Obrien or Sicily

[Baz_hawk]

O'Brien has seriously impressed me this year, especially the defensive side of his game. Hits tackling is good, work rate is impressive and his ability to provide forward pressure when he's played forward has been first rate. Currently all he needs is a little more size and confidence at the level and he'll be a strong goal kicker for us.
Sicily has equally impressed me but he's the opposite of O'Brien with his defensive game needing some improvement.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

One thing i really like about TOB is that he has a bloody long reach. Makes me think he might settle in defence. Bloody hard to get the ball back over behind him. Might end up a goal keeper type. Shown some great pace too in glimpses.

And yes he looks to have started coming out of his shell.

 

[Manila_Hawk]

One thing i really like about TOB is that he has a bloody long reach. Makes me think he might settle in defence. Bloody hard to get the ball back over behind him. Might end up a goal keeper type. Shown some great pace too in glimpses.

Maybe we can call him NGF ..... New Generation Fletcher.

 

[Move P]

Both still too slight for AFL.

Waiting for Shoe to come back as I think Silicy could do with a spell.

Both showed promise though.

 

[Main Man]

Both still too slight for AFL.

Waiting for Shoe to come back as I think Silicy could do with a spell.

Both showed promise though.

I'm staggered that people are waiting for Schoenmakers to come back in.

Yes he played 2-3 good games late last year, Grand Final was good but was way off the pace in the NAB Cup and first 3 games this season.

Needs to play at Box Hill and earn a spot.

I don't know why people are thinking Sicily needs a spell?

Leading the club in contested marks by 5, is top 20 in the competition for this stat.

17 disposals and 10 marks last week with 1.3.

That's more disposals and marks than both Bruest and Gunton with the same amount of scoring shots.

If the club thinks he needs a rest then I'll trust their judgment but based on performance has to be playing every week.

 

[Gralin]

I'm staggered that people are waiting for Schoenmakers to come back in.

Yes he played 2-3 good games late last year, Grand Final was good but was way off the pace in the NAB Cup and first 3 games this season.

Needs to play at Box Hill and earn a spot.

I don't know why people are thinking Sicily needs a spell?

Leading the club in contested marks by 5, is top 20 in the competition for this stat.

17 disposals and 10 marks last week with 1.3.

That's more disposals and marks than both Bruest and Gunton with the same amount of scoring shots.

If the club thinks he needs a rest then I'll trust their judgment but based on performance has to be playing every week.

We need Shoe fit now more than ever, he is named at box hill for this weekend hopefully he pulls up well.

He got injured during the cats game and gutted it out, his form wasn't great but I'm hoping he is recovered from the groin and will build some form.

I think we will see him back in the seniors in the next couple of weeks if he is fit enough, just my feeling that we will want him out there, not sure who for.

 

[Main Man]

We need Shoe fit now more than ever, he is named at box hill for this weekend hopefully he pulls up well.

He got injured during the cats game and gutted it out, his form wasn't great but I'm hoping he is recovered from the groin and will build some form.

I think we will see him back in the seniors in the next couple of weeks if he is fit enough, just my feeling that we will want him out there, not sure who for.

Why do we need him now more than ever when TOB/Sicily are offering as much and if not more than Schoey ever has with far more upside.

If he starts kicking bags at Box Hill then he should come in but from what we have seen this year we are no better off with him in the team.

 

[Gralin]

Why do we need him now more than ever when TOB/Sicily are offering as much and if not more than Schoey ever has with far more upside.

If he starts kicking bags at Box Hill then he should come in but from what we have seen this year we are no better off with him in the team.

Because I think his value to the team isn't just how many goals he can kick.
It's what he can do structurally for our other forwards, his defensive and second and third efforts.
His bigger frame has its uses, his extra 90 games of footy including 2 grand finals that he played well in.
The fact he gives Clarko another option with how to line up.
Why wouldn't you want him fit and firing?

 

[Main Man]

Because I think his value to the team isn't just how many goals he can kick.
It's what he can do structurally for our other forwards, his defensive and second and third efforts.
His bigger frame has its uses, his extra 90 games of footy including 2 grand finals that he played well in.
The fact he gives Clarko another option with how to line up.
Why wouldn't you want him fit and firing?

I didn't say I didn't want him to get back and firing but I don't understand why people are waiting for him to come back?

If his form warrants it yen good but for now TOB and Sicily are doing a great job.

I don't believe we would be getting anything more out of Schoe.

Sicily has taken 15 contested marks this year (top 20 in the league) and kicked 3 goals in a quarter to get us over the line against quality opposition.

Has contributed in every game he has played since Round 1 and is only going to get better.

TOB has been thrown around a bit and handled himself well, now that Brand is in he can concentrate on playing forward and we are seeing glimpses as his confidence grows.

Has more upside than Schoe, better leap, better athleticism, good hands and like Schoe is a great set shot kick, he has also shown he is not afraid to tackle and get his hands dirty.

I hope Schoe can get fit and start finding form for now he is behind the other two.

 

[Gralin]

I didn't say I didn't want him to get back and firing but I don't understand why people are waiting for him to come back?

If his form warrants it yen good but for now TOB and Sicily are doing a great job.

I don't believe we would be getting anything more out of Schoe.

Sicily has taken 15 contested marks this year (top 20 in the league) and kicked 3 goals in a quarter to get us over the line against quality opposition.

Has contributed in every game he has played since Round 1 and is only going to get better.

TOB has been thrown around a bit and handled himself well, now that Brand is in he can concentrate on playing forward and we are seeing glimpses as his confidence grows.

Has more upside than Schoe, better leap, better athleticism, good hands and like Schoe is a great set shot kick, he has also shown he is not afraid to tackle and get his hands dirty.

I hope Schoe can get fit and start finding form for now he is behind the other two.

Like I said my view is different to yours on what value I think he adds to the team

If Sicily and TOB are keeping him out and Hawks are winning all to the good but Shoe coming in doesn't automatically put one of those two out.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Like I said my view is different to yours on what value I think he adds to the team

If Sicily and TOB are keeping him out and Hawks are winning all to the good but Shoe coming in doesn't automatically put one of those two out.

I will just say that i agree with everything you have said. We need the big body in the forward line. TOB in my opinion is playing better than Sicily. The boy needs a defensive side. TOB doing all the hard stuff along with the offensive. we need that to avoid getting exploited down back

 

[flinchfree]

I will just say that i agree with everything you have said. We need the big body in the forward line. TOB in my opinion is playing better than Sicily. The boy needs a defensive side. TOB doing all the hard stuff along with the offensive. we need that to avoid getting exploited down back

Weird. I think were doing much better defensively with far more options down there - even without TOB - than up forward.
As a forward, there is no comparison between the two over who looks more likely to take a mark, get out the back for a loose ball, or kick a goal.
Sicily by the length of the Flemington straight.

 

[Main Man]

I repeat again, Sicily has taken more contested marks than anyone in the team this year by 5 and has nearly kicked 2 a game.

How anyone can question his form is beyond me, yes he might need to do more defensively but that will come with time.

What's the point of having a big body that is giving you nothing?

That's was what Schoenmakers offered the first 3 rounds this year.

I really don't understand the logic, if he goes back to Box Hill and kicks a few bags then yep by all means bring him in but to say we need a big body so he should play makes no sense to me.

If we needed height then maybe but TOB provides that and his form is fine, is improving every week.

 

[NICE1]

I repeat again, Sicily has taken more contested marks than anyone in the team this year by 5 and has nearly kicked 2 a game.

How anyone can question his form is beyond me, yes he might need to do more defensively but that will come with time.

What's the point of having a big body that is giving you nothing?

That's was what Schoenmakers offered the first 3 rounds this year.

I really don't understand the logic, if he goes back to Box Hill and kicks a few bags then yep by all means bring him in but to say we need a big body so he should play makes no sense to me.

If we needed height then maybe but TOB provides that and his form is fine, is improving every week.

Mate let's be honest, it hasn't been just the first 3 rounds this year, it's been for most of his time up forward. Sicily & TOB showed more in their first 3 games than schoey has to date.

 

[beta_condition]

Fully fit Shoey is in front of TOB but he's done enough over the last few weeks to make Shoey earn his spot back through the VFL.

 

[Jables]

Mate let's be honest, it hasn't been just the first 3 rounds this year, it's been for most of his time up forward. Sicily & TOB showed more in their first 3 games than schoey has to date.

The hyperbole there is ridiculous, to date? When they play 4 good finals games in a row that may be true.

It's close, but there is just more to work with at the moment with O'Brien, plays multiple positions, a bit more athletic and is good defensively. However I feel like if either were to be dropped for some reason he'd go out if Brand was staying in the team.

 

[Main Man]

The hyperbole there is ridiculous, to date? When they play 4 good finals games in a row that may be true.

It's close, but there is just more to work with at the moment with O'Brien, plays multiple positions, a bit more athletic and is good defensively. However I feel like if either were to be dropped for some reason he'd go out if Brand was staying in the team.

On his from in the last 3 finals last year Schoey would be ahead of the other two but not by a huge margin, he played very solid football but was not exactly dominant.

Averaged 18 disposals, 8 marks and 1.3 goals a game, solid contribution but far from dominant.

Lets keep in mind though that we were playing our best football during that period and Roughy was in the team at that point, he also had about 100 games experience at the level.

The other two have been playing in a team down on form with no Roughead making the task at hand a more difficult one.

My point being that if these two are currently providing a similar level of performance to what Sheonmakers has even at his best, so why is it that people are calling for him to be back in the team when his form this year has been ordinary and he hasn't played for 5 weeks?

I hope he goes back to Box Hill and finds some form putting pressure on these guys but realistically unless he finds career best form he is going to offering little more than the two younger lads with more upside, that's not to say he shouldn't get a game if the other two drop off.

 

[Gralin]

On his from in the last 3 finals last year Schoey would be ahead of the other two but not by a huge margin, he played very solid football but was not exactly dominant.

Averaged 18 disposals, 8 marks and 1.3 goals a game, solid contribution but far from dominant.

Lets keep in mind though that we were playing our best football during that period and Roughy was in the team at that point, he also had about 100 games experience at the level.

The other two have been playing in a team down on form with no Roughead making the task at hand a more difficult one.

My point being that if these two are currently providing a similar level of performance to what Sheonmakers has even at his best, so why is it that people are calling for him to be back in the team when his form this year has been ordinary and he hasn't played for 5 weeks?

I hope he goes back to Box Hill and finds some form putting pressure on these guys but realistically unless he finds career best form he is going to offering little more than the two younger lads with more upside, that's not to say he shouldn't get a game if the other two drop off.

The yardstick is different for all three players.
Shoe and TOB are closest from a structural perspective they provide a contest, do the team things well create scoring opportunities for others and are good defensively with their pressure.

Sicily is more of a see ball get ball forward. If he has space he will take a good mark even over opponents but he needs the space, doesn't like contact and isn't big enough for that style of contested marking.
He isn't as good defensively but has had less time in the system.

All three of Gunners Sicily and TOB are light and we are getting less opportunity on the ground from balls spilling from the pack or being kept in for a stoppage.

I think Shoe can help with that, he also pairs well with Gunston with his ability to get up the ground and deliver the ball well by foot.

My feeling is we are one big body short up forward and the best option on our list that is available is Shoe. Spang really isn't a forward and I'm not sure the team could play all of BB Cegs and Fitz.
That leaves Ryan, it all becomes a question of what the best balance and structure is for the team, what's going to let us play to our strengths and give us the best chance of winning come September.

Not an issue for this week as Shoe has to get though for box hill unscathed and having missed the last 5 weeks he might need more than one game in the two's to get fit again.

At this point I just want him available for selection then we can see what Clarko and Fagan decide

 

[Main Man]

The yardstick is different for all three players.
Shoe and TOB are closest from a structural perspective they provide a contest, do the team things well create scoring opportunities for others and are good defensively with their pressure.

Sicily is more of a see ball get ball forward. If he has space he will take a good mark even over opponents but he needs the space, doesn't like contact and isn't big enough for that style of contested marking.
He isn't as good defensively but has had less time in the system.

All three of Gunners Sicily and TOB are light and we are getting less opportunity on the ground from balls spilling from the pack or being kept in for a stoppage.

I think Shoe can help with that, he also pairs well with Gunston with his ability to get up the ground and deliver the ball well by foot.

My feeling is we are one big body short up forward and the best option on our list that is available is Shoe. Spang really isn't a forward and I'm not sure the team could play all of BB Cegs and Fitz.
That leaves Ryan, it all becomes a question of what the best balance and structure is for the team, what's going to let us play to our strengths and give us the best chance of winning come September.

Not an issue for this week as Shoe has to get though for box hill unscathed and having missed the last 5 weeks he might need more than one game in the two's to get fit again.

At this point I just want him available for selection then we can see what Clarko and Fagan decide

I understand what you are saying but to be honest Schoe wasn't providing opportunity's for the ground level players in the opening rounds.

I don't understand the need for a big body for the sake of it, we are missing Rough but that doesn't mean Schoe is a good replacement based on similar body shape and size.

Needs to be bring more to the table than a big body which he failed to do in the early rounds.

As I keep saying needs to do it at Box Hill, hope he can, think it will be a great thing for him to go and dominate some games at any level, something he hasn't had the opportunity to do throughout his career.

 

[HairyO]

TOB has been more reliable, but I think Sicily has a lot more potential.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Mate let's be honest, it hasn't been just the first 3 rounds this year, it's been for most of his time up forward. Sicily & TOB showed more in their first 3 games than schoey has to date.

Wow, just wow

 

[Boo71]

I understand what you are saying but to be honest Schoe wasn't providing opportunity's for the ground level players in the opening rounds.

I don't understand the need for a big body for the sake of it

Yep. working off this principle we'd be better picking Fritz who is a much better mark, and more athletic.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

I understand what you are saying but to be honest Schoe wasn't providing opportunity's for the ground level players in the opening rounds.

I don't understand the need for a big body for the sake of it, we are missing Rough but that doesn't mean Schoe is a good replacement based on similar body shape and size.

Needs to be bring more to the table than a big body which he failed to do in the early rounds.

As I keep saying needs to do it at Box Hill, hope he can, think it will be a great thing for him to go and dominate some games at any level, something he hasn't had the opportunity to do throughout his career.

Schoe was providing plenty of opportunities
The problem was the players were completely out of position to make it count

He also provided plenty of space for teammates to run into

He's also the only player in our side capable to kicking 45+ set shots consistently

 

[Boo71]

Sicily has already shown he can be a genuine match winner.

You just don't drop players like that.

I wrote quite awhile ago that i felt O'Brien would always play better at AFL level than the congested mess, with poor foot skills, that VFL games quite often degenerate into.

The Shoe haters always underrate him and the Shoe defenders/lovers always overrate him - there seems to be no middle ground regarding Shoe on here.

 

[Gralin]

I understand what you are saying but to be honest Schoe wasn't providing opportunity's for the ground level players in the opening rounds.

I don't understand the need for a big body for the sake of it, we are missing Rough but that doesn't mean Schoe is a good replacement based on similar body shape and size.

Needs to be bring more to the table than a big body which he failed to do in the early rounds.

As I keep saying needs to do it at Box Hill, hope he can, think it will be a great thing for him to go and dominate some games at any level, something he hasn't had the opportunity to do throughout his career.

I'm not looking at it as a bigger body for the sake of it, I genuinely feel we need someone bigger than Gunston/TOB down there to help out.

I worry about the additional strain on Gunners, Punky, Sizzle and Poppy with how we are playing at the moment and whether it is sustainable for the year and finals. I also don't know that Sicily and TOB can go and play a full season when they never have before, the physical and mental strain of the step up will get them at some point I'm sure and being able to rotate and manage them requires us to have other options.

Yep. working off this principle we'd be better picking Fritz who is a much better mark, and more athletic.

If Fitz comes in I would think it would be more likely to be at the expense of either Cegs or BB (or to manage their workloads) he's a better forward than either of them as far as positioning but he's behind both as a ruck. I think if we had all three in the team we would be to slow