MM's Coaching Record

[kevind]

Answer to all...
All the teams below us on the ladder at the moment.

It is really pointless bemoaning things you cannot change.
I fully understand how god damned frustrating it is being a Collingwood supporter but to be honest I cannot remember a time in my lifetime at least when we did have a top 4 midfield. We have always had a cobbled together side even in 1990. We always have a team full of potential, half of whom are considered "hacks" by a lot of their supporters. some rise to it some don't but I always appreciate those who tried, even in vain, because without them there is no side.
Sometimes you have to put our head between your legs and hope the boys can do the job...even the best coach's in the world have to do this often. You're dealing with people and they are not always the best for the job but what do you do...forfeit...we're a great club, we will always try to win the flag every year. We have a shit success rate but we will always try...the Collingwood way is what we have lived with for the last 50 years and I can't see it changing in a hurry so if you can't get used to it you better find something less strenuous. I have not had fingernails for twenty five years....


And just on a small point. No supporter has ever won a premiership for their team. But many teams have won a premiership for their supporters.

But you can change poor recruiting!!!!!!!! Bad recruiting does NOT have to be our lot in life This is my whole point, we as supporters should not put up with the rubbish dished up in the last 15 years drafting, bar about 3 of those years.

My fingernails are in order and watching the Pies is not strenuous for me. At the start of the year I looked at our list and thought, we will finish about 12th. They have done a lot better than I thought. There have been some other positives as well. Medhurst has reached a new level, Pendleberry and Thomas are progressing well, Anthony looks a good player, Harry O'Brien is improving, Wellingham looks to be a reasonable player and Brown is showing signs that he may be okay. I am certainly not feeling sad, bitter or twisted.

It simply frustrates me to see supporters continually over hyping our team. Then when things go astray as against the Bombers, they make every excuse under the sun eg, the coach; the umpires; we were flat;we're better than them, it's you negative supporters;it's just we didn't turn up to play, oh we lost that one but don't worry, we beat Geelong, we were within 5 points of a premiership last year and we will every game from here and win the premiership. It is all deluded rubbish.

What we need to do is recognise our faults (ie.poor midfield, poor disposal,lack of ruckman etc) and realise the only way to fix these problems is to draft well. This will take many years of course but until we can recruit 2 quality midfielders, find a decent ruckman and phase out the veritable plague of players with poor disposal, the premiership will continue to elude us.

 

[Pie eyed]

But you can change poor recruiting!!!!!!!! Bad recruiting does NOT have to be our lot in life.

I wholly agree with 99% of what you say here, but my point is, and will remain until I see evidence to the contrary, that no matter who we recruit, when we are always going to be a cobbled together side. Largely because the way the draft works a team which is consistently in the top 8+ sides as we generally are does not get a look in at the best young players without giving up a player we have already developed to a point were he is valuable to another club. Valuable enough to give us an early first round pick.
We are and will always being robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Even when we do occasionally grab a first round pick, there is no guarantee they will come up.
It is a matter of perception.
3 Years ago Geelong were perceived as a try hard, middle of the road side who often forfeited sometimes huge leads and did not know how to finish off a side. They did not draft their way to the side of today they developed what they had.

We won the 1990 flag with a very much less than all-star side.

In any event we can only do anything about our list after the years is over, would you agree. Then it is a free for all. All come under consideration and we will be faced with another drain from our experienced players. A shortfall we will have to address but not now.

 

[tess]

But isn't MM the farmer in charge of the people buying our Cattle?

The Buck stops where......

 

[Nardz]

and recruiting isnt the be all and end all. There's also somethin called player development.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

This is the very reason I stayed away from this topic. Unfortunately most posters don't realise there are "spies among us" who are encouraged by the CFC admin to disrupt this kind of serious discussion with personal attacks and accusations of vendetta's.

Maybe you could lobby the merchandising department to include a tinfoil number to the caps and hats range.

 

[kevind]

and recruiting isnt the be all and end all. There's also somethin called player development.

That's true. But it's a bit like making a suit. You can have the best sewing machines and the best machinists and designers, but if the cloth is not good, it will always be a cheap suit that has been marginally improved at the edges.

Is our player development not been over hyped as well? I mean, look at Stanley, Cook, Illes , Cox, Goldsack, Dawes etc, they don't seem to be showing any real signs of development. Cox is the perfect example, If he developed his accountability and pressure on opponents when we didn't have the ball, he would be a regular at AFL level. Or are these players best described by the former paragraph?

 

[adzarani]

But you can change poor recruiting!!!!!!!! Bad recruiting does NOT have to be our lot in life This is my whole point, we as supporters should not put up with the rubbish dished up in the last 15 years drafting, bar about 3 of those years.

My fingernails are in order and watching the Pies is not strenuous for me. At the start of the year I looked at our list and thought, we will finish about 12th. They have done a lot better than I thought. There have been some other positives as well. Medhurst has reached a new level, Pendleberry and Thomas are progressing well, Anthony looks a good player, Harry O'Brien is improving, Wellingham looks to be a reasonable player and Brown is showing signs that he may be okay. I am certainly not feeling sad, bitter or twisted.

It simply frustrates me to see supporters continually over hyping our team. Then when things go astray as against the Bombers, they make every excuse under the sun eg, the coach; the umpires; we were flat;we're better than them, it's you negative supporters;it's just we didn't turn up to play, oh we lost that one but don't worry, we beat Geelong, we were within 5 points of a premiership last year and we will every game from here and win the premiership. It is all deluded rubbish.

What we need to do is recognise our faults (ie.poor midfield, poor disposal,lack of ruckman etc) and realise the only way to fix these problems is to draft well. This will take many years of course but until we can recruit 2 quality midfielders, find a decent ruckman and phase out the veritable plague of players with poor disposal, the premiership will continue to elude us.

Let me summarise what you are saying:

MM is not responsible in any way for the list

MM is not responsible in any way for their strength or fitness

MM is not responsible in any way for their skill levels

MM is not responsible in any way for motivating the players

MM is not responsible in any way for developing the players

his tactics are a bit average though, and he plays favourites

but the real problem is recruiting, our list is bottom 4


Let me summarise what I am saying:


MM is ultimately responsible for the list

MM is ultimately responsible for their fitness

MM is ultimately responsible for their skill levels

MM is ultimately responsible for motivating the players

MM is ultimately responsible for developing the players

his tactics can be brilliant but only work 50% of the time

he is into his 9th season, the time for excuses is over

he has set himself up as the most important person to our onfield success

HE MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY!!


If the media was all over him, Sam Newman was making fun of him (grey wig etc), write ups in the paper were picking apart his record, we would see rapid overnight improvement at Collingwood. We would see hungry desperate players, we would see MM pulling out all the stops as he did in 01,02 & 03 (excl GF) our side would be immediately better because MM would have to prove himself to the football world all over again.

Until MM has something to prove again, it's just a job........make no mistake!

 

[adzarani]

Is our player development not been over hyped as well? I mean, look at Stanley, Cook, Illes , Cox, Goldsack, Dawes etc, they don't seem to be showing any real signs of development. Cox is the perfect example, If he developed his accountability and pressure on opponents when we didn't have the ball, he would be a regular at AFL level. Or are these players best described by the former paragraph?

Who is ultimately responsible for developing these players.

MM cannot pick kids. He just grabs a bunch of them, tries them all for 5 minutes each hoping that one will basically show himself to be a ready made player, and throws the rest away.......he has been doing it for 9 years.

Look at how Lethal brings in his kids, LM is much better at assesing a prospect than MM. Look at how he brought in Adcock or Rischitelli, neither of those would have made it at Collingwood because they both took "too long" to develop at AFL level. But LM knows how to pick the kids MM doesn't.

If he had the foresight to pick the right kids in the senior side and stick with them he might have a list like Geelong does now. Go back and look at Geelong 2003 and see how they persisted with players, compare that to Collingwood 2003 and how MM churns young players in and out of the game, and doesn't develop them at all.

 

[kevind]

Who is ultimately responsible for developing these players.

MM cannot pick kids. He just grabs a bunch of them, tries them all for 5 minutes each hoping that one will basically show himself to be a ready made player, and throws the rest away.......he has been doing it for 9 years.

Look at how Lethal brings in his kids, LM is much better at assesing a prospect than MM. Look at how he brought in Adcock or Rischitelli, neither of those would have made it at Collingwood because they both took "too long" to develop at AFL level. But LM knows how to pick the kids MM doesn't.

If he had the foresight to pick the right kids in the senior side and stick with them he might have a list like Geelong does now. Go back and look at Geelong 2003 and see how they persisted with players, compare that to Collingwood 2003 and how MM churns young players in and out of the game, and doesn't develop them at all.

Mate , I would like to see MM go for the reason that I am sick to death of this around the boundary stuff we play. It drives me nuts, Bring on a coach that will play dow the corridor.

But if you think that the group of players we have at the moment will win us a premiership any time soon, you are living in lala land. We have a very ordinary midfield and dreadful disposal. If this is MMs fault because he chose the players, then by all means go for his jugular.

You seem to think like the club does that you can recruit any old hack and turn him into silk, through development. You can't. Development is the icing, not the cake. A player who is a poor kick at 18-20 yerars of age will always be a poor kick eg Ben Reid and Jaxson Barham.

 

[Billy Picken]

MM and Eddie have an appaling record at the club and the fact is that everyone forgets is that they are not Accountable to anyone! This pure arrogance from eddie has cost is big name trade players in the past as they refuse to deal with him. Supporters GET OUT THERE and voice your opinions

I love this club but enough is enough.

1. MM and Eddie have to go, These players get paid big$$ make them accountable
2. Recruitment Dept to be sacked, I remember the nightmares of Frankie Raso's, Andrew Tranquilli's, Ben Kinnear's,ANdrew Pugsley's ...the nigthmares are continuing (cox,iles,cook,lonie etc etc etc etc too many to name)
3. Tough Trades at the end of the year


If anyone thinks we have a chance for the finals 2008 is dreaming, we need a cleanout from the top to bottom at the end of the year

 

[adzarani]

Mate , I would like to see MM go for the reason that I am sick to death of this around the boundary stuff we play. It drives me nuts, Bring on a coach that will play dow the corridor.

But if you think that the group of players we have at the moment will win us a premiership any time soon, you are living in lala land. We have a very ordinary midfield and dreadful disposal. If this is MMs fault because he chose the players, then by all means go for his jugular.

You seem to think like the club does that you can recruit any old hack and turn him into silk, through development. You can't. Development is the icing, not the cake. A player who is a poor kick at 18-20 yerars of age will always be a poor kick eg Ben Reid and Jaxson Barham.

The comp is much more open than you think.

If Geelong or Hawthorn doesn't win the flag who should?

You are massively overrating the other teams because you are comparing their best footy to our worst.

Compare our best footy this year with friday nights Geel V Haw match. I don't see how anyone could watch that match, and still think we have no right to even challenge for the flag.

Im not suggesting the recruiting has been great either, but the problem is MM doesn't know what to do with kids unless they are ready made players anyway.

For example at least one out of Stanley, Cook, Toovey, Cox and Iles is probably a player. But MM doesn't know which one. So between the 5 of them they get the opportunities of 1 player, they get the call up and are expected to immediately assert themselves on the game as a ready made player would or it's back to the two's.

Someone like a LM will have the foresight to pick one and play him for 12 games to a season regardless of form and bingo he's got a new player. Where as MM will often take 3 years to get 12 - 25 games into a player before usually delisting them, or in rare cases making them a regular part of the 22.

Because MM knows he can't pick kids, he becomes attached to the ones he does pick, in a bid to prove himself right. This is why we get the situation of MM appearing to play favourites as you put it.

The point is that the MM trial and error method of blooding young players has cost us AS WELL as poor recriuting.

I don't think we have the right guy to build a list of kids from scratch, his record speaks for itself, he has had far greater success with ready made players.

 

[Pie eyed]

The comp is much more open than you think.

If Geelong or Hawthorn doesn't win the flag who should?

You are massively overrating the other teams because you are comparing their best footy to our worst.

Compare our best footy this year with friday nights Geel V Haw match. I don't see how anyone could watch that match, and still think we have no right to even challenge for the flag.

Im not suggesting the recruiting has been great either, but the problem is MM doesn't know what to do with kids unless they are ready made players anyway.

For example at least one out of Stanley, Cook, Toovey, Cox and Iles is probably a player. But MM doesn't know which one. So between the 5 of them they get the opportunities of 1 player, they get the call up and are expected to immediately assert themselves on the game as a ready made player would or it's back to the two's.

Someone like a LM will have the foresight to pick one and play him for 12 games to a season regardless of form and bingo he's got a new player. Where as MM will often take 3 years to get 12 - 25 games into a player before usually delisting them, or in rare cases making them a regular part of the 22.

Because MM knows he can't pick kids, he becomes attached to the ones he does pick, in a bid to prove himself right. This is why we get the situation of MM appearing to play favourites as you put it.

The point is that the MM trial and error method of blooding young players has cost us AS WELL as poor recriuting.

I don't think we have the right guy to build a list of kids from scratch, his record speaks for itself, he has had far greater success with ready made players.

Simply look at this weeks results for the answer to any question of how close the teams really are to each other.
Based on results only Melbourne are a little off the pace and only Geelong are a little ahead of the pace.
It's a funny game footy...who would have picked the results this week apart from Geelong and North (even then 50-50 both.)

 

[jadyn39]

I personally can't stand MM's stlye of play of 'attack around the boundary line' but his record is hard to argue against. It might only be 50%, but he ,like all coaches, is dependent on the 'cattle' at his disposal. If you can convince me that he has been responsible for the recruiting disasters over the last 15 years, I will agree with you.

Your vitriol really needs to be directed at Gerard Sholly, Noel Judkins and to a lesser extent Hine. These are the people responsible for the side we have today. And that side is no premiership side. A long, long way from it in actual fact. One of the worst midfields in the AFL, one of the worst disposal teams in the AFL. No ruckman worth his salt, and lacking in a key backman and a key forward as well. If you think this current group of players will win us a flag anytime soon, you are seriously deluded.

MM can do nothing about this. This is the fault of the above mentioned gentlemen. What MM can do is to get them to play as a team, which he has done very effectively. Pressure the opposition when they have the ball, which he also has done very effectively. And use tactical strategies to get the most out of the team at his disposal. Once again he has done this.

The coach is an easy target as he is visible to supporters, the recruiting staff however are not. As I have mentioned many times before, a cardinal sin of our recruiting is the consistent recruiting of players who cannot kick well, hence we are, season after season, one of the better performers in the notorius 'clanger' count. Can anyone name me a great player who was a poor kick? Richo perhaps, but he is the only one I can think of in the last 40 years. We have a club full of poor kicks!!!!!

In 2002 and 2003 , it was great to play in the GF, but the down side was that we had a very ordinary team that was not going to win it and subsequently missed out on high draft picks that may have helped our cause in the ensuing years.

So my friend, although I don't like the around the boundary stuff,his favouritism with players like Maxwell and the fact that he has been outcoached a few times this year(but don't all losing teams look that way?), I still think he has done well with some very ordinary teams.

I think you fail to see the real culprits in our continual flirtation with mediocrity, the recruiting staff

Gee, you're a bit hard on Gerard Sholly aren't you? Gerard left 10 years ago. He's only responsible for drafting Burnsy & Presti.

Our list situation lie's with Judkins & Hines.

Eddie spent hours & hours at Scott Claytons house 3 or 4 years ago trying to get him over the line.

Claytons contract at the dogs expires this year, maybe its time Ed went back at knocked on his Elwood door.

Bookmark this post, because Clayton WILL NOT be at the dogs next year!!!

Question is will he be at the pies???

 

[kevind]

Gee, you're a bit hard on Gerard Sholly aren't you? Gerard left 10 years ago. He's only responsible for drafting Burnsy & Presti.

Our list situation lie's with Judkins & Hines.

Eddie spent hours & hours at Scott Claytons house 3 or 4 years ago trying to get him over the line.

Claytons contract at the dogs expires this year, maybe its time Ed went back at knocked on his Elwood door.

Bookmark this post, because Clayton WILL NOT be at the dogs next year!!!

Question is will he be at the pies???

Not hard on Sholley at all as his recruiting record was worse than Judkins. A bit out of date in relation to the current side perhaps.

God I hope you are right about Clayton. His record at WB is superb.