Neil Craig

[Stiffy_18]

Hang on - one page ago you were bemoaning Craig's lack of moves on match day and now your agreeing with Stiffy's contention that the Franklin debacle was an error in the planning/preparation phase.

So he can't coach on match day or during the week?

It's a minor miracle that we haven't picked up three consecutive spoons.

On this occasion he stuffed up in the lead up to the game AND during the game.

Generally, I rate Craig as a VERY good coach whose strength lies in the week leading up to the game. He has weaknesses in match day coaching no doubt. Any spindoctoring otherwise is burrying our heads in the sand and ignoring short comings. Just because people question Craig's match day ability (mainly as being slow to react to what is happening on the field) doesn't mean that we think he is a bad coach. To the contrary many of us see some REALLY strong points that Craig brings to the table and as a result we WANT him to be our coach!

Just as we expect players to work on their weaknesses and improve, I don't think its too much to ask for our coaching staff to do the same. Craig needs to develop as a coach. Port choked in 02 and 03 because Williams had the same approach as Craig. Williams changed his approach in 04 and it won them the flag.

No coach enters the coaching arena as a fully developed professional. Coaches develop over time by learning from their mistakes. Its easy to point the finger at the players and say that they didn't execute properly and say when the margin is 2 goals or less its luck. In life you make your own luck. Craig's approach is fine if you have a gun team thats better than anyone else and by a LONG margin. When its more of a level playing field, he is found wanting. No one wants him to go nuts and change things as soon as something happens but he leaves it for far too long. He is slow to reach to whats happening on the field and often, its too late when he does make a move.

I want Craig to coach this team for many years to come but just as I expect players to improve, I expect the coach to do the same. Craig has the foundations to become a great coach but he won't get there unless he becomes a bit more flexible with his approach!

 

[Stiffy_18]

Why are we living in the past, lets look to the future. Forget whether Massie, Bock, Stevens or whoever was the right move on Franklin.

Lets look forward to this year and what we will accomplish as a club.

If you don't learn from your past, your past will become the future. Thats the whole point. If you keep making the same mistake in your life over and over again, you never move forward. You remain in the same place.

 

[Drummond]

I know NC shouldnt pander to the great unwashed, including journos, can you imagine the outcry if Stevens was on Franklin and Stevens was towelled up?

'why didnt you try Massie''

Its a difficult job

And It's also a difficult job reading posts like these...

If Franklin toweled up Stevens then that’s fair enough, but the thing is when something is clearly not working, as Massie on Franklin was not, a change should be made. I can’t believe you can actually put forward that argument. No one knows how Stevens would’ve gone on Franklin, but I think it’s safe to say it’s a more logical match-up and it should’ve been tried, preferably at the start of the game or when Franklin was looking like a match winner. Don’t give me the ‘Craig was doomed either way’ angle.

 

[- PC -]

And It's also a difficult job reading posts like these...

If Franklin toweled up Stevens then that’s fair enough, but the thing is when something is clearly not working, as Massie on Franklin was not, a change should be made. I can’t believe you can actually put forward that argument. No one knows how Stevens would’ve gone on Franklin, but I think it’s safe to say it’s a more logical match-up and it should’ve been tried, preferably at the start of the game or when Franklin was looking like a match winner. Don’t give me the ‘Craig was doomed either way’ angle.

Actually it was aimed at the negative nellies who will always find something wrong and nothing positive

 

[Crow Envy]

The other player he could have tried was Nick Gill. Tall, quick, athletic and has played defence before.

Seriously I cant still believe people are justifying Craigs decision to a) play Massie on Franklin and b) not move him. Just have a look at the result, Franklins impact, size and pace. It will go down in the record books as one of the most stubborn and dumbest coaching moves in a final ever.

 

[swanfan]

If you don't learn from your past, your past will become the future. Thats the whole point. If you keep making the same mistake in your life over and over again, you never move forward. You remain in the same place.

No argument here Stiffy. Lets hope Craigy has learnt from his mistake and we can move forward to a succesful 2008.

 

[Stiffy_18]

The other player he could have tried was Nick Gill. Tall, quick, athletic and has played defence before.

Seriously I cant still believe people are justifying Craigs decision to a) play Massie on Franklin and b) not move him. Just have a look at the result, Franklins impact, size and pace. It will go down in the record books as one of the most stubborn and dumbest coaching moves in a final ever.

While Gill would have been an option, I am not sure it would have been a wise move to rob your forward line at that point. The game still needed to be won and Gill, despite his shithouse goal kicking was still playing the patterns well and giving us what we needed up there. I am not sure we could have covered what Gilly brought to the forward line by moving him to defence.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

The other player he could have tried was Nick Gill. Tall, quick, athletic and has played defence before.

Seriously I cant still believe people are justifying Craigs decision to a) play Massie on Franklin and b) not move him. Just have a look at the result, Franklins impact, size and pace. It will go down in the record books as one of the most stubborn and dumbest coaching moves in a final ever.

Agreed.

Craig had to try someone different than Massie on Franklin, as we had nothing to lose, given it couldn't be a worse matchup - whether it was Stevens, Gill, Burton or Rutten. No point dying wandering in these cirumstances.

 

[Markthirtytwo]

Can we please build a bridge on the Massie on Buddy stuff up now please?

Time we moved on.

I reckon NC has.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

C'mon Nikki. You haven't mentioned the one player that has been suggested many times by both myself and others on this board.

Stevens.

The logical match-up for Franklin in terms of height, pace and mobility.

He should have started on Franklin. We'll never know now, but I believe that we would have won that game with an appropriate match-up for Franklin (whose confidence just grew and grew when he realized that he was still playing on a midget no matter what he did.)

Massie was the mis-match of the century and the results proved it.

Mis-match of the century Massie belted Franklin in the minor rounds at footy park. I think Franklin kicked a first quarter goal on Massie aswell, but the coach showed a bit of faith.

 

[swanfan]

Can we please build a bridge on the Massie on Buddy stuff up now please?

Time we moved on.

I reckon NC has.

I was trying to say that.

 

[macca23]

Mis-match of the century Massie belted Franklin in the minor rounds at footy park. I think Franklin kicked a first quarter goal on Massie aswell, but the coach showed a bit of faith.

Totally different conditions.

Night game, slippery ball, Hawthorn getting thrashed.

It's like calling an apple an orange.

 

[macca23]

Hang on - one page ago you were bemoaning Craig's lack of moves on match day and now your agreeing with Stiffy's contention that the Franklin debacle was an error in the planning/preparation phase.

So he can't coach on match day or during the week?

It's a minor miracle that we haven't picked up three consecutive spoons.

As Stiffy said - both. Shouldn't have happened in the first place but once it did and wasn't working, changes had to be made.

And forget your sarcasm at the end of your post.

In principle and in 90% plus of the remaining aspects of coaching, Craig is an outstanding coach.

But unlike you and a few others I'm not blinded to his areas of weakness and specific examples of them.

Like any other person in any other walk of life, he has areas he needs to improve on - match day coaching is one of them.

However, again like in any other walk of life, if you don't acknowledge your weaknesses, you will never improve on them.

 

[macca23]

Can we please build a bridge on the Massie on Buddy stuff up now please?

Time we moved on.

I reckon NC has.

My concern is that I don't believe that he has. In an interview some time after the game he said that even in hindsight he would do the same again.

That's Gary Ayres stuff IMO.

 

[birdmanptr]

I agree with your comments re Geelong adopting the Crow-bot style of play, Nikki.

They did, and they did it well.

Did they have better players or did they make the appropriate tactical moves when they had to be made?

Or both?

Or very few numbers in the medical room

 

[Freddy Bassett]

My concern is that I don't believe that he has. In an interview some time after the game he said that even in hindsight he would do the same again.

That's Gary Ayres stuff IMO.

I agree with you on that though Macca. Surely his head was mashed when he said that comment.

 

[birdmanptr]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you watched those 3 finals and couldn't pick the coaching mistakes - or lack of moves - I'm certainly not going to waste my time or yours on the subject.

Or not going to try and argue?

Forget about 07 as we should have not made the finals and IF we had beaten Hawthorn we would have not gone to far

What moves could have he made in 05 and 06 ? The only mistake for mine in 06 was Roo did not play the Prelim as we were told he would play the GF if we got through so if he was going to play the GF he was able to play 3 Quarters in the Prelim on and off the bench

 

[birdmanptr]

The amazing thing i find here is Craig is copping it but it seems we have all forgoten Clanger Thomspon who kicked it out of bounds that resulted in the kick in that got Franklin the mark. IF he had have kicked it in play the result could have been a ball up on the wing,then Franklin would have kicked 5 in a losing Final.

The other thing i find amuzing is comparsions to the Blight Era if Craigy had the players at his disposal like Blighty did we might have just won the last 3.

 

[swanfan]

The other thing i find amuzing is comparsions to the Blight Era if Craigy had the players at his disposal like Blighty did we might have just won the last 3.

I agree. I don't think players in the past like Ellen, Rintoul, Sampson, Koster, Bond, Connell, Keating, Marsh, Thiessen, Brett James etc would struggle to get a kick in today's game.

There is really no point in comparing eras as the game has changed so much in 10 years and it is quicker now than it was then.

 

[Alex99]

The amazing thing i find here is Craig is copping it but it seems we have all forgoten Clanger Thomspon who kicked it out of bounds that resulted in the kick in that got Franklin the mark. IF he had have kicked it in play the result could have been a ball up on the wing,then Franklin would have kicked 5 in a losing Final.

You cannot pin point the loss on one single action of play. Don’t forget we kicked 12 behinds for the afternoon so if you want to blame Scott Thompson by kicking it out of bounds. If you’re going to lay the blame on Scott Thompson take a long hard look at the kicking for goal skill errors as well.

Lance Franklin’s last minute goal won the game for Hawthorn but Scott Thompson kicking it out of bounds didn’t lose us the game.

 

[Mean Muggin]

Yes it did........

And didn't Franklin kick 7 that afternoon? So if Clanger Thompson had of not kicked out on the full, Franklin would have ended up with 6 in a losing final.

Not trolling, just clarifying.....

 

[amer]

Yes it did........

And didn't Franklin kick 7 that afternoon? So if Clanger Thompson had of not kicked out on the full, Franklin would have ended up with 6 in a losing final.

Not trolling, just clarifying.....

Of course not.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Yes it did........

And didn't Franklin kick 7 that afternoon? So if Clanger Thompson had of not kicked out on the full, Franklin would have ended up with 6 in a losing final.

Not trolling, just clarifying.....

And if Thomspon single handedly didn't keep us in the game after half time, then the margin would have been much greater than it was. Thats a fact. He was one of only 2-3 players who can hold their heads high after half time. He was CLEARLY our best player in the 2nd half and to pin the loss on him is deplorable.

No Thompson and the margin if at least 30 plus points. No ifs or buts.

 

[Tas]

The problem with Franklin was that we let him run wild by giving him an easy match up from the start. Once he got hot you could have put the whole team on him and he still would have had his way. My major beef here is that Craig made a mistake in the lead up to the game. The best match up from the start would have been Stevens. And then you give him some help with Torney and Massie leaving their man when needed.

I think you are a bit harsh on NC on this call. I think it is the general view of the football community that the best way to play Franklin is to put a smaller player on him that can go with him for speed and has the agility at ground level, suprisingly enough this is the area he does the vast majority of his damage because he is creating goals out of nothing at ground level and makes bigger key position players look like they are moving in slow motion.

NC just felt that he was the best man for the job and that the team was not executing the plan correctly and if they were to get things right then the plan would come together.

On that reasoning you can understand him sticking with Massie if he felt it was not Massie's fault but the support he was getting both in defense and in the middle to put more pressure on the supply inside 50.

You can say he is a dingbat for not making a change but his plan still had the Crows in a winning position, it was only an untimely error in judgement that ultimately cost the match.

So what if he moved Rutten onto Franklin or someone else and he just contined to run amok and kick 10 goals instead of 7, would that have made him a better coach?

You guys almost won, should have won, were missing a lot of players and were carrying a lot of suspect players who hadn't really recovered from injuries. I think you are a bit harsh going the ten commandments at NC, especially when the following week we played the Hawks and put Gibson on Franklin who is basically the same size player with similar strengths and weaknesses.

The plan was fine, the execution by the players was far from flawless and NC shouldn't be the one hung up to dry for that. He identified the best strategy, the best matchup, you can say not making any changes cost the game but you don't know that, perhaps making a chance wouldn't have blown the game wide open and the Hawks could have won comfortably.

I think when you are in a winning position then you can't ask much more from the coach, the rest is up to the players and they made a lot of errors on the night, focusing on Thommo's is not fair but it highlighted the real problem for the night.

Perhaps his biggest flaw is having too much faith in the players, it is a kind of personality quirk that will go thankless no matter how much good it brings to the club yet people only seem to remember the negatives.

 

[Crow-mo]

Like the 12 sane rational coaches that finished below him in 05? Or the 12 sane rational coaches who finished below him in 06?

Be thankful for what you've got.

your refusal to acknowledge the requirements of 'situational management' is undermining your entire argument.