List Mgmt. OOC 2021, who is playing for their careers 2021 edition?

[Dalions]

If he stays in as a vfl top up, he only plays in the vfl.

Exactly, because that is where he would have been playing the year anyway, if still on the list.
So it is a good move by the club imo.

 

[AFLQLD]

Offering our delisted players VFL list spots suggests that there may have also been a bit of a rethink of our VFL strategy to limit the likely number of academy top up players needed in any given week. I think calling on more than a couple of academy boys for a game exposed us too much and made it harder to play the game style we wanted. I thought we were really blown away badly in a couple of the games before the VFL season was eventually abandoned.

Injuries tend to result in needing more top ups anyway but I think mature big-bodied VFL teams can make it hard work for a Lions team with more than a couple of top ups who are effectively Colts. There is a fair gap in terms of size, strength, experience and game sense between someone like Joyce or Ballenden and an 18 year old just stepping up to the level. The greatest development and learning comes when the VFL team is reasonably competitive in most games I think.

 

[mattsmob]

Offering our delisted players VFL list spots suggests that there may have also been a bit of a rethink of our VFL strategy to limit the likely number of academy top up players needed in any given week. I think calling on more than a couple of academy boys for a game exposed us too much and made it harder to play the game style we wanted. I thought we were really blown away badly in a couple of the games before the VFL season was eventually abandoned.

Injuries tend to result in needing more top ups anyway but I think mature big-bodied VFL teams can make it hard work for a Lions team with more than a couple of top ups who are effectively Colts. There is a fair gap in terms of size, strength, experience and game sense between someone like Joyce or Ballenden and an 18 year old just stepping up to the level. The greatest development and learning comes when the VFL team is reasonably competitive in most games I think.

Can't help the development of our other younger players getting smashed most weeks because they're playing with guys not physically up to it as well. One of the underrated benefits of bringing in Fort is that even if he does play in the VFL he should give our young mids first look around the contest.

 

[briztoon]

Offering our delisted players VFL list spots suggests that there may have also been a bit of a rethink of our VFL strategy to limit the likely number of academy top up players needed in any given week. I think calling on more than a couple of academy boys for a game exposed us too much and made it harder to play the game style we wanted. I thought we were really blown away badly in a couple of the games before the VFL season was eventually abandoned.

Injuries tend to result in needing more top ups anyway but I think mature big-bodied VFL teams can make it hard work for a Lions team with more than a couple of top ups who are effectively Colts. There is a fair gap in terms of size, strength, experience and game sense between someone like Joyce or Ballenden and an 18 year old just stepping up to the level. The greatest development and learning comes when the VFL team is reasonably competitive in most games I think.

There was an interesting comment made in the QAFL board, in regards to the discussion about the Lions looking for mature age top ups next year.

Essentially Lions players weren’t all that thrilled to be playing with so many academy top ups and felt it impeded there development.

 

[a mayes ing]

There was an interesting comment made in the QAFL board, in regards to the discussion about the Lions looking for mature age top ups next year.

Essentially Lions players weren’t all that thrilled to be playing with so many academy top ups and felt it impeded there development.

They arent wrong

 

[POBT]

The Academy system (for Brisbane anyway) is effectively a pyramid. They cast a wide net at an early age and the idea is to gradually whittle away the less talented, less committed or physically under-developed to the point that we have a small cohort at the top of the pyramid who are draft worthy. But that shouldn't be the only goal for the Academy. It should also be looking to improve the quality of local footy as well. I think that a worthy secondary goal is to provide a feeder to the local clubs (whether VFL or QAFL) of players who are more ready than they would have been through traditional development pathways (ie junior footy, to rep footy, to club colts).

However, the majority of Academy players are going to end up nothing more than decent VFL players, at best. The issue is that they are 17/18yo so they are effectively immature VFL prospects. Some who got a game with us last year may not even get a game at a Southport or Aspley. We need to maintain multiple pathways for those players. If the best thing for them is to play for us in the VFL, then we should do that. But we shouldn't just play them in order to make up a team, when that experience is going to be detrimental to their development.

I'm a firm believer that all boats rise with the tide and so we will ultimately gain in terms of draft prospects if we can continue to improve the standard of local footy, in addition to finding the elite talent. As you grow the base of the pyramid, the apex should grow too. I guess I would balance the conversation from "what is best for our VFL team" to "what is best for each individual Academy member, to enable them to reach the highest standard of footy possible". I think if we take a more player centric approach, in the context of both a development system and the broader footy ecosystem in Queensland, we will ultimately gain more as a code and as a club.

 

[Mighty Lions]

The Academy system (for Brisbane anyway) is effectively a pyramid. They cast a wide net at an early age and the idea is to gradually whittle away the less talented, less committed or physically under-developed to the point that we have a small cohort at the top of the pyramid who are draft worthy. But that shouldn't be the only goal for the Academy. It should also be looking to improve the quality of local footy as well. I think that a worthy secondary goal is to provide a feeder to the local clubs (whether VFL or QAFL) of players who are more ready than they would have been through traditional development pathways (ie junior footy, to rep footy, to club colts).

However, the majority of Academy players are going to end up nothing more than decent VFL players, at best. The issue is that they are 17/18yo so they are effectively immature VFL prospects. Some who got a game with us last year may not even get a game at a Southport or Aspley. We need to maintain multiple pathways for those players. If the best thing for them is to play for us in the VFL, then we should do that. But we shouldn't just play them in order to make up a team, when that experience is going to be detrimental to their development.

I'm a firm believer that all boats rise with the tide and so we will ultimately gain in terms of draft prospects if we can continue to improve the standard of local footy, in addition to finding the elite talent. As you grow the base of the pyramid, the apex should grow too. I guess I would balance the conversation from "what is best for our VFL team" to "what is best for each individual Academy member, to enable them to reach the highest standard of footy possible". I think if we take a more player centric approach, in the context of both a development system and the broader footy ecosystem in Queensland, we will ultimately gain more as a code and as a club.

Agree with what you say above but the key to all this is funding. The Academy has already been significantly cut and at the end of the day, as much as we would all like AFL to be promoted more in QLD from a development level, the cost to do that is somewhat a challenge. (Both developing young age talent as well as the broader system in QLD)

 

[briztoon]

The Academy system (for Brisbane anyway) is effectively a pyramid. They cast a wide net at an early age and the idea is to gradually whittle away the less talented, less committed or physically under-developed to the point that we have a small cohort at the top of the pyramid who are draft worthy. But that shouldn't be the only goal for the Academy. It should also be looking to improve the quality of local footy as well. I think that a worthy secondary goal is to provide a feeder to the local clubs (whether VFL or QAFL) of players who are more ready than they would have been through traditional development pathways (ie junior footy, to rep footy, to club colts).

However, the majority of Academy players are going to end up nothing more than decent VFL players, at best. The issue is that they are 17/18yo so they are effectively immature VFL prospects. Some who got a game with us last year may not even get a game at a Southport or Aspley. We need to maintain multiple pathways for those players. If the best thing for them is to play for us in the VFL, then we should do that. But we shouldn't just play them in order to make up a team, when that experience is going to be detrimental to their development.

I'm a firm believer that all boats rise with the tide and so we will ultimately gain in terms of draft prospects if we can continue to improve the standard of local footy, in addition to finding the elite talent. As you grow the base of the pyramid, the apex should grow too. I guess I would balance the conversation from "what is best for our VFL team" to "what is best for each individual Academy member, to enable them to reach the highest standard of footy possible". I think if we take a more player centric approach, in the context of both a development system and the broader footy ecosystem in Queensland, we will ultimately gain more as a code and as a club.

Can you post this on the QAFL board please, or I can cut and paste it to there.

You might find a lot (all) of the responses disagree with most of what you’ve posted.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Can you post this on the QAFL board please, or I can cut and paste it to there.

You might find a lot (all) of the responses disagree with most of what you’ve posted.

so you want to post it on the QAFL board so you can get responses back who disagree with what POBT has posted??? Is this a back door way of saying you think differently or can you add a bit more to clarify because I am confused with what you are actually saying.

 

[briztoon]

so you want to post it on the QAFL board so you can get responses back who disagree with what POBT has posted??? Is this a back door way of saying you think differently or can you add a bit more to clarify because I am confused with what you are actually saying.

I know from conversations on the QAFL board, that the QAFL club posters view the academy very differently.

Many of the posters there are membersor parents of an academy kid, or work for a QAFL club. For example, one is president of one of the GC clubs, another is a coach.

Pretty much to a man they pan the Academy, it’s role and effect on the QAFL clubs. From what they say communication is almost no existent from the Lions.

Seeing as I don’t have any interaction or connection to our Academy, I don’t have a view one way or the other.

I was just saying the view of the QAFL clubs appears to be very different from that of Lions members here.

I haven’t heard of a positive word about the academy from a parent or from a QAFL poster yet.

 

[POBT]

I know from conversations on the QAFL board, that the QAFL club posters view the academy very differently.

Many of the posters there are membersor parents of an academy kid, or work for a QAFL club. For example, one is president of one of the GC clubs, another is a coach.

Pretty much to a man they pan the Academy, it’s role and effect on the QAFL clubs. From what they say communication is almost no existent from the Lions.

Seeing as I don’t have any interaction or connection to our Academy, I don’t have a view one way or the other.

I was just saying the view of the QAFL clubs appears to be very different from that of Lions members here.

I haven’t heard of a positive word about the academy from a parent or from a QAFL poster yet.

I wouldn't read too much positivity into my post. I am posting what I think the Academy should be, not what it is. I know very well that there are many negative experiences associated with it. I don't think the Academy takes enough of a partnership approach with local clubs. I've seen first hand the dismissive approach Academy staffers have taken with local officials. I don't know enough to be across whether it is super common but it certainly happens.

The Lions have not always been good for local footy, even in the pre-Academy era.

 

[scoman]

I know from conversations on the QAFL board, that the QAFL club posters view the academy very differently.

Many of the posters there are membersor parents of an academy kid, or work for a QAFL club. For example, one is president of one of the GC clubs, another is a coach.

Pretty much to a man they pan the Academy, it’s role and effect on the QAFL clubs. From what they say communication is almost no existent from the Lions.

Seeing as I don’t have any interaction or connection to our Academy, I don’t have a view one way or the other.

I was just saying the view of the QAFL clubs appears to be very different from that of Lions members here.

I haven’t heard of a positive word about the academy from a parent or from a QAFL poster yet.

A bit of a thought bubble..... Would the parents and connections of Ben Keays, Harris Andrews, Eric Hipwood, Brothers Coleman etc.... share that same sentiment I wonder?
I have no skin in the game and have heard similar grumbling from parents and people in club land, however only from those who were not at that top tier of talent and unlikely to have made it anyway. Although I am going off a very small sample size here of two or three occasions.

 

[Mighty Lions]

I wouldn't read too much positivity into my post. I am posting what I think the Academy should be, not what it is. I know very well that there are many negative experiences associated with it. I don't think the Academy takes enough of a partnership approach with local clubs. I've seen first hand the dismissive approach Academy staffers have taken with local officials. I don't know enough to be across whether it is super common but it certainly happens.

The Lions have not always been good for local footy, even in the pre-Academy era.

To the contrary I think the Lions Academy has been good for local footy in some ways as well. I guess it all depends on who you talk to & what involvement they have in Queensland AFL. That said, the Lions Academy is named because it's primarily about nurturing scouted young talent and giving those kids the best chance of playing at the top level, hence.... playing for the Lions. If it was the AFL's goal to have them play QAFL at the top level, the name of the academy would be QAFL Academy which it's not. Should those scouted kids not be up to playing at the highest level, I am 100% sure some of the time the QAFL benefits from that nurtured talent provided by the Lions Academy. Its another perfect example of seeing things from one perspective to another but, in my opinion, the Lions Academy has been good for footy in Queensland for sure.

 

[POBT]

To the contrary I think the Lions Academy has been good for local footy in some ways as well. I guess it all depends on who you talk to & what involvement they have in Queensland AFL. That said, the Lions Academy is named because it's primarily about nurturing scouted young talent and giving those kids the best chance of playing at the top level, hence.... playing for the Lions. If it was the AFL's goal to have them play QAFL at the top level, the name of the academy would be QAFL Academy which it's not. Should those scouted kids not be up to playing at the highest level, I am 100% sure some of the time the QAFL benefits from that nurtured talent provided by the Lions Academy. Its another perfect example of seeing things from one perspective to another but, in my opinion, the Lions Academy has been good for footy in Queensland for sure.

I said "not always". I didn't suggest the Lions have never contributed positively to local footy. Overall, the code contributes greatly due to the presence of a professional team in the region.

As you rightly say, the Lions should be focused on the Lions first. But my point is that looking after and respecting local football is good for the Lions. Taking a more holistic and long term view, the Lions should see enormous value in growing the base.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

The dim view of the Academy seems to be a historical thing. I don't know if relations are on the improve since it's been revamped. But those involved in local footy tend to have long memories and I'd argue would have trouble adjusting their views. Not all, but some.

I'd probably add that with the academy getting less money budget-wise, the QAFL clubs might get their wish of seeing their highly-rated youngsters back with them more often, if as rumoured we're looking more at mature-aged players for the VFL side.

 

[Mighty Lions]

I said "not always". I didn't suggest the Lions have never contributed positively to local footy. Overall, the code contributes greatly due to the presence of a professional team in the region.

As you rightly say, the Lions should be focused on the Lions first. But my point is that looking after and respecting local football is good for the Lions. Taking a more holistic and long term view, the Lions should see enormous value in growing the base.

Understand what you say 100%. The Lions Academy does in fact do exactly that relative to the $ they have to invest. The % of kids that evolve into AFL footballers at the highest level is very small which could be one of the reasons parents etc dont have a "warm & fuzzy" assessment of the academy should their "little Johnny" be cut at any given time in the system.
Another positive the Academy does (and encourages) is for "outstanding" juniors in the academy to stay with their junior club rather than moving to a higher profile club elsewhere in their given region. By receiving elite coaching and training via the academy, they get what their development requires rather than think they have to move to an alternative club to further their development. By doing this they help the smaller clubs within AFLQ to survive and keep their junior numbers up and growing year after year. Thats gotta be good in growing a base in QLD.

 

[briztoon]

Wasn’t sure where to post it, but I asked in the QAFL thread if anyone had heard rumours of who we’re looking at, as mature aged players for our vfl team.

Rolls, Ballenden, Baulch, Franks, Fletcher, Greene, C.Lyons all names that have been flagged 'apparently'.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Wasn’t sure where to post it, but I asked in the QAFL thread if anyone had heard rumours of who we’re looking at, as mature aged players for our vfl team.

I'd take anything that poster says with a grain of salt.

 

[briztoon]

I'd take anything that poster says with a grain of salt.

So I’ve been told.