New interchange rules - super substitute

[S for September]

Re: The sub - how will it be used?

Except that he's already needed in our best side. I'd go for someone like Hogan. Can play in the midfield, and has the speed and stamina to run hard for a half. Has to improve his disposal, but that has to occur anyway if he is to get a game.

Taylor Hunt to take over monica's position, with monica coming on as a sub at half time wherever needed.

 

[Jimmy Yamazaki]

If we didn't need him rotating the midfield, I would go Chappy! would love him to come in fresh and go forward or help boost the midfield.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

It can only be a midfielder. You want a player with great stamina to play flat out for either a quarter or a half. It can't be anyone else.

For those who suggested someone like Mooney, recipe for disaster. The side is already too big and too slow.

It doesn't have to be a midfielder per se, but it needs to be someone who is quick (since they'll only play a half or quarter mostly) and can add run to the mids. For example if Motlop comes on as your sub to play forward, it means Chapman or Varcs or Duncan or whoever can go into the mids for the rest of the game, which adds to the midfield, as well as the pace Motlop will provide.

I agree with you, it is unlikely to be a tall and definitely will not be a ruckman.

I just sent a text to SEN and Balmey pretty much squashed my Corey idea.

Didn't agree that Corey needs the pace out of the game. Said he had sore knees last year , not this year.
And that Corey is too good to be a sub.

Said it was an interesting thought though and that in a few years all clubs will look back and realise they never got the sub right.

He also thinks it may have killed off ruckmen.

Interesting.

Good to hear about Corey, hopefully last year was just him trying to come back too quickly, and he is indeed right now.

I don't think Corey would have been the best sub, better to provide some more pace and run. Wojo is a good suggestion (ideal player) but right now he's in the best side, and deserves to be. I reckon possible subs will include Menzel, Duncan, Motlop (my tip for round 1, based on nothing other than a gut feel), Byrnes, THunt, Hogan, Christensen and so on, with sub duties to be rotated each week.

I agree with him on ruckmen, it hasn't killed off ruckmen altogether because no guy can ruck a game alone, but it has killed off the ruckman who can't do anything else other than tap ruck and can't play another position (probably forward). Hence why I said someone like West, or to a lesser extent Simpson, are far far more likely than Blake to play games this year, even if Blake is a better ruckman. I think if the rule stays for a few years it will create a two tiered thing with rucks where traditional rucks will have much less value, and mobile rucks (e.g kruezer, ryder) or guys who can play elsewhere and also ruck (clark etc) will increase in value significantly.

 

[Knife Wrench]

Re: The sub - how will it be used?

I don't quite understand why you would want to put a player with great stamina on for less than half the game. Players with great stamina can play the whole game and still have more energy than their opponent. I think it should be someone that is quite the opposite. Someone that is quick but doesn't really have the stamina/endurance to play out a whole game at that speed.

I'm not totally sure where Christensen is in regards to senior readiness but hes meant to have a fairly poor tank but a lot of talent, so if we wanted him to get some exposure without killing him from exhaustion, this could be a way I suppose.

 

[maxy87]

I would probably use a player that only contributes on the scoreboard for 10 minutes a game and therefore doesn't need to play a full game. Maybe Ling playing a Riccardi pinch hit role up forward (though unlikely being the skipper) or a Motlop/Stokes/Christensen rocket that can be clever and snag snag a goal or two in the last quarter but would probably go missing if playing 100 minutes as this is common for creative smaller forwards. I see it being like the soccer sub system. Never know though, I guess it would depend on conditions/opposition and how the match is unfolding.

 

[vinum coupe]

It doesn't have to be a midfielder per se, but it needs to be someone who is quick (since they'll only play a half or quarter mostly) and can add run to the mids. For example if Motlop comes on as your sub to play forward, it means Chapman or Varcs or Duncan or whoever can go into the mids for the rest of the game, which adds to the midfield, as well as the pace Motlop will provide.

I agree with you, it is unlikely to be a tall and definitely will not be a ruckman.



Interesting.

Good to hear about Corey, hopefully last year was just him trying to come back too quickly, and he is indeed right now.

I don't think Corey would have been the best sub, better to provide some more pace and run. Wojo is a good suggestion (ideal player) but right now he's in the best side, and deserves to be. I reckon possible subs will include Menzel, Duncan, Motlop (my tip for round 1, based on nothing other than a gut feel), Byrnes, THunt, Hogan, Christensen and so on, with sub duties to be rotated each week.

I agree with him on ruckmen, it hasn't killed off ruckmen altogether because no guy can ruck a game alone, but it has killed off the ruckman who can't do anything else other than tap ruck and can't play another position (probably forward). Hence why I said someone like West, or to a lesser extent Simpson, are far far more likely than Blake to play games this year, even if Blake is a better ruckman. I think if the rule stays for a few years it will create a two tiered thing with rucks where traditional rucks will have much less value, and mobile rucks (e.g kruezer, ryder) or guys who can play elsewhere and also ruck (clark etc) will increase in value significantly.

I completely disagree about having a player like Menzel, Duncan, or Motlop as the sub. Sides will do it, but it is wrong. It will limit the coach too much.

1/ Players get less opportunity to develop. (rotating will help of course)
2/ If the game is tight and high pressured you may not sub at all.
3/ If the game is high pressured and an opponent is giving you grief you will look to your sub to see what options you have. A kid isn't a great option to solve a problem.

On your other thoughts.
Balme seemed to be in your camp. ie. need pace.
On ruckman he said there used to be a requirement to have 6 on your list, but we may end up not needing any if this keeps going.
On wojo. Someone sent a text in suggesting wojo and he said yes. That is a strong possibility (or words to that effect)

 

[Vdubs]

what about Milburn, can have a high impact with marking, tackling, etc but may not last a whole match as well as previously.

 

[jim boy]

Plenty of options - young guys who wouldn't have got into the seniors at, top level players coming back from injury who aren't fully match fit, pinch hitting burst players. Looking forward to it but then I would love to have seen a second sub and only a two man bench.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

I completely disagree about having a player like Menzel, Duncan, or Motlop as the sub. Sides will do it, but it is wrong. It will limit the coach too much.

1/ Players get less opportunity to develop. (rotating will help of course)
2/ If the game is tight and high pressured you may not sub at all.
3/ If the game is high pressured and an opponent is giving you grief you will look to your sub to see what options you have. A kid isn't a great option to solve a problem.

On your other thoughts.
Balme seemed to be in your camp. ie. need pace.
On ruckman he said there used to be a requirement to have 6 on your list, but we may end up not needing any if this keeps going.
On wojo. Someone sent a text in suggesting wojo and he said yes. That is a strong possibility (or words to that effect)

I agree with you, particularly in regards to limiting the development of young players, ideally I'd like to see a younger player such as Menzel play a full game, and an older player be eased through their last few years as the sub. However it will happen (Menz, Duncan etc) as the sub, partly because of the need for the sub to be youthful and inject pace and run late in the game as the opposition starts to flag, but also because most sides won't put a player who's considered clearly best 22 as a sub, in order to put said younger player on the field, hence why I feel the sub will mostly be a younger player, even though it is not as good for their development as playing a full game. On the upside, some younger players, such as Bundy and his poor tank, will benefit from the sub rule, and others who the coaches rate, such as young Motlop, will be able to be eased into AFL, so it's not all bad, but certainly there will be issues with limiting player's development, hence why we'll have to rotate it I reckon so one player doesn't get stuck with that all year. The only older players who will see sub duty rather than a younger player are those who are borderline best 22 anyway (Stokes, Byrnes, Ling if he wasn't captain etc).

In regards to Wojo, it's interesting, in an ideal world he's a great sub, because of the pace, to run sides off their feet in the second half when they're getting tired. Particularly if you subbed someone like Ling for Wojo, that would be great impact run. The issue is if Wojo keeps his 2010 form up, where he was in our best 15 or so every week IMO, I don't think you can justify putting him sub for tactical reasons. I think if a player is about your 18th 19th or 20th based on form, then you could justify making them the 22nd for tactical reasons, but if they're any higher than that they must be in the starting side. The other issue, given our slowness, is I'd only want to see Wojo as the sub if we replaced his pace in the starting side, probably with THunt every week and Motlop also, which would require giving a couple of older slower guys the arse. Otherwise by getting a half instead of four quarters out of Wojo we're actually reducing our run.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how it goes, so many options and we don't really know what the club will do. I wish we were only playing sides of 22 in the NAB so we the fans could get some idea of what we're planning for the sub.

Ruckmen, I do agree. I think probably 3 or 4 ruckmen on the list, combined with a couple of KPP's who can pinch hit, will be the maximum clubs will be prepared to carry if the rule persists.

 

[vinum coupe]

Yeah I agree mostly.

I just don't get the need to have someone with pace as a sub.
I am with you that the pacy guys need to be on the ground as much as possible (unless their pace dries up after 60 minutes)

In regards to my Corey idea (which wont happen). I just felt that he is going to 'look' faster if he came on fresh in a second half.

And most importantly you absolutely know that he will fill a role that has been (i can''t think of the bloody word !! ) found/seen as a deficiency at half time.

If we play say 4 new players as most of us want, and for the sake of the argument I will suggest menzel, motlop, Thunt, hogan.

Then they are going to be up and down with regards to consistency.

Wouldn't it be great to have an automatic go to man as the sub.

"right, menzel is having a shocker and swan is killing us. Lets rip him off, send ling forward, put jimmy onto swan, and send corey into the guts to free wheel"

That sort of thing.
I can't see a stokes or byrnes having impact like that.

I think the sub needs to be someone who 'always' makes an impact. Someone who knows what needs to be done. Someone who has the ability to sit on a bench for 60 minutes of footy and read what is happening.

In fact, wouldn't it be good if the sub could sit in the coaches box before he goes on?

 

[vinum coupe]

The other issue is.

Does a sub have to stay warmed up?

He may not be used until the 4th quarter. Does he just keep stretching for 90 minutes?

Or is it a case of. "when we get an injury the player needs to go the bench and stay there for 20 minutes until the sub has sufficiently warmed up"

 

[mark121]

I expect the sub to warm up before the game with all the other players and continue throughout the game so that only a minimal amount of warm up is needed when the time comes.


Does anyone else expect teams to fake that they are about to make a change like they do in motor racing with pit stops?

If they do will this become entertaining for fans or just annoying?

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Yeah I agree mostly.

I just don't get the need to have someone with pace as a sub.
I am with you that the pacy guys need to be on the ground as much as possible (unless their pace dries up after 60 minutes)

In regards to my Corey idea (which wont happen). I just felt that he is going to 'look' faster if he came on fresh in a second half.

And most importantly you absolutely know that he will fill a role that has been (i can''t think of the bloody word !! ) found/seen as a deficiency at half time.

If we play say 4 new players as most of us want, and for the sake of the argument I will suggest menzel, motlop, Thunt, hogan.

Then they are going to be up and down with regards to consistency.

Wouldn't it be great to have an automatic go to man as the sub.

"right, menzel is having a shocker and swan is killing us. Lets rip him off, send ling forward, put jimmy onto swan, and send corey into the guts to free wheel"

That sort of thing.
I can't see a stokes or byrnes having impact like that.

I think the sub needs to be someone who 'always' makes an impact. Someone who knows what needs to be done. Someone who has the ability to sit on a bench for 60 minutes of footy and read what is happening.

In fact, wouldn't it be good if the sub could sit in the coaches box before he goes on?

I totally agree with you re Corey, and I think it would be great to have a 'plan b' sub who is a quality player that can come on to replace someone who's having a really bad day.

But like I said, I feel that most clubs, including us, will pick the sub as someone being ranked between 18-26 so unless Corey's form/fitness falls to that level, it won't be him for that reason. But in principle I think your idea is great even though it won't happen. Probably more likely the sub role is tailored for a kid like Motlop who would inject heaps of pace and creativity around goals, but doesn't have the match fitness for full games at AFL intensity. But yeah, it does leave you exposed if someone's having a bad day, because you've only got a kid coming on to replace them. Would be nice if we could get both.

On the 'pacey' player, I don't think it necessarily has to be a super quick player, although it must be a runner simply because you have more runners and therefore you're more likely to get an injury to a runner than a tall. And obviously the sub is better to be a speed guy than an endurance guy given he'll only play 30 minutes or so most weeks. However I think there'll be a bit of copycat/neutralising in that if you're playing a team with a super quick player as the sub, most teams will want to have a super quick player as their sub also so the other team can't try and run them off their feet. The other thing, and this is just my theory so it could be completely wrong is that the top sides are better than the rest largely because of their defensive ability, ability to apply zones and forward pressure and pressure on the spread more generally, which is physically taxing, so I think a lot of sides will try and throw a really quick player on late to try and break through/over said zones and pressure as players fatigue. Whether it'll work or not I don't know, but I reckon it's something a lot of sides will try.

Anyway, just a guess, and like I said, I don't know much, it's just stuff I come up with when I have too much spare time.

The other issue is.

Does a sub have to stay warmed up?

He may not be used until the 4th quarter. Does he just keep stretching for 90 minutes?

Or is it a case of. "when we get an injury the player needs to go the bench and stay there for 20 minutes until the sub has sufficiently warmed up"

Sub can come on immediately.

I'm guessing they'll spend most of the game on the bikes, doing run throughs, etc, to keep warm.

 

[vinum coupe]

Balme did make one comment which may give insight.

They are thinking that the sub will need to be used as a defensive option rather than an attacking option.

Hence the scenario I posted.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Balme did make one comment which may give insight.

They are thinking that the sub will need to be used as a defensive option rather than an attacking option.

Hence the scenario I posted.

Good, that means Stokes will be VFL rather than sub

It's hard to know how literally to take that comment, whether the guy coming in will himself be a defensive option, or whether he'll release someone else to be.

Hmm, interesting.

 

[CNeill]

Balme did make one comment which may give insight.

They are thinking that the sub will need to be used as a defensive option rather than an attacking option.

Hence the scenario I posted.

Putting limits like that on it would be a mug's option. Collingwood won the flag with scoreboard pressure. That's how they got the better of us. There has to be an attacking option considered. Defensive option would be a better tactic with a side like St.Kilda. Depends on the opposition as someone else said earlier in this thread.

But there's another X factor. The weather. Not so much of a consideration at Etihad, but it would be at all the other venues including Skilled. I've got a friend who believes this will be a wet season. He compared it to 1977 for those old enough to remember (I'm not!).

 

[nohairandfair]

The substitute's primary role is to provide cover in the case of injury.

I'd say most clubs will be looking at taller utility types that have defensive skills. This gives the club more flexibility and is less likely to affect team balance if a player is injured.

So perhaps we will see players like Drum, Gillies and Smedts fill this role until they can get a regular gig.

 

[vinum coupe]

Scenario

Friday night game. Sub does not get used.
Can he play VFL?

 

[jim boy]

Scenario

Friday night game. Sub does not get used.
Can he play VFL?

He can - plenty of examples where a VFL player has been called into the seniors due to a late injury.

A more intersting question would be if the sub doesn't get used in a GF (which would be pretty tough), would he still be eligible for a medal?

Stats wise is even more of a dilemma, do non-playing subs get a game stat - important for make life membership etc. Will stats record games in ratios? eg if a sub comes in for the 4th quarter and kicks a goal, is he said to be averaging 4 goals a match?

 

[you pick one]

Good, that means Stokes will be VFL rather than sub

It's hard to know how literally to take that comment, whether the guy coming in will himself be a defensive option, or whether he'll release someone else to be.

Hmm, interesting.

Your quick with the red pen P.O, Stokes was our highest scoring player of the last final series and although his direct opponent gets a bit of the ball at times, It may just be he is playing to instructions to get loose over the back and crumb a few goals,which leaves him out of the contest at times.

Iike every other player on the list I'll wait and see what roll Scott assigns them,before I start carving them up between my ears.

New coach and changes to the game plan will be a real shot in the arm for some players and signal the death knell for others which side of the line Matthew falls on we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[vinum coupe]

I don't mind stokes. He offers pace.
And I like his running onto balls that are kicked over the top. It cuts teams open.

 

[The rabbi]

I don't mind stokes. He offers pace.
And I like his running onto balls that are kicked over the top. It cuts teams open.

I think that the forward flank/pockets will be the most contested position in the club this year. There are so many who could slot in there. I would not be game enough to pencil anyone in on those positions at the moment.

 

[you pick one]

I think that the forward flank/pockets will be the most contested position in the club this year. There are so many who could slot in there. I would not be game enough to pencil anyone in on those positions at the moment.

Chapman and Stevie J will take two spots but the other two are up for grabs rabbi.

 

[SJ]

He can - plenty of examples where a VFL player has been called into the seniors due to a late injury.

A more intersting question would be if the sub doesn't get used in a GF (which would be pretty tough), would he still be eligible for a medal?

Stats wise is even more of a dilemma, do non-playing subs get a game stat - important for make life membership etc. Will stats record games in ratios? eg if a sub comes in for the 4th quarter and kicks a goal, is he said to be averaging 4 goals a match?

Prior to the last decade it was not uncommon for interchange players to not grace the field until the last quarter, so I don't really see how there is any difference.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

I don't mind stokes. He offers pace.
And I like his running onto balls that are kicked over the top. It cuts teams open.

But Menzel and Motlop offer pace too, and defensively Stokes is mostly woeful. If he can stay in the side fine, but he'll need to improve that area of his game 100 % to do it, as you can bet your bottom dollar Scott values defence and won't tolerate lack of effort in that area. Stokes gold pass is gone.

I'm happy if he can prove me wrong by staying in, but he'll definitely have to improve to do it.