Matt Rendell situation thread #3

[Geoffa32]

I liken Australia's colonization, or take over, to the movie Avatar. That's what I thought of when I was watching the movie. Everyone I say this to looks at me with a perplexed look.

The story of Pocahontas (which is essentially the Avatar story) does relate to our history, and that of any colonisation of a native society. I can see the connection.

 

[ManInTheArena]

The story of Pocahontas (which is essentially the Avatar story) does relate to our history, and that of any colonisation of a native society. I can see the connection.

Oh right, cool, I didn't know it was based on anything. I just googled "Pocahontas"

 

[srv23]

Was this a direct attack on the Aboriginals? Did they point or look in their direction? Was it obvious that it was targeted at the Aboriginals? Because if you have no evidence and are just making assumptions, you're no better than Misfud whose assumptions have made him out to look like a complete dick.

And I'm not ashamed to admit that I've been standing next to an Aboriginal and thought he bloody stinks, but that's not because he had dark skin, that's just because he bloody stank. Similarly though, I have stood next to numerous caucasians who have stunk just as bad and I've had to move away from them. Unfortunately though it's only acceptable to say that white people stink, say anything similar about a dark skinned person and you're a stupid racist prick.

Yes - was very obvious they were talking about them. Pointing gesturing towards them looking at them and holding her nose. Then made a few derogatory comments about them. Look I didn't post that as a woe is me I've been racially vilified story. I have but only very occasionally. Was just trying to point out the fact that white people can't understand what it feels like based on the history behind it and just brought up a few stories to show that it is still very much present in our society. That's all. Apologies if that's what it came across like. Completely unintended

 

[macca23]

Yes - was very obvious they were talking about them. Pointing gesturing towards them looking at them and holding her nose. Then made a few derogatory comments about them.

I don't doubt that what you have said did happen, not at all.

However the one thing you don't know is that they wouldn't have done exactly the same thing if there were white people who stunk like polecats standing behind them.

Even the derogatory comments are not racist unless they made reference to their colour as part of those comments.

If they did, your comments are justified. If they didn't, you are playing the racist card based on assumption which may well not be true.

Which one was it?

 

[srv23]

I don't doubt that what you have said did happen, not at all.

However the one thing you don't know is that they wouldn't have done exactly the same thing if there were white people who stunk like polecats standing behind them.

Even the derogatory comments are not racist unless they made reference to their colour as part of those comments.

If they did, your comments are justified. If they didn't, you are playing the racist card based on assumption which may well not be true.

Which one was it?

There was no smell at all too even comment on. The comments referenced their skin colour / racial background. I am not overly sensitive in general. I have heard plenty of things that could be perceived as racist but that's not how it was intended and haven't been offended but I have also heard things that are dead set racist no matter how you look at it. I don't think I'm easily offended at all - this incident was clearly racist. And for what it's worth my husband, father in law and brother in law who are all white and were there all thought it was racist and equally as offensive.

 

[macca23]

There was no smell at all too even comment on. The comments referenced their skin colour / racial background. I am not overly sensitive in general. I have heard plenty of things that could be perceived as racist but that's not how it was intended and haven't been offended but I have also heard things that are dead set racist no matter how you look at it. I don't think I'm easily offended at all - this incident was clearly racist. And for what it's worth my husband, father in law and brother in law who are all white and were there all thought it was racist and equally as offensive.

Fair enough. That's not acceptable under any circumstances then.

 

[Allefgib]

Fair enough. That's not acceptable under any circumstances then.

Agreed.

Monk, did you hear about james cameron's trip to The northern albertan oil sands a few years back? Very avatar ish situation with the indig tribes up there.

On niki's comments. So the researcher had to be concious of their whiteness as the y could be judged by the indig as the same as the other whites who had done bad things? Whilst I get that to a degree, it is a profound form of racism, and I believe one that holds us back from moving forward.

 

[Southerntakeover]

I'll never understand why seemingly intelligent people so desperately try to seperate the concept of racism from its history of exploitation and atrocity. Its the same backward assed thinking that gets people swearing black and blue that affirmative action is horrible racism that should be stamped out.

 

[jo172]

I'll never understand why seemingly intelligent people so desperately try to seperate the concept of racism from its history of exploitation and atrocity. Its the same backward assed thinking that gets people swearing black and blue that affirmative action is horrible racism that should be stamped out.

Agreeing with ST. Doesn't feel right.

Trying to look at comments regarding race without the context of history is ignorant and pointless.

It's also curiously only done by those who don't experience real discrimination*

*I'm the most middle class white male in the history of the world and haven't experienced any discrimination that I didn't deserve ever.

 

[jenny61_99]

It appears while Macca may have thrown his support behind Mifsud (and I'm thinking Andy was speaking more on what Mifsud achieved in the past than what he may or may not be able to in the future), others have not.

http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2012/04/06/297751_ntsport.html

 

[Allefgib]

I'll never understand why seemingly intelligent people so desperately try to seperate the concept of racism from its history of exploitation and atrocity. Its the same backward assed thinking that gets people swearing black and blue that affirmative action is horrible racism that should be stamped out.

Look I think I get what your saying, but we can't move forward ignoring issues of race if we can't get past the past. Feel free to expand. Nothing is more frustrating than having it implied you don't understand something, and noone is willing to help you bridge the gap.

Is it ok to still have issues with the germans or japanese? Plenty of atrocities to process there.

Obviously, moving past the past is incredibly complex and appears to be all but unattainable in some situations. I have little to offer in how to achieve what I strongly feel needs to be achieved, but that doesn't change the fact that if we can't work through past wrongs we'll never get anywhere near a society where race is not an issue. I start with that as my base thought and work back from it to process any given situation.

I think racism is not solely about atrocities and exploration either. They are more outcomes in some scenarios yeah?

 

[Southerntakeover]

No, they're fundamental to understanding the relevant issues.

You cant simply wave a magic wand and say 'ok we're all equal now. Why?

Because we havent achieved any sort of balancing of the fundamental inequality which was established through the history of racial discrimination, and exploitation. If you were to suddenly declare 'all are equal, and noone will recieve any advantage', it would permanently entrench those minorities at the bottom of the socio-economic classes.

Until the playing field is levelled, its necessary to have an 'affirmative action' style of approach to racial issues. That is: we need to protect (in the sense of illegalising discrimination etc) and support vulnerable minorities. Down the track, if we actually manage to achieve meaningful equality within society, i.e. there arent minorities who are overrepresented in danger groupings, and underrepresented amongst those with opportunity, then we can discuss true equality.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Whilst the above is true, it should be recognised that some affirmative action plans have been fundamentally flawed in their execution.

I'm sure Alex on Fire will be able to tell you more about boys in schools than I can. Take it away Alex.

 

[jenny61_99]

Whilst the above is true, it should be recognised that some affirmative action plans have been fundamentally flawed in their execution.

I'm sure Alex on Fire will be able to tell you more about boys in schools than I can. Take it away Alex.

I can pick up on that one SP (but maybe not what you were intending?). My boy was at a QLD state school where the entire philosophy (led by a female principal/2 female deputies and not ONE male teacher) was focussed on helping our girls succeed and the boys were left behind. All the stories they read, all the projects they did, were female based. In grade 4, my son knitted a panda and sewed a teddy bear. Now, I've got no problems with him learning to knit or sew - but could we not make it something relevant to boys? It is clearly an issue in Brisbane schools, where come grade 6, many public schools are almost completely devoid of boy students, as parents have taken their boys out of the public system and moved them in to the private system. We did, and it was the best thing we could have done.

 

[Allefgib]

No, they're fundamental to understanding the relevant issues.

You cant simply wave a magic wand and say 'ok we're all equal now. Why?

Because we havent achieved any sort of balancing of the fundamental inequality which was established through the mate of racial discrimination, and exploitation. If you were to suddenly declare 'all are equal, and noone will recieve any advantage', it would permanently entrench those minorities at the bottom of the socio-economic classes.

Until the playing field is levelled, its necessary to have an 'affirmative action' style of approach to racial issues. That is: we need to protect (in the sense of illegalising discrimination etc) and support vulnerable minorities. Down the track, if we actually manage to achieve meaningful equality within society, i.e. there arent minorities who are overrepresented in danger groupings, and underrepresented amongst those with opportunity, then we can discuss true equality.

Mate, not once did I talk about affirmative action or immediately being equal. All I focussed on was that ultimately the focus needs, imo, to be on working through the past to get past it, or we'll never get to where I think most off us want to be. If affirmative action is a way to get there, great. But I would be concerned on the focus being on affirmative action rather than it being a means too an end.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Spot on Jenny, exactly what I was referring to.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Mate, not once did I talk about affirmative action or immediately being equal. All I focussed on was that ultimately the focus needs, imo, to be on working through the past to get past it, or we'll never get to where I think most off us want to be. If affirmative action is a way to get there, great. But I would be concerned on the focus being on affirmative action rather than it being a means too an end.

Of course the obvious long term goal is substantive equality. The problem is, the goal is a long way off.

Your initial comments appeared to be calling for immediate equality in treatment (which is an attack on the logic behind affirmative action etc). Now, if ive misinterpreted it, fine, but if that was how it was meant I disagree for the reasons I outlined.

Happy to leave it here though. I dont really want to get bogged down into this debate too heavily. I just felt uncomfortable that i feel some have begun to use Rendell as a patsy so they can fight the culture wars. (not saying you were).

 

[Southerntakeover]

I can pick up on that one SP (but maybe not what you were intending?). My boy was at a QLD state school where the entire philosophy (led by a female principal/2 female deputies and not ONE male teacher) was focussed on helping our girls succeed and the boys were left behind. All the stories they read, all the projects they did, were female based. In grade 4, my son knitted a panda and sewed a teddy bear. Now, I've got no problems with him learning to knit or sew - but could we not make it something relevant to boys? It is clearly an issue in Brisbane schools, where come grade 6, many public schools are almost completely devoid of boy students, as parents have taken their boys out of the public system and moved them in to the private system. We did, and it was the best thing we could have done.

I have alot of problem with the characteristic of knitting and sewing as 'girl based'.

With that said, i'll leave it alone. Suffice to say, in application theres often alot left to be desired.

 

[Slippery Pete]

I have alot of problem with the characteristic of knitting and sewing as 'girl based'.

Do you have a lot of problem with the characteristic of wearing a skirt as "girl based?"

 

[jenny61_99]

I have alot of problem with the characteristic of knitting and sewing as 'girl based'.

With that said, i'll leave it alone. Suffice to say, in application theres often alot left to be desired.

I don't know ONE male in my vast circle of friends that either knits or sews. Damn wish they would! But as I said, I have no problems with them knitting or sewing but let's make it something that is useful for them. Sew a hem, darn a sock, knit a footy scarf . But blanket stitching a teddy bear? Apparently, had we stayed at the school last year, they would have made a handbag. meanwhile, at the new all boys school, they made a package that would safely bring the ashes urn back to australia, create a solar system model and a gold mining diorama.

 

[ruscy002]

It appears while Macca may have thrown his support behind Mifsud (and I'm thinking Andy was speaking more on what Mifsud achieved in the past than what he may or may not be able to in the future), others have not.

http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2012/04/06/297751_ntsport.html

It would seem that Macca doesn't quite understand the meaning of "untenable". All the good work you've done doesn't mean shit if you make a mistake that compromises the ability to do your job. He hasn't been charged with DUI or indecent exposure or something, he breached the trust of the very people he's employed to help.

Michael Long has joined Rioli in saying the trust is gone:

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/afl-ambassador-michael-long-concerned-about-jason-mifsud/story-e6frecm3-1226320133799

 

[ManInTheArena]

I don't know ONE male in my vast circle of friends that either knits or sews.

I don't know one female that does other than my mum who is 60 odd. Stupid thing to be teaching in school anymore, full stop.

 

[Southerntakeover]

I don't know ONE male in my vast circle of friends that either knits or sews. Damn wish they would! But as I said, I have no problems with them knitting or sewing but let's make it something that is useful for them. Sew a hem, darn a sock, knit a footy scarf . But blanket stitching a teddy bear? Apparently, had we stayed at the school last year, they would have made a handbag. meanwhile, at the new all boys school, they made a package that would safely bring the ashes urn back to australia, create a solar system model and a gold mining diorama.

Look, gender stereotyping, and 'womens role' thinking is the exact sort of thing that an affirmative action program should be fighting against.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Do you have a lot of problem with the characteristic of wearing a skirt as "girl based?"

Is this really the path you want to go down?

I dont feel like women have to dress in any particular way. And if you want to wear a skirt, I have no issue with that.

 

[Allefgib]

And we're done here. Over the magic number.

Continued here: http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=928975