interesting - which ones are you excluding from this? Perhaps I can help you: demonstrate, at any point, where Jesus, the founder of the Christian faith, supported, recommended or commanded violence in his name (seeing as he claimed to be God).

Then do the same for Allah in the Islamic holy texts.

Going by the death toll in the name of Christianity, it seems that it isn't just us, but most Christians don't care what your founder's teachings are, so why is it relevant?

If millions upon millions of people have been murdered in the name of your religion, then it makes jack squat what Jesus said. In fact, Jesus did preach pacifism, yet his "followers" still murdered throughout history, that just shows how ineffective he was and how little his "teachings" mattered in the grand scheme of things

Christians who brush off the terrible tragedies by pointing at what Jesus said are boring at this stage, if it suits you people, you'll twist what he said to mean something else entirely. St Augustine twisted Jesus sayings to justify "just war", even though Jesus preached absolute pacifism.

Religion has never really been about doctrine, it's just the easiest way to control the mass for particular purposes of a few individuals. Doesn't matter if it's Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, all of them, once you strip away petty "doctrine", are the same clusterflip mess that can perpetrate any manner of atrocities, violence and scam

PS: btw there are plenty of passages in the bible that justifies violence, and before you use the Jesus card, keep in mind many have used his words to justify war in the past, too, not that it matters to you

 

[The Speaker]

Christians offered a get out of jail free card to anyone who signed up to the crusades, sold a variety of items to guarantee forgiveness regardless of sin for centuries. What part of giving ones soul up to jesus is a part of that?

And does that accord with the Bible? Did they do what was right in the eyes of God? I don't think they did, as I can't see any justification for their actions from Scripture, which means that they were using the label of Christianity to hide their own greed. Does that make them Christian?

Pretending christians are morally above everyone else just sustains this kind of s**t

Wrong, Christians understand that they are morally equal at best, inferior at worst, for just as Jesus put all others before himself, so should those who believe in him.

And don't think I haven't noticed that you still aren't even touching on the teachings of Islam, which is what this discussion is about.

 

[The Speaker]

Going by the death toll in the name of Christianity, it seems that it isn't just us, but most Christians don't care what your founder's teachings are, so why is it relevant?

Most Christians? Are you sure about that?

Even if that were true (which it pretty clearly isn't, unless you're going off census data or something to define 'Christians', which would be weird), the teachings matter because they define what Christianity is. I'd have thought that to be pretty obvious.

If millions upon millions of people have been murdered in the name of your religion, then it makes jack squat what Jesus said. In fact, Jesus did preach pacifism, yet his "followers" still murdered throughout history, that just shows how ineffective he was and how little his "teachings" mattered in the grand scheme of things

Does it? What proportion of people who believe that Jesus is Lord and Saviour have committed murder? None of the apostles did. Do you have statistics for the early Church that was widely persecuted in Rome and didn't lift a finger in retaliation? Is there a high murder rate among Christians today? What proportion of Christians commit violent crime?

Or are you just using hyperbole and a vague history of the world to come to a conclusion that fits what you want to believe? Provide evidence of your claims.

Christians who brush off the terrible tragedies by pointing at what Jesus said are boring at this stage, if it suits you people, you'll twist what he said to mean something else entirely. St Augustine twisted Jesus sayings to justify "just war", even though Jesus preached absolute pacifism.

Truths can often be boring. Doesn't make them less true.

Religion has never really been about doctrine, it's just the easiest way to control the mass for particular purposes of a few individuals. Doesn't matter if it's Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, all of them, once you strip away petty "doctrine", are the same clusterflip mess that can perpetrate any manner of atrocities, violence and scam

Once you strip away doctrine you're left with nothing but the ills of humanity. Wow, who would have thought? Thanks for backing up my points, I suppose.

PS: btw there are plenty of passages in the bible that justifies violence, and before you use the Jesus card, keep in mind many have used his words to justify war in the past, too, not that it matters to you

What, you mean historical narratives that detail that war happened? If I go to a history textbook and it says that Australia declared war against Germany in 1939, does that mean I am being commanded as an Australian to go to war against Germany today? Of course not. Historical narrative is exactly that: a narrative of past events that help our understanding of the present and future.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

And does that accord with the Bible? Did they do what was right in the eyes of God? I don't think they did, as I can't see any justification for their actions from Scripture, which means that they were using the label of Christianity to hide their own greed. Does that make them Christian?



Wrong, Christians understand that they are morally equal at best, inferior at worst, for just as Jesus put all others before himself, so should those who believe in him.

And don't think I haven't noticed that you still aren't even touching on the teachings of Islam, which is what this discussion is about.

I dont disagree, but when its the pope and the institution of the church doing this, its hard to fob it off as "theyre not real christians"

I think all faiths, inc islam, get manipulated and exploited for power and political gain, and for the justification of all sorts of horrid acts. None are better or worse, and i include my own faith (buddhist)

 

[The Speaker]

I dont disagree, but when its the pope and the institution of the church doing this, its hard to fob it off as "theyre not real christians"

It's really not. Christianity was not built on institutions, and certainly not on the Pope. Despite the Roman church's attempts to rehabilitate the image of everyone who has been pontiff, I believe there are a number of Popes whose faith could quite rightly be brought into question. The only thing that defines a Christian is this: that they believe that Jesus is both Saviour and Lord of all. Their church, their title, their insitution, none of these matter.

I think all faiths, inc islam, get manipulated and exploited for power and political gain, and for the justification of all sorts of horrid acts. None are better or worse, and i include my own faith (buddhist)

Well, your stated belief on this topic certainly matches your worldview, but the facts don't seem to match up with the idea that 'none are better or worse'.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

It's really not. Christianity was not built on institutions, and certainly not on the Pope. Despite the Roman church's attempts to rehabilitate the image of everyone who has been pontiff, I believe there are a number of Popes whose faith could quite rightly be brought into question. The only thing that defines a Christian is this: that they believe that Jesus is both Saviour and Lord of all. Their church, their title, their insitution, none of these matter.



Well, your stated belief on this topic certainly matches your worldview, but the facts don't seem to match up with the idea that 'none are better or worse'.

your view of facts - your personal beliefs are all over your claims too

 

[The Speaker]

your view of facts - your personal beliefs are all over your claims too

Don't go all postmodern, new age on me now, even if your belief system is the basis for it.

Can you dispute the fact that the commands of Allah and the example of Mohammad give reason for a Muslim to be violent, while Jesus' commands and examples give reason for a Christian to do the opposite?