Nationalise all health care?

[Rotayjay]

I'll run this idea past you.

We're all aware of the fact that the private health insurance industry is in trouble as the lists of insured people get (on the whole) older and sicker. We know that you often need to wait months or even years to see a specialist or get surgery done in the public system but if you're willing to pay upfront then the wait is mere days or weeks.

Would it work in Australia to cut the Gordian knot? Effectively make it a regulatory condition of practising medicine in Australia that you must bulk bill everything, absorb the entire private health care system into Medicare, make all health care free at the point of use and pay for that via (God forbid) higher taxes?

I assume this would never work (I've never worked in the health or insurance sectors myself). I also assume you would never get the Australian people to vote for this. You talk about raising taxes to do something worthwhile and people start frothing at the mouth and breaking down in tears.

 

[cartwright]

raise Medicare, cover everything and get rid of this unworkable system

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

raise Medicare, cover everything and get rid of this unworkable system

Yep, more than happy to pay more Medicare levy and shut private down.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Yep, more than happy to pay more Medicare levy and shut private down.

We need some element of private health

People will always want to pay a premium to get immediate care and noone wants govt funding things like cosmetic surgery

 

[QuietB]

I'll run this idea past you.

We're all aware of the fact that the private health insurance industry is in trouble as the lists of insured people get (on the whole) older and sicker. We know that you often need to wait months or even years to see a specialist or get surgery done in the public system but if you're willing to pay upfront then the wait is mere days or weeks.

Would it work in Australia to cut the Gordian knot? Effectively make it a regulatory condition of practising medicine in Australia that you must bulk bill everything, absorb the entire private health care system into Medicare, make all health care free at the point of use and pay for that via (God forbid) higher taxes?

I assume this would never work (I've never worked in the health or insurance sectors myself). I also assume you would never get the Australian people to vote for this. You talk about raising taxes to do something worthwhile and people start frothing at the mouth and breaking down in tears.

There are certain things in a society that cannot be privatised and there are a lot of things that should not be privatised.

I am firmly in the camp that health should be 100% public and should not be privatised. I cannot image a system where a big clip is taken out for shareholders each year and massive layers of administration is added at all levels is good for health outcomes.

Similarly the privatisation of the disability scheme seems a massive waste of money by layers and layers of administration and profit clipping along the way.

 

[Power Raid]

I'll run this idea past you.

We're all aware of the fact that the private health insurance industry is in trouble as the lists of insured people get (on the whole) older and sicker. We know that you often need to wait months or even years to see a specialist or get surgery done in the public system but if you're willing to pay upfront then the wait is mere days or weeks.

Would it work in Australia to cut the Gordian knot? Effectively make it a regulatory condition of practising medicine in Australia that you must bulk bill everything, absorb the entire private health care system into Medicare, make all health care free at the point of use and pay for that via (God forbid) higher taxes?

I assume this would never work (I've never worked in the health or insurance sectors myself). I also assume you would never get the Australian people to vote for this. You talk about raising taxes to do something worthwhile and people start frothing at the mouth and breaking down in tears.

How about we just train doctors and reduce the caps on supply of labour. To avoid doctors leaving for higher paid jobs overseas, just have a Return of Service obligation and a HECS tax which delivers a three times uplift on investment in the case a person does not complete their Return of Service.


A government system fails. A pure capitalist system would fail.

Thus a blend between private hospitals and public makes sense, as does a PBS. What is failing is labour and complex insurance.

On Labour.......How can any worker earn $400k-$500k on three days a week? Why does it take so long to complete courses? Where a work whilst one trains program would make far more sense. Why are doctors forced to do crazy hours and back to back shifts? This results in burn out and unsuitable for families.

The above highlights the management of health systems needs a massive overhaul.


On insurance.....one needs a medical degree to understand what you are covered for and not.

On specialists......why aren't specialists covered by medicare?

On dental.....why isn't dentistry covered by medicare?

 

[QuietB]

How about we just train doctors and reduce the caps on supply of labour. To avoid doctors leaving for higher paid jobs overseas, just have a Return of Service obligation and a HECS tax which delivers a three times uplift on investment in the case a person does not complete their Return of Service.


A government system fails. A pure capitalist system would fail.

Thus a blend between private hospitals and public makes sense, as does a PBS. What is failing is labour and complex insurance.

On Labour.......How can any worker earn $400k-$500k on three days a week? Why does it take so long to complete courses? Where a work whilst one trains program would make far more sense. Why are doctors forced to do crazy hours and back to back shifts? This results in burn out and unsuitable for families.

The above highlights the management of health systems needs a massive overhaul.


On insurance.....one needs a medical degree to understand what you are covered for and not.

On specialists......why aren't specialists covered by medicare?

On dental.....why isn't dentistry covered by medicare?

I know doctors who would not get out of bed for $400-500K for three days a week.

But then I know bankers and CEO's who would not get out of bed for $400-500k for one day a week.

 

[Power Raid]

I know doctors who would not get out of bed for $400-500K for three days a week.

But then I know bankers and CEO's who would not get out of bed for $400-500k for one day a week.

Agree

it should be noted bankers are not paid by a public health system

 

[QuietB]

Agree

it should be noted bankers are not paid by a public health system

Bankers are cashing in on their own private tax system (interchange fees)

 

[Schneebly11]

I also assume you would never get the Australian people to vote for this. You talk about raising taxes to do something worthwhile and people start frothing at the mouth and breaking down in tears.

That’s the Murdochification/Americanisation of Australian society. They’ve got the public blowing a gasket when “higher taxes” are mentioned. But the same public has no issue with private healthcare premiums, private school fees, childcare costs, privatised everything “because it’s not the government”.

Every study shows the average increase in taxes in paying for these socialised welfare systems is less than the private costs if these welfare systems are privatised. Of course that means those corporations lose money if that happens so they pay the media to cry “BIG GOVERNMENT SOCIALISM MARXISTS!!!!!” whenever their business model comes under attack.

The countries with the highest living standards are all high taxing Scandanavian countries. They’d be heaven on earth if they were a bit warmer.

 

[Power Raid]

That’s the Murdochification/Americanisation of Australian society. They’ve got the public blowing a gasket when “higher taxes” are mentioned. But the same public has no issue with private healthcare premiums, private school fees, childcare costs, privatised everything “because it’s not the government”.

Every study shows the average increase in taxes in paying for these socialised welfare systems is less than the private costs if these welfare systems are privatised. Of course that means those corporations lose money if that happens so they pay the media to cry “BIG GOVERNMENT SOCIALISM MARXISTS!!!!!” whenever their business model comes under attack.

The countries with the highest living standards are all high taxing Scandanavian countries. They’d be heaven on earth if they were a bit warmer.

The issue is a little more complex than that.

If a person wishes to receive health care the public health care does not cover, or does not believe is a suitable allocation of resources, should they be denied the right to purchase that life saving or life changing service?

Afterall we allow people to smoke, drink alcohol, eat s**t food and not exercise and still receive public health cover. Yet we would consider denying people the right to healthcare, who may do all the right things in life in regards to health. It is kind of perverse.

Thus I suggest the issue is not public/ private health or public/ private hospitals, rather we are only seeing symptoms here. The issue is the cost of labour, the cost of equipment, the cost of supplies (including drugs) are all inflated because of no accountability AND artificial barriers to entry.

Why does it take 8 to 10 years and $2B-3B to license a drug?
Why do we have limits on the number of doctors and specialists we train?
Why are our management systems so poor?

 

[Kwality]

There are certain things in a society that cannot be privatised and there are a lot of things that should not be privatised.

I am firmly in the camp that health should be 100% public and should not be privatised. I cannot image a system where a big clip is taken out for shareholders each year and massive layers of administration is added at all levels is good for health outcomes.

Similarly the privatisation of the disability scheme seems a massive waste of money by layers and layers of administration and profit clipping along the way.

Very admirable . A GP earns the same money as a specialist. Specialists all paid the same regardless of whether they are any good, are arse holes who are hard to work for.
Doctors bury their mistakes.

Great theory.

 

[Rotayjay]

Medicare paying for things like cosmetic surgery would be problematic yes. To what extent is there private health care in the Nordic countries?

 

[Power Raid]

Medicare paying for things like cosmetic surgery would be problematic yes. To what extent is there private health care in the Nordic countries?

what about cosmetic surgery after a burn, dog attack or resulting in mental health?

 

[Power Raid]

Medicare paying for things like cosmetic surgery would be problematic yes. To what extent is there private health care in the Nordic countries?

In regards to Nordic Nations, please find the graph identifying Australia funds the same level of public health to GDP as nordic nations.



Again this highlights to me, our issue is a quota system and management systems

 

[NSWCROW]

I assume this would never work (I've never worked in the health or insurance sectors myself). I also assume you would never get the Australian people to vote for this. You talk about raising taxes to do something worthwhile and boomers and lib-voting tradies start frothing at the mouth and breaking down in tears.

EFA

 

[Power Raid]

I'll run this idea past you.

We're all aware of the fact that the private health insurance industry is in trouble as the lists of insured people get (on the whole) older and sicker. We know that you often need to wait months or even years to see a specialist or get surgery done in the public system but if you're willing to pay upfront then the wait is mere days or weeks.

Would it work in Australia to cut the Gordian knot? Effectively make it a regulatory condition of practising medicine in Australia that you must bulk bill everything, absorb the entire private health care system into Medicare, make all health care free at the point of use and pay for that via (God forbid) higher taxes?

I assume this would never work (I've never worked in the health or insurance sectors myself). I also assume you would never get the Australian people to vote for this. You talk about raising taxes to do something worthwhile and people start frothing at the mouth and breaking down in tears.

Double GST and let's fund health and start living within our means

 

[Rotayjay]

EFA

And the annoying thing is that there are enough tax haters in enough seats to get the Coalition in almost every election. Labor just can't convince Australia (plus Rupert Murdoch tries his hardest).

 

[Rotayjay]

what about cosmetic surgery after a burn, dog attack or resulting in mental health?

I know of people who have had cosmetic surgery covered by Medicare for mental health reasons yes. Where does the government health funder draw the line?

 

[kranky al]

I know of people who have had cosmetic surgery covered by Medicare for mental health reasons yes. Where does the government health funder draw the line?

I know a chick who got a boob job under medicare - she was so fuxxxed in the head over being flat chested shed never been seen topless by her boyfriends at 27 years old.

 

[Power Raid]

I know of people who have had cosmetic surgery covered by Medicare for mental health reasons yes. Where does the government health funder draw the line?

There is always a line be it cosmetic, cancer, disease, access to drugs

That’s the argument for private health

But there is a clear case the current system doesn’t work as it should

 

[Pessimistic]

There’s a lot wrong with our hybrid system. Howard not requiring private health reform when he gave a huge subsidy is the root. Hard to change now with lobbyists etc. it’s not really changing the mix just managing it better.

But countries with mostly public or mostly private? They are going much worse

 

[kranky al]

There is always a line be it cosmetic, cancer, disease, access to drugs

That’s the argument for private health

But there is a clear case the current system doesn’t work as it should

The liberal / tory roadmap to killing public services

Defund them so it appears they are unworkable then scrap them

 

[Rotayjay]

I simply don't think there should be a two-tier system. I think the community as a whole should pay for health care, not the sick when they are already sick, vulnerable and possibly jobless due to sickness. I don't have a particularly high income but I'm glad that some of my taxes are going towards an (imperfect) health care system that will look after me if something really bad happened.

 

[hamohawk1]

Likely heading that way in the next few years anyway. Number of people in private health care taking it up is falling and older people needing it ($$$$) rising. System is literally imploding.