Mark Blake - Nuts and Bolts

[you pick one]

This might be a bit left field,lets play one of the following as the no1 ruckman Otto,Blake,Simpson or West.

The no2 ruck to be shared between Hawkins,Mooney and Lonergan in short bursts with the help of the third man up.

I wouldn't expect great hit out stats,but all could go back and cover or go forward and kick a goal.

This would also allow us to play an extra player in the midfield rotation.


I know I'll get, don't want to see Hawkins in the ruck ever again.
Mooney's to old.
Lonergan's not in the best 22.

but would they give you more than Blake,Simpson and West?

 

[Pure_Ownage]

None of Mooney Hawkins or Lonergan are ruckmen. The second ruckman needs to be mobile but he should still be a proper ruckman.

 

[you pick one]

None of Mooney Hawkins or Lonergan are ruckmen. The second ruckman needs to be mobile but he should still be a proper ruckman.

Agreed but if you don't have one that can contribute you might have to improvise.

 

[Rustin' Man]

I thought the use of Trent West on Sunday was as a trial as the 2nd ruckman - in the Leigh Brown mould as a mobile ruck-rover type rather than as a pure tap ruckman.

BTW just saw in a report on the AFL website under the title "Cats to stick with youngsters", the following item: Nathan Vardy ... wasn't sighted in round one of the NAB Cup and is likely to also sit out the clash with the Saints. "Nathan had a bit of a setback - a sore leg," Caracella said.

I saw Dawson Simpson prior to the game near the Cats' Shop. He looked to be walking okay. Maybe it was just the rotational stuff the coaching staff appear to be doing with the NAB Cup.

 

[maxy87]

They'd get killed, particularly Vardy. I'm reasonably confident both West and Vardy could be good supporting #2 ruckmen (particularly Vardy who I have high hopes for) but I don't think either of them are the right physical specimen for the #1 ruck week in week out. Based on his size Dawson is probably the best go for the role, in tandem with either of the more mobile rucks.

Realistically both Ottens and Blake will be off the list at the end of the year, so unless Dawson can make some strides to the extent where the club feels he can take on that role in 2012 and the three young ruckmen can carry it in 2012, then a shopping trip may need to be considered.

Ok point taken PO. Let's substitute Vardy with Dawson then. One of them needs to make significant strides this year like you've said. The only way that will happen is if they have the heat put in them. We have the luxury at the moment of a quality midfield that can nurse on of them along for a little bit. What we need to decide, if I may use a metaphor, is whether or not we persevere with Blake who is barely treading water or chuck Daws or West into the deep end early on and at least see if they can swim.

If Blake starts 1st ruck each week that's another season where Dawson and Wests development is delayed and perhaps they get pursued by other clubs willing to give them more opportunities. With Otto not long for the football world we'll be in a situation like you said where we'll need to go shopping for a ready made ruckman.

I guess it all depends on what Scott thinks is the best lineup in the end

 

[meto]

Re: Blake Nuts and Bolts

My patience with Blake has worn thin. I thought that, like his dad, he would take a few years to blossom. But Mark hasn't really progressed. He might be a good tap ruckman, but his lack of pace, inability to mark, kick and do much else makes him a liability with no value. He will disappear into oblivion.

Expect Nathan Vardy to well and truly leap frog Blake in 2011.

As already stated in another post his great asset is at centre bounces, which he does well, another is his durability.

Don't know about clearing him out yet, can the others stand up all season? I think that's beyond a kid (Vardy) who hasn't yet experienced senior AFL, lets just hope he can cut it first.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Agreed but if you don't have one that can contribute you might have to improvise.

West or Vardy are as much as I'd want to improvise. Can play forward but are still proper ruckmen. That's what I expect we'll go with.

 

[noclashjumpers]

West or Vardy are as much as I'd want to improvise. Can play forward but are still proper ruckmen. That's what I expect we'll go with.

It seems that I haven't being paying as close attention to this pre-season as I should.

Where is Dawson Simpson?? Why is Vardy suddenly ahead of him.

There were many on this board last year saying that Simpson was ahead of Blake, now he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

It seems that I haven't being paying as close attention to this pre-season as I should.

Where is Dawson Simpson?? Why is Vardy suddenly ahead of him.

There were many on this board last year saying that Simpson was ahead of Blake, now he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth.

Simpson probably is ahead of Blake (I hope so).

Re the bolded, Vardy is not 'ahead' of Blake, it is simply that with the change to 21 + 1, we have three ruckmen fighting for 1st ruck-Ottens, Simpson, Blake and two fighting for second ruck-West and Vardy, and these are distinctly different roles because of the new rule.

Vardy is only 'ahead' in the sense that he has less competition for a game than Dawson does (unless Dawson can improve his marking and forward play etc).

 

[Casey Cat]

I have never understood why so many people talk West up. Anyone else see that West registered 0 stats in the game vs Bulldogs? And Majak Daw with one massive centre bounce hit out did enough to expose West as a ruck fraud.

Hopefully Simpson has the ability to match his massive frame.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

I have never understood why so many people talk West up. Anyone else see that West registered 0 stats in the game vs Bulldogs? And Majak Daw with one massive centre bounce hit out did enough to expose West as a ruck fraud.

Hopefully Simpson has the ability to match his massive frame.

Matters not. Daw with a massive leap would have beat whoever was there probably. And Daw thrashed Blake far more than he thrashed West.

More to the point, West took multiple contested marks which Blake has never done in his life and probably will never do.

I'm not saying West is a great player and I hope we develop or get better ruckman than him, but West was clearly ahead of Blake on the weekend by miles.

 

[you pick one]

I have never understood why so many people talk West up. Anyone else see that West registered 0 stats in the game vs Bulldogs? And Majak Daw with one massive centre bounce hit out did enough to expose West as a ruck fraud.

Hopefully Simpson has the ability to match his massive frame.

Wouldn't expect to see it on Wests highlights tape got absolutely monstered by the kid.

 

[you pick one]

Matters not. Daw with a massive leap would have beat whoever was there probably. And Daw thrashed Blake far more than he thrashed West.

More to the point, West took multiple contested marks which Blake has never done in his life and probably will never do.

I'm not saying West is a great player and I hope we develop or get better ruckman than him, but West was clearly ahead of Blake on the weekend by miles.

Gilding the Lillie there PO two for the two games, but as I acknowledged in an earlier post Blakes quoter for a year.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Gilding the Lillie there PO two for the two games, but as I acknowledged in an earlier post Blakes quoter for a year.

Even one contested mark would still be more than Blake.

 

[Vdubs]

Matters not. Daw with a massive leap would have beat whoever was there probably. And Daw thrashed Blake far more than he thrashed West.

More to the point, West took multiple contested marks which Blake has never done in his life and probably will never do.

I'm not saying West is a great player and I hope we develop or get better ruckman than him, but West was clearly ahead of Blake on the weekend by miles.

clearly??? sounds like you'd have said that even if Blake didn't play. Your anti-Blake frustration is unkind.

How would West go one on one against Blake? Mumford did NOT embarrass Blake last year in their one encounter, Blake has not been beaten by King, and I daresay he would account for anything that West could offer. Blake has a Premiership medal and deserved to be in the team. What was West doing, getting HUGE possessions in the 2's? Hardly.

 

[you pick one]

Even one contested mark would still be more than Blake.

That's hard to argue,I think we will learn a lot about our list this weekend PO the Saints have put up a decent side a bit stronger than ours in my opinion a few more bigger bodies.
Think the kids will really be tested just hope we don't cop any injuries don't normally worry about that, but this is straight in the deep end for a few.

 

[Casey Cat]

Matters not. Daw with a massive leap would have beat whoever was there probably. And Daw thrashed Blake far more than he thrashed West.

More to the point, West took multiple contested marks which Blake has never done in his life and probably will never do.

I'm not saying West is a great player and I hope we develop or get better ruckman than him, but West was clearly ahead of Blake on the weekend by miles.

No comment on the 0 stats for West vs Bulldogs?

It's not the first time West hasn't bothered the scorers either.

 

[David the Cat]

clearly??? sounds like you'd have said that even if Blake didn't play. Your anti-Blake frustration is unkind.

How would West go one on one against Blake? Mumford did NOT embarrass Blake last year in their one encounter, Blake has not been beaten by King, and I daresay he would account for anything that West could offer. Blake has a Premiership medal and deserved to be in the team. What was West doing, getting HUGE possessions in the 2's? Hardly.

Yes VD...good points!! Frankly I thought West was ordinary last week on what I saw ( granted only on replay ), but Blake no better either. Pumping up West's tyres reeks of desperation.

Simpson could/should do better and I am looking forward to seeing him play. IF he doesnt crack it, Blake will stay on present indicators ( and I am no Blake fan )

 

[Partridge]

Matters not. Daw with a massive leap would have beat whoever was there probably. And Daw thrashed Blake far more than he thrashed West.

More to the point, West took multiple contested marks which Blake has never done in his life and probably will never do.

I'm not saying West is a great player and I hope we develop or get better ruckman than him, but West was clearly ahead of Blake on the weekend by miles.

I wouldn't say that Daw "thrashed" anyone. Taking a couple of good marks doesn't make you BOG. West did the same thing (in the same game) and he's still getting bagged.

Truth is honestly both number 1 and 2 ruck spots are up for grabs. Ottens is number 1 while he's fit, but he won't be around much longer. Number 2 is pretty much open season. Blake is the best tap ruckman, but offers nothing else. Zero. West is a far better mark, but right now doesn't get enough of the ball. Simpson and Vardy are unknown quantities. Which is why I'm more than happy to see them get thrown in at the deep end. It's what the pre-season is for.

 

[SJ]

I wouldn't say that Daw "thrashed" anyone. Taking a couple of good marks doesn't make you BOG. West did the same thing (in the same game) and he's still getting bagged.

Truth is honestly both number 1 and 2 ruck spots are up for grabs. Ottens is number 1 while he's fit, but he won't be around much longer. Number 2 is pretty much open season. Blake is the best tap ruckman, but offers nothing else. Zero. West is a far better mark, but right now doesn't get enough of the ball. Simpson and Vardy are unknown quantities. Which is why I'm more than happy to see them get thrown in at the deep end. It's what the pre-season is for.

I wouldn't go quite as far as saying Blake offers nothing else, when for four years now he has often provided an extra link in the chain at half-back and I don't remember him butchering many of those disposals. Can't think of too many second ruckman who do anything more, to be honest.

Fact is last year Blake averaged 2.2 kicks, 7.8 handballs and 2.3 marks per game. Compare that to West with 2.3 kicks, 5.8 handballs and 2.8 marks per game and I don't think you're getting a much better deal there.

West is probably more mobile, but that doesn't mean he is any more effective once the ruck contests are over.

Agree with your point though, our ruck stocks going forward are now particularly bare. Neither Blake or West are the answer, and I'm hoping Simpson and Vardy come along quickly because I think they'd make a good combination going forward.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

clearly??? sounds like you'd have said that even if Blake didn't play. Your anti-Blake frustration is unkind.

How would West go one on one against Blake? Mumford did NOT embarrass Blake last year in their one encounter, Blake has not been beaten by King, and I daresay he would account for anything that West could offer. Blake has a Premiership medal and deserved to be in the team. What was West doing, getting HUGE possessions in the 2's? Hardly.

Rubbish. If Blake didn't play I wouldn't have said anything. All I'm telling you is West took more marks than him and Blake didn't take a single contested mark. These are facts. If this classes as 'anti Blake' then some people can't acknowledge facts and are being too precious.

As regards West, he didn't play particularly well, I never said he had a great game, but at least he marked the football.

In broader terms though, I agree with SJ. Neither Blake nor West are the answer, but I can't see how one can justify picking Blake over West based on the weekend. Hopefully Simpson/Vardy steps up and then this debate will become null and void.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

I wouldn't say that Daw "thrashed" anyone. Taking a couple of good marks doesn't make you BOG. West did the same thing (in the same game) and he's still getting bagged.

Truth is honestly both number 1 and 2 ruck spots are up for grabs. Ottens is number 1 while he's fit, but he won't be around much longer. Number 2 is pretty much open season. Blake is the best tap ruckman, but offers nothing else. Zero. West is a far better mark, but right now doesn't get enough of the ball. Simpson and Vardy are unknown quantities. Which is why I'm more than happy to see them get thrown in at the deep end. It's what the pre-season is for.

Agree with that summary.

Both West and Blake have flaws, I simply think one has more capacity to improve than the other.

Hopefully this pre season will provide us some answers because the cupboard is somewhat bare.

Vardy's the one I'm really hopeful for.

 

[darren forssman]

I wouldn't go quite as far as saying Blake offers nothing else, when for four years now he has often provided an extra link in the chain at half-back and I don't remember him butchering many of those disposals. Can't think of too many second ruckman who do anything more, to be honest.

he is actively avoided.

 

[maxy87]

West hasn't had a free ride for 4 seasons in the hope that he'll come good so there's no way of accurately comparing the two. We are talking about what we believe West COULD offer the team against the taps but nothing else that Blake HAS offered over that time. IMO there's no way in he'll that Blake commands a spot in the team if Ottens is fit and one of West or Simpson show promise before Round 1.

As for second ruckman in other sides, McEvoy, Roughead and Brown spring to mind as formidable second rucks. Throw Patty Ryder, Sam Jacobs and e even Jackson Trengove into that pile too. They all provide something other than taps

 

[bloodygoose]

Blake is unco and Daw made him look the dinosaur he is. The game has passed him by I'm afraid.

West can mark, shows some mongrel and puts his head over the ball. Give him a run of games (which he's never had) to show what he can do.