Conspiracy Theory Mandates, Lockdowns, Covid-19, SARS-Cov-2 Thread - Get vaccinated.

[Malifice]

No because its been clearly established that canabalism isn't acceptable in our society. You may have missed the earlier post where I was talking about democracies thriving primarily because of their acceptance of the "argument of ideas"? Science functions like that too. Open debate is the basis of democracies and science. The presentation of a theory (or policy) which then gets torn to shreds, and the prevailing position as accepted by most becomes the new truth. Its the sharpening of the theory that comes from its scrutinisation and democracy that differs from authoratative systems that demand adherence to a dictate.

And our parliamentarians are free to engage in that debate in the House, on behalf of the electorate they represent.

Liberalism trumps democracy. If 70 percent of people demanded an illiberal law, the liberal State has an obligation to ignore that demand.

We dont make laws based on Nationalism (nation first) or Fundamentalism (God first). Liberalism (individual first) only.

 

[Balls In]

I know what liberalism is. It's not 'let people go around harming others'.

Benevolent authoritarianism?.

 

[Malifice]

Benevolent authoritarianism?.

To an extent yes. If the majority demanded an illiberal law (death penalty for a religious minority), the liberal State has an obligation to ignore that demand.

 

[No SPIN]

Only 25% higher cases even with Delta plus 22% vaccination rate... According to the experts here Delta is way more than 25% more contagious so really combined with the low vax they should be seeing upwards of 70-80% higher cases compared to previous pre-delta waves no?

Wave has already peaked BTW - it's on a downtrend unlike majority of EU countries which are still trending upwards towards. Again if the vax actually worked as well as you say it does then it would be black and white - instead I struggle to find a single case study that shows the 'vax' reducing transmission to any sort of degree or factor that the big pharma companies told us (75-90% reduction).

View attachment 1293482

Ireland - one of the highest vax rates in EU.. Look at that graph and keep a straight face while you tell me the vax is great at stopping transmission. They make Bulgaria look pretty good.
View attachment 1293485

Bulgaria = ~7 million population
Ireland = 5 million population

Bulgaria - wave peaked - now at ~2000 cases a day.
Ireland - wave still not peaked - currently ~5000 cases a day.

Bulgaria = 22% vax rate
Ireland = 90% vax rate

Tell me again how well the vax stops transmission please

Case fatality rate in Bulgaria is 400% higher than Ireland, and Australia both high Vaxxed Countries
So there's your answer that the Jab works.

COVID-19 Data Explorer

Explore global data on COVID-19.

ourworldindata.org

 

[Balls In]

And our parliamentarians are free to engage in that debate in the House, on behalf of the electorate they represent.

That's elitism. Why can't the plebs debate these issues and use it to pick representatives who actually represent them?

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Case fatality rate in Bulgaria is 400% higher than Ireland, and Australia both high Vaxxed Countries
So there's your answer that the Jab works.

COVID-19 Data Explorer

Explore global data on COVID-19.

ourworldindata.org

Or testing rates.

 

[No SPIN]

That's elitism. Why can't the plebs debate these issues and use it to pick representatives who actually represent them?

have you ever been stopped from voting for the Party or Candidate who best represents you?

 

[Mofra]

That's elitism. Why can't the plebs debate these issues and use it to pick representatives who actually represent them?

In theory that is happens.

In practice we largely just vote who whoever disgusts us the least these days. For some people that choice is made with either a lot of information or in other cases scant information on whoever appeals most to our existing biases.

 

[Malifice]

That's elitism.

No, that's liberalism. That's what it is. We're a liberal State.

Why can't the plebs debate these issues and use it to pick representatives who actually represent them?

They do at election time. Those elected members are then limited in power by the core principles of Liberalism, and any Constitutional limits on their power (separation of the powers etc).

 

[Balls In]

In theory that is happens.

In practice we largely just vote who whoever disgusts us the least these days. For some people that choice is made with either a lot of information or in other cases scant information on whoever appeals most to our existing biases.

The central theme I was exploring was the importance of open debate in a functioning democracy.

 

[Balls In]

No, that's liberalism. That's what it is. We're a liberal State.



They do at election time. Those elected members are then limited in power by the core principles of Liberalism, and any Constitutional limits on their power (separation of the powers etc).

What you are advocating is benevolent authoritarianism by an unrepresentative liberal elite.

 

[Mofra]

The central theme I was exploring was the importance of open debate in a functioning democracy.

We do, moreso than at any time before. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of online platforms that allow us to do so. Many that did not exist just a few years ago.

 

[Balls In]

We do, moreso than at any time before. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of online platforms that allow us to do so. Many that did not exist just a few years ago.

Not if you use this very thread as an analogy

 

[Malifice]

So what you are advocating is benevolent authoritarianism by an unrepresentative liberal elite.

No, I'm doing so such thing.

That is a form of communism.

No it's nothing like Communism you twit. Communism is 'control of the means of production by the State' in a unitary party system.

If you think [Liberal State/ Free market Capitalism] = [Communism] you have rocks in your head.

 

[Balls In]

No, I'm doing so such thing.



No it's nothing like Communism you twit. Communism is 'control of the means of production by the State' in a unitary party system.

If you think [Liberal State/ Free market Capitalism] = [Communism] you have rocks in your head.

You literally just said liberalism trump's democracy and advocated benevolent authoritarianism by a small elite who know best. That is exactly how communism has been sold for all of time.

 

[No SPIN]

Or testing rates.

Plenty of stats around for you to try and prove if this theory is correct.

 

[Mofra]

Not if you use this very thread as an analogy

So democratic debate is constrained if you restrict the example to 0.001% of available forums for debate which is forbidding outright lies about Covid but allows everything else?
That's quite the qualifier.

 

[Malifice]

You literally just said liberalism trump's democracy and advocated benevolent authoritarianism by a small elite who know best.

It does. If my electorate demands me (the representative) to put forward a law that violates the principles of liberty (death squads for an ethnic minority for example), I am under no obligation to advance that law.

We're a liberal State mate. That means something. All laws proposed by the liberal State have to pass the threshold test of complying with liberal principles, and not unreasonably interfere with peoples freedoms to do as they please, unless those freedoms are causing harm to others.

That is exactly how communism has been sold for all of time.

Not when it's occurring in a free market, non unitary, bicameral parliament with an independent judiciary governed by the Rule of Law, where the means of production are privately owned it isn't.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Plenty of stats around for you to try and prove if this theory is correct.

Daily COVID-19 tests per 1,000 people

7-day rolling average. Comparisons across countries are affected by differences in testing policies and reporting methods.

ourworldindata.org

So about half the tests taking population into consideration and for the first few months was about a tenth.

 

[Balls In]

So democratic debate is constrained if you restrict the example to 0.001% of available forums for debate which is forbidding outright lies about Covid but allows everything else?
That's quite the qualifier.

You can't honestly believe that. Facebook, YouTube, Twitter - all of them actively restricting content. You should at least be curious who are these self proclaimed arbiters of truth? As is evidenced they have got so much wrong on so many issues (especially covid). Have also benefited materially.

 

[Balls In]

Not when it's occurring in a free market, non unitary, bicameral parliament with an independent judiciary governed by the Rule of Law, where the means of production are privately owned it isn't.

I'll get back to the rest of that when I can be bothered. How the **** can you say we have been a free market during the past 2 years when the state shuts certain businesses over others? I highlighted the transfer of wealth caused as a direct result. The winners have been multinational big tech, online shopping, public sector and the big departments.The losers have been small and medium domestic private operators.

 

[Better Loosen Up]

I'll get back to the rest of that when I can be bothered. How the fu** can you say we have been a free market during the past 2 years when the state shuts certain businesses over others? I highlighted the transfer of wealth caused as a direct result. The winners have been multinational big tech, online shopping, public sector and the big departments.The losers have been small and medium domestic private operators.

You seem to completely ignore the fact that we have been faced with a pandemic over the last 2 years. These are not normal circumstances.

Your other problem is that you are living in a democratic country where you represent the minority.

 

[Gralin]

I'll get back to the rest of that when I can be bothered. How the fu** can you say we have been a free market during the past 2 years when the state shuts certain businesses over others? I highlighted the transfer of wealth caused as a direct result. The winners have been multinational big tech, online shopping, public sector and the big departments.The losers have been small and medium domestic private operators.

None of that has anything to do with what you were originally complaining about which is being told you can't post whatever you want free of consequences

 

[Balls In]

None of that has anything to do with what you were originally complaining about which is being told you can't post whatever you want free of consequences

I don't expect you to go through a bunch of posts to see how that discussion evolved. But I do expect you to not just make stuff up. There was no original "complaint".

 

[Balls In]

You seem to completely ignore the fact that we have been faced with a pandemic over the last 2 years. These are not normal circumstances.

Your other problem is that you are living in a democratic country where you represent the minority.

What "minority" do I represent?