Our defence is crap because...

[Dooky]

Our defence is a joke because of Dennis Pagan. Dennis' quickfix going into the 2004 season that saw us win 10 games and finish a semi-respectable 11th lead him to pick up players like Mick Martyn, David Teague, Brett Johnson, Jordan Bannister, Cory Mcgrath, Daniel Harford, Troy Longmuir, Corey McKernan. Admittedly not everyone of these players was picked up by Pagan, I think all excpet for MCkernan and not all before the 2005 season. I cannot help but think that out of these 6 or 7 potential draft picks there could have been the possibility of a gun full back or atleast 2 or 3 solid key position defenders. Lets not forget that of our current elder key pos defenders none have come through the draft. setanta - irish rookie, thornton - rookie, and waite - drafted f/s primarily as a forward. how could we possibly have missed this when drafting/trading in the last 5 years? I blame you Denis!

(also, I can't help but think how handy Karl Norman would be to us right now...if only he had of kept his head right :-(...)

 

[serenityNow]

Our defence is a joke because of Dennis Pagan. Dennis' quickfix going into the 2005 season that saw us win 10 games and finish a semi-respectable 10th lead him to pick up players like Mick Martyn, David Teague, Brett Johnson, Jordan Bannister, Cory Mcgrath, Daniel Harford, Troy Longmuir, Corey McKernan. Admittedly not everyone of these players was picked up by Pagan, I think all excpet for MCkernan and not all before the 2005 season. I cannot help but think that out of these 6 or 7 potential draft picks there could have been the possibility of a gun full back or atleast 2 or 3 solid key position defenders. Lets not forget that of our current elder key pos defenders none have come through the draft. setanta - irish rookie, thornton - rookie, and waite - drafted f/s primarily as a forward. how could we possibly have missed this when drafting/trading in the last 5 years? I blame you Denis!

(also, I can't help but think how handy Karl Norman would be to us right now...if only he had of kept his head right :-(...)

2004 we won 10 games and finished 11th i think.
Norman had his chance..............but you make some good points we got nothing but recycled players that year and none are with us now (ecl Bannister). Write it up as another pagan triumph.

 

[thylacine60]

Strikes me that posts like this are just a whine and blame effort that can only take us backwards. It's done. We have to take these mistakes with us and learn from them.

Unfortunately there are only so many players available to us via the ND and the PSD. Also unfortunately we can no longer pay over the salary cap and rape and pillage other clubs for our playing personnel. As well it usually takes years before young draftees come on. You yourself have suggested recruiting a gun fullback or key defender "might" have happened. Who knows?

We are all sick and tired of the slow speed of progress being shown but starting a kick Pagan thread just aint gonna help much.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

... our midfielders aren't really prepared to go back,
and give out the one percenters,
they would much rather rack up the stats,
which seems to impress people.

22 consecutive weeks of 100 points conceded by the way.
http://stats.rleague.com/afl/teams/carlton/streaks.html

 

[Thrawn]

Lack of communication. Improve that first and things will start getting better.

 

[True Bluebagger]

Our priority for this draft should be to pick the best potential key defender even if he is not neccesarily the best player available.

I know some supporters want to pick the best player but sometimes you have to draft for your needs and right now we need some tall defenders.

 

[Blue Dawn]

Really hopeful that within a year Austin will have stood up next to Jamison and that two of Army, Ando and Browne will be there too. Only then will we be on the way to fielding a backline capable of winning finals.

 

[thylacine60]

Unfortunately we look to be a chance for a very high pick this year. Another PP isn't out of the question if Thursday night's effort is maintained.

 

[mediumsizered]

Our defence is a joke because of Dennis Pagan. Dennis' quickfix going into the 2004 season that saw us win 10 games and finish a semi-respectable 11th lead him to pick up players like Mick Martyn, David Teague, Brett Johnson, Jordan Bannister, Cory Mcgrath, Daniel Harford, Troy Longmuir, Corey McKernan. Admittedly not everyone of these players was picked up by Pagan, I think all excpet for MCkernan and not all before the 2005 season. I cannot help but think that out of these 6 or 7 potential draft picks there could have been the possibility of a gun full back or atleast 2 or 3 solid key position defenders. Lets not forget that of our current elder key pos defenders none have come through the draft. setanta - irish rookie, thornton - rookie, and waite - drafted f/s primarily as a forward. how could we possibly have missed this when drafting/trading in the last 5 years? I blame you Denis!

(also, I can't help but think how handy Karl Norman would be to us right now...if only he had of kept his head right :-(...)

Just to set the record straight, the players you have named were mostly picked up at the end of 2003 season, in which we finished 15th. It was this group of players that gave us the spike in 2004 & won the 2005 Wizard Cup. Unfortunately they were only ever going to be a short term fix. We selected Andrew Walker (Pick #2, ND) & Nick Stevens (Pick #2, PSD) with the only decent picks we had access to in the 2003 drafts. After these picks we only had late picks & trades from which most of the players you have named were selected.

I think the important point you miss is the only players drafted by Carlton prior to 2002 & still on an AFL list are Fevola, Houlihan, Wiggins, Waite, Thornton & Massie (who of course is a Crow these days). In contrast, Geelong's 2007 premiership side contained the following players drafted/traded by the club prior to 2002: Scarlett, Wojcinski, Harley, Corey, Chapman, Ling, Enright, Mooney, Hunt, Bartel, Kelly, Johnson, Ablett jnr, King & Rooke. That is 15 players the Cats fielded in their GF team that are in the 24-30 age group ie the best playing years of their careers.

In the 6 seasons from 1998-2003, Geelong only contested 1 finals series, following the turnover of their lists of the mid '90s, that took them to 3 GFs in 4 years. During this time they had full access to the draft, traded & also got some pretty handy F/S draft picks. On the other hand, Carlton, after the previously unprecedented success of the 1995 season, chose not to utilise their full access to the draft, instead trading for players like Justin Murphy, Craig Devonport (he was traded for pick 19, which the Saints used to draft Barry Hall), Ben Sexton, Ben Nelson, Andrew Balkwill, Mick McGuane, Sean Charles, Mick Mansfield, Stephen O'Reilly, Andrew Eccles, David Gallagher, Corey McKernan, Justin Murphy (again), Lindsay Smith (we did also trade for Lappin & Hickmott, so not all was lost). We didn't totally ignore the draft though, drafting such players as Sam Smart, Damien Lock, Chris Jackson, Kris Massie (as previously mentioned, now a Crow), Adam Chatfield, Craig Black, Trent Hoppner, Murray Vance, Fev, Ian Prendergast, Brett Backwell, Richard Kelly, Hoops, Luke Livinston, Trent Sporn, Simon Wiggins, Blake Campbell, Sean O'Keeffe, Callan Beasy, Justin Davies & Jarrad Waite.

The moral of the story. Denis Pagan didn't achieve much at Carlton, but the situation we currently find ourselves in is far more deep-seated than the lack of success under Denis Pagan. While Geelong were rebuilding after playing finals in the early - mid '90s, on the back of some very good recruiting by Stephen Wells, we were too stubborn/pigheaded/lacking foresight to actually plan for the inevitable slide down the ladder that we were going to suffer as part of the AFL's equalisation policy. We now find ourselves 'smack bang' in the middle of a rebuilding process that should have commenced 10 years ago.

P.S. I know we have already gone down this road on a number of occasions, but sometimes people need to be reminded where we have come from to get to where we are now.

 

[thylacine60]

Possibly the most informative, well researched and level-headed post I've read here. Well done, very much appreciated.

 

[WeninRome]

Just to set the record straight, the players you have named were mostly picked up at the end of 2003 season, in which we finished 15th. It was this group of players that gave us the spike in 2004 & won the 2005 Wizard Cup. Unfortunately they were only ever going to be a short term fix. We selected Andrew Walker (Pick #2, ND) & Nick Stevens (Pick #2, PSD) with the only decent picks we had access to in the 2003 drafts. After these picks we only had late picks & trades from which most of the players you have named were selected.

I think the important point you miss is the only players drafted by Carlton prior to 2002 & still on an AFL list are Fevola, Houlihan, Wiggins, Waite, Thornton & Massie (who of course is a Crow these days). In contrast, Geelong's 2007 premiership side contained the following players drafted/traded by the club prior to 2002: Scarlett, Wojcinski, Harley, Corey, Chapman, Ling, Enright, Mooney, Hunt, Bartel, Kelly, Johnson, Ablett jnr, King & Rooke. That is 15 players the Cats fielded in their GF team that are in the 24-30 age group ie the best playing years of their careers.

In the 6 seasons from 1998-2003, Geelong only contested 1 finals series, following the turnover of their lists of the mid '90s, that took them to 3 GFs in 4 years. During this time they had full access to the draft, traded & also got some pretty handy F/S draft picks. On the other hand, Carlton, after the previously unprecedented success of the 1995 season, chose not to utilise their full access to the draft, instead trading for players like Justin Murphy, Craig Devonport (he was traded for pick 19, which the Saints used to draft Barry Hall), Ben Sexton, Ben Nelson, Andrew Balkwill, Mick McGuane, Sean Charles, Mick Mansfield, Stephen O'Reilly, Andrew Eccles, David Gallagher, Corey McKernan, Justin Murphy (again), Lindsay Smith (we did also trade for Lappin & Hickmott, so not all was lost). We didn't totally ignore the draft though, drafting such players as Sam Smart, Damien Lock, Chris Jackson, Kris Massie (as previously mentioned, now a Crow), Adam Chatfield, Craig Black, Trent Hoppner, Murray Vance, Fev, Ian Prendergast, Brett Backwell, Richard Kelly, Hoops, Luke Livinston, Trent Sporn, Simon Wiggins, Blake Campbell, Sean O'Keeffe, Callan Beasy, Justin Davies & Jarrad Waite.

The moral of the story. Denis Pagan didn't achieve much at Carlton, but the situation we currently find ourselves in is far more deep-seated than the lack of success under Denis Pagan. While Geelong were rebuilding after playing finals in the early - mid '90s, on the back of some very good recruiting by Stephen Wells, we were too stubborn/pigheaded/lacking foresight to actually plan for the inevitable slide down the ladder that we were going to suffer as part of the AFL's equalisation policy. We now find ourselves 'smack bang' in the middle of a rebuilding process that should have commenced 10 years ago.

P.S. I know we have already gone down this road on a number of occasions, but sometimes people need to be reminded where we have come from to get to where we are now.

great post thanks!

 

[The Real Deal]

I just began a thread today about this very topic and was hoping someone would explain the situation as you have just done. To go from a consistent finalist to then three spoons and two 15ths in the space of 6 years is a pretty big drop down. The question now is- are we now on the right track with what we've drafted and is it only a matter of time?

 

[mediumsizered]

I just began a thread today about this very topic and was hoping someone would explain the situation as you have just done. To go from a consistent finalist to then three spoons and two 15ths in the space of 6 years is a pretty big drop down. The question now is- are we now on the right track with what we've drafted and is it only a matter of time?

Wouldn't you love to have a crystal ball to find the answer to this one? In response to the title of this thread, in the last 3 years we have recruited Bower, Jamison, Austin, Anderson, Grigg, Armfield, Hadley, Browne to form part of our defence. The previously recruited Waite & O'hAilpin have also found there way into our defence.

It was always going to be a big job to replace the likes of Dean, Sexton, Silvagni, Christou, McKay etc when they retired. The fact we didn't recruit players to replace them before they retired is what is biting us now.

Of course our forward line is still a work in progress as well. Once again, it was always going to be hard to replace Sticks, Spalding, Pearce etc & our task wasn't made any easier by the walk out of Hamill & premature retirement/delisting of Whitnall due to injury. Fev & Fisher are the bright lights in a forward line that is lacking depth. Edwards & Kreuzer are our 'great white hopes' to give us some depth, but we still need some mid-size forwards to step up eg Houlihan, Gibbs, Grigg (I know I have already mentioned him as a defender) plus input from Betts & our midfield eg Judd, Stevens, Murphy, Simpson (he needs to improve his kicking on goal).

Patience is definitely the key & I recognise it is hard to be patient after 6 miserable years, but we are looking at rectifying the recruiting disasters/draft penalties of up to 10 years standing. I don't think any other club in the competition has ever had to come from as far back as what we currently are (perhaps St Kilda, who were just totally abysmal for so long), so we are really asking about the unknown.

 

[True Bluebagger]

A great summary MS. As you concisely pointed out our present day lack of depth on our list has very deep seated origins and aren't necessarily a product of poor recent drafting.

Your description of the Cats' list was exactly as I quoted to a fellow football fan recently and their arrival as a footbll power coincides with the majority of their squad falling into the age 24-30 and 100-160 game bracket. People have forgotten that for such a long time Geelong were touted as the great under achievers of the competition even as recent as 2006.

A significant part of our problem at the moment is that we don't have enough talented and experienced senior players to set the example and show the younger players the way.

Imagine how young backman such as Jamieson, Bower, Austin, O'Halpin and co. would benefit from being mentored on and off the field by the presence of a Silvangi, McKay, Sexton or Dean in the playing group.

Unfortunately our best defender Thorton is too busy looking after his own man to be directing where the younger players should run, kick to or learn cut down the angles.

Recruiting premiership players Judd and Hadley is obviously a step in the right direction but more experienced hard nuts are required if we are to progress sooner than later.

 

[gandaal]

Very complicated answers to something which is very simple.

Our defense is 'crap' because...

1. We don't have a recognized full back
2. All of our tall defenders are young and/or inexperienced
3. Our midfield doesn't chase or run hard enough during the game
4. We keep on playing better teams who kick more goals than us

 

[thylacine60]

Very complicated answers to something which is very simple.

Our defense is 'crap' because...

1. We don't have a recognized full back
2. All of our tall defenders are young and/or inexperienced
3. Our midfield doesn't chase or run hard enough during the game
4. We keep on playing better teams who kick more goals than us

Hate it when that happens.

 

[audas]

Whether we like it or not carlton has problems in p-layer development. Either everyone we draft is crap or this is the case. It is gut wrenching to see teams take on players and develop them, while we are either busy delisting or patching together teams of misfits who play all over the ground.

Thornton, Setanta playing up forward, Waite, walker in the backline. When we are not dealing with off field indescretions, then we are dealing with injuries, again through mismanagement, not sure on that, but cant be dismissed.

So far we have seen Waite, Fish, walker and Simpson step up as players that could go to other teams. (Marc is almost there). Three of these guys are almost constantly injured -.

This may all be due tot he fact we are so busy with our finances, coach, culture, board, losses, media etc that the welfare and develoment of our players has been sacrificed. The pressure to turn things around cant have helped.

 

[donnie5]

no real KP backmen in your side, Waite is your best. however i think he is better up forward IMO.

 

[blues4flag]

2004 we won 10 games and finished 11th i think.
Norman had his chance..............but you make some good points we got nothing but recycled players that year and none are with us now (ecl Bannister). Write it up as another pagan triumph.

Let's not forget the best of the lot in Scotland...

And brilliant post, MSR.

 

[barone]

because they dont work hard enough to help out at the contest, instead thye prefer to stay 10 meters from where the ball is and look on, while there team mate gets mauled by the opponent.
OUR TEAM IS UN DISCIPLINED!

 

[Dramoth]

Livingston was supposed to be mentored by Mick Martyn... but we all know how that turned out in the end...

Mick made his 300 and retired and we had to play livo 2 years early.

Thanks for the agony Denis

 

[blues4flag]

Livingston was supposed to be mentored by Mick Martyn... but we all know how that turned out in the end...

Mick made his 300 and retired and we had to play livo 2 years early.

Thanks for the agony Denis

Ugh...just when I'd forgotten of the scourge that was Martyn.

 

[Thrawn]

Ugh...just when I'd forgotten of the scourge that was Martyn.

Still have the shivers. When I saw him on the news putting on a Carlton jumper, the newsreader announced "in a surprising move, Carlton gave a lifeline to former Kangaroos fullback Mick Martyn with their last pick in the draft." It then showed snippets of him with Pagan laughing and smiling.

He was laughing like an ogre. Har har har harrrr

 

[iRemember87]

I think Ratten said that Defence was a priority and in 2008 i think he will be setting in place the backline to take the club forward.

The key to any back line is not size IMO but having a backline that play together week in week out, to gel and understand each other. Over the past 5 years we seem to have a different backline each week, with only Thorton and Scotlan to consistant regular players.

We need to make a fair judgement on our backline after 2008.

 

[The Maleman]

I thought Ratten & Co. had a terrible night on Thurs for multiple reasons:

#1 Jamison is 87 kilos. Playing on 110 kilo richo.........how is this beneficial at the moment for his development. He should be made to do what Leaigh Matthews did for Mal Michael when he arrived at the Lions. ‘Go into the gym & you won’t leave until your above 100 kilos’. Then we can have Jamo playing on the gorillas such as Richo.

#2 Setanta is NOT a ruckman – he shows promise as a key defender, & all teams need 3 medium-big sized defenders. I know we had no other options in the ruck against Richmond but please let him settle at FB/CHB.

#3 All summer Ratten has spoken about Waite and CHB ! why then do I peer up to the Punt Rd endhalf way thru the 2nd quarter & he’s playing at CHF? An absolute disgrace!