Analysis Our Forward 6

[Freomaniac]

easily the most talked about part of our side not from just Freo fans but other fans as well...Longs post coming up. But who cares?

I could of tagged this as Analysis or Strategy or Opinion but what ever

Now in round 1 we kicked 10 goals and 13 behinds that was 73 points. We wont be winning too much games with that score line. If that was 13 goals and 10 behinds or 88 points. That would of been enough for freo in that 2012-5 period.

Despite the loss, we had 10 different goal kickers as well including young guys like Blakely and Langdon getting one each. we would of been getting more goals had McCarthy kicked more than 1 goal and 5 behinds. that could of been easily of been 3-5 goals to him and freo would of kicked 13-15 goals. Not enough to beat geelong that day but would of beaten a fair few teams. Guys like Kersten and Suban drooped marks in the forward 50 as well.

Its obvious our forward line is a work in progress, But there are some good signs on the weekend to a degree. I personally don't think Freo have the worse forward line in the AFL. If Freo are to win games this season, Walters and McCarthy have to kick 3-4 each.

This is what Freos forward 6 was for round 1...

HF: D Pearce, McCarthy, Langdon
FF: Walters, Kersten, Weller

It was a small but quick forward 6. McCarthy and Kersten are both around 190 cm and 90 kg. Both are not Power forwards. Both are Chris Tarrant like forwards that score goals from set shots from leads.

We All know what Walters can do. Langdon should stay in his spot in the HFF. I loved his set shot goal vs Collingwood that gave us the win in the Preseason game a couple of weeks back. Weller and Danyle pearce will rotate between midfield and forward flanks along with other guys.

Now I know there are guys like Bennell, Ballantyne and Apeness still injured. Any of those 3 would improve a forward line. Guys like Logue and Brennan Cox and Luke Strnadica are untested. Freo don't have a "Power" Forward available and closest we got to one is Tabs or Apeness

If our team had the full squad available... this would be my forward 6...

HF: Bennell, McCarthy, Langdon/Weller
FF: Walters, Apeness/Tabs, ballantyne

Again... We know what quality Bennell, McCarthy and Walters are. Langdon and weller are both good but I will give the nod to Langdon as he is good with his set shots.

If I had to chose between Apeness and Tabs as our power forward, I give the vote to Apeness. I have put Ballantyne in there. Yes his defensive pressure is good. Gutted he wont play 20 games this year as he could kick 25-30 goals this year. Ballantyne might be inconsistent But there were games when Freo would win close games and Ballas kicked 2-4 goals on the day.


Saying that... I still think even with our current players available, Freo can kick 12-14 goals and still win games. That can range from kicking 12 goals and 6 behinds totalling 78 points or up to 14 goals and 16 behinds totalling 100 points.

 

[Unique Name]

What I would love to know is how our midfield would go without Fyfe. While we still have Mundy, and Sandi is still dominating the ruck.

Sandi - Mundy - Neale - S Hill
As our starting midfield. Blakely moves up a spot and gets more time in the guts, Balic then takes Blakely's spot on the HFF.

This is still a good midfield and they would be kicking to a much better forward line.

Bennell - Fyfe - Balic
Walters - McCarthy - Apeness

Obviously Bennell and Apeness aren't fit yet. But would love to see how this forward line would go sometime this season. Bennell and Fyfe can rotate and do bursts in the midfield.

 

[DaveLister]

wouldn't look too much into who is named where. Weller didn't play forward, D Pearce didn't forward and Langdon wasn't up forward for a lot of the game.
Listening to Ross' most recent press conference he says they didn't want to move Weller forward because they are thinking long term, they want him down back.

 

[armpit]

People should find your post uplifting. All those names being thrown around. It's not for those who can't practice patience however. What do we want. When do we want it. Now, round one.

 

[Freomaniac]

People should find your post uplifting. All those names being thrown around. It's not for those who can't practice patience however. What do we want. When do we want it. Now, round one.

have to make with what we got until our better player come back from injury

 

[Rion]

What I would love to know is how our midfield would go without Fyfe. While we still have Mundy, and Sandi is still dominating the ruck.

Sandi - Mundy - Neale - S Hill
As our starting midfield. Blakely moves up a spot and gets more time in the guts, Balic then takes Blakely's spot on the HFF.

This is still a good midfield and they would be kicking to a much better forward line.

Bennell - Fyfe - Balic
Walters - McCarthy - Apeness

Obviously Bennell and Apeness aren't fit yet. But would love to see how this forward line would go sometime this season. Bennell and Fyfe can rotate and do bursts in the midfield.

I've always been pretty against the idea of shifting Fyfe to a permanent forward but I reckon we've got to the point where it just needs to be trialed for 2-3 games. Imo the gap, particularly in contested marking, between what Kersten and Fyfe can offer in the forward line is considerably greater than the difference between Fyfe and say what a Blakely/Balic can do with a full time role in the middle.

We absolutely dominated in the middle against Geelong (as we'll do almost every game with our current lineup) yet it all came to nothing because we had basically nothing going on up forward.

 

[blue shark]

I have posted on other threads that Sean Darcy should play the Apeness role, we need a power forward,
and at least he is capable below his knees, throws his weight around.
Sandi and Griff forward are hopeless, and we are fast tracking our next number one ruckman.

 

[meima]

I have posted on other threads that Sean Darcy should play the Apeness role, we need a power forward,
and at least he is capable below his knees, throws his weight around.
Sandi and Griff forward are hopeless, and we are fast tracking our next number one ruckman.

Stranidica is not so good as ruckmen , but his marking and mobility is equal or better than apeness.

 

[blue shark]

Stranidica is not so good as ruckmen , but his marking and mobility is equal or better than apeness.

I would prefer Stranidica to play more games for Peel, Darcy is already physically mature, and maybe
we need what he brings to the midfield.
Going from the rookie draft to AFL is a huge jump, so early in the season.

 

[kp junior]

I have posted on other threads that Sean Darcy should play the Apeness role, we need a power forward,
and at least he is capable below his knees, throws his weight around.
Sandi and Griff forward are hopeless, and we are fast tracking our next number one ruckman.

Great call. Griff is a dead end. Move on and get games into the next gen.
While you're at it delete Pearce, Suban, and Dawson. Johnson hanging on by the elastic of his pants


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[blue shark]

Stranidica is not so good as ruckmen , but his marking and mobility is equal or better than apeness.

If McGovern can come from the rookie draft and become best 22 for the eagles, so can this kid. but I don't
think it will be this year.

 

[Scham]

This is what Freos forward 6 was for round 1...

HF: D Pearce, McCarthy, Langdon
FF: Walters, Kersten, Weller

It was a small but quick forward 6. McCarthy and Kersten are both around 190 cm and 90 kg. Both are not Power forwards. Both are Chris Tarrant like forwards that score goals from set shots from leads.

We All know what Walters can do. Langdon should stay in his spot in the HFF. I loved his set shot goal vs Collingwood that gave us the win in the Preseason game a couple of weeks back. Weller and Danyle pearce will rotate between midfield and forward flanks along with other guys.

Now I know there are guys like Bennell, Ballantyne and Apeness still injured. Any of those 3 would improve a forward line. Guys like Logue and Brennan Cox and Luke Strnadica are untested. Freo don't have a "Power" Forward available and closest we got to one is Tabs or Apeness

If our team had the full squad available... this would be my forward 6...

HF: Bennell, McCarthy, Langdon/Weller
FF: Walters, Apeness/Tabs, ballantyne

Again... We know what quality Bennell, McCarthy and Walters are. Langdon and weller are both good but I will give the nod to Langdon as he is good with his set shots.

If I had to chose between Apeness and Tabs as our power forward, I give the vote to Apeness. I have put Ballantyne in there. Yes his defensive pressure is good. Gutted he wont play 20 games this year as he could kick 25-30 goals this year. Ballantyne might be inconsistent But there were games when Freo would win close games and Ballas kicked 2-4 goals on the day.


Saying that... I still think even with our current players available, Freo can kick 12-14 goals and still win games. That can range from kicking 12 goals and 6 behinds totalling 78 points or up to 14 goals and 16 behinds totalling 100 points.

You lost me at this;

This is what Freos forward 6 was for round 1...

HF: D Pearce, McCarthy, Langdon
FF: Walters, Kersten, Weller

Langdon didn't spend much time forward at all and Weller was in the backline all game. Suban and Blakely were forward and Griff, Sandi, and Fyfe rotated through with Jonno playing most of the second half down there.

The forward line was terrible on Sunday and unfortunately the one and only good sign for the short term was that McCarthy will get better.

 

[wayToGo_]

You lost me at this;

This is what Freos forward 6 was for round 1...

HF: D Pearce, McCarthy, Langdon
FF: Walters, Kersten, Weller

Langdon didn't spend much time forward at all and Weller was in the backline all game. Suban and Blakely were forward and Griff, Sandi, and Fyfe rotated through with Jonno playing most of the second half down there.

The forward line was terrible on Sunday and unfortunately the one and only good sign for the short term was that McCarthy will get better.

Yeah I suspect Freomaniac got that from the team lineup from AFL.com which rarely reflects the actual line-ups in the game itself.

I think we started the game with 5 forwards and had Langdon lining up effectively as an extra winger (with Brad Hill on the same wing, DPearce on the other wing). Griffin started on the bench I think.

C +Langdon
HF Suban McCarthy Blakely
F Kersten Walters

It looked a very strange setup and I am not sure what they were trying to do but whatever it was, it didn't seem to work.

 

[Freomaniac]

Yeah I suspect Freomaniac got that from the team lineup from AFL.com which rarely reflects the actual line-ups in the game itself.

I think we started the game with 5 forwards and had Langdon lining up effectively as an extra winger (with Brad Hill on the same wing, DPearce on the other wing). Griffin started on the bench I think.

C +Langdon
HF Suban McCarthy Blakely
F Kersten Walters

It looked a very strange setup and I am not sure what they were trying to do but whatever it was, it didn't seem to work.

You lost me at this;

This is what Freos forward 6 was for round 1...

HF: D Pearce, McCarthy, Langdon
FF: Walters, Kersten, Weller

Langdon didn't spend much time forward at all and Weller was in the backline all game. Suban and Blakely were forward and Griff, Sandi, and Fyfe rotated through with Jonno playing most of the second half down there.

The forward line was terrible on Sunday and unfortunately the one and only good sign for the short term was that McCarthy will get better.

yeah I did got the forward 6 from the AFL web site.

But this week we might through that method again with kersten And McCarthy as our 2 talls and both our half forwards as quick mids

 

[Righteo]

You lost me at this;

This is what Freos forward 6 was for round 1...

HF: D Pearce, McCarthy, Langdon
FF: Walters, Kersten, Weller

Langdon didn't spend much time forward at all and Weller was in the backline all game. Suban and Blakely were forward and Griff, Sandi, and Fyfe rotated through with Jonno playing most of the second half down there.

The forward line was terrible on Sunday and unfortunately the one and only good sign for the short term was that McCarthy will get better.

It's pretty bad. Walters and McCarthy are our only two good, legitimate forwards. Kersten is a natural forward but I still don't even know what my expectations of him should be right now, so I'll go with none, and the rest are forwards only through necessity. Taberner is a forward but I don't think he can ever be what we need him to be. I've seen him described on here as a tall forward flanker and I think that's apt. That said, he's going to be in contention for selection for the foreseeable future which is something his haters need to come to terms with.

Some guys, like Weller, Crozier, BHill and Langdon, have reasonable goal sense but it's clear they aren't comfortable, or even trusted by the coaches, to predominantly play there. There's a lot more to being a forward than simply knowing where the goals are. I question their positioning instincts, ability to move their defenders without infringing on them (look at Michael Walters who is absolutely amazing with the way he uses his tiny frame to subtly nudge his man out of the way with impeccable timing to create space), the ability to recognise when and how to lead and just all the other associated nuances. That said, right now I think they're the best we can do. Not ideal but having a slew of pacy mids/flankers who can rotate through there would at the very least make things unpredictable and pose a few matchup issues.

This is what sets Harley Bennell apart from those other mids/hybrid mids, he's definitely someone I have faith in to perform well as a forward. 80-90% of gametime as a forward with the rare burst through the middle to allow Fyfe to drift forward would do me just fine. Ballantyne is also a natural forward and if he can get somewhere close to his 2014 form he'll be a huge asset. Balic will be another to keep an eye on. I believe it was wayToGo_ who assured me he could easily adapt if he finds himself selected as the sacrificial lamb Ross loves to cast into the Bermuda-Half-Forward-Triangle of death that has claimed so many.
If we could keep those three guys + Sonny & Cam+the best performing KPF/Ruckman-cum-KPF on the park (Tabs/Apeness/Kersten/Griff/Cox/Darcy etc) I think we could see something special develop. A lot of water to go under the bridge and a lot of IFs before such a scenario is even possible though.

Tentative best forward 6:
Bennell - McCarthy - Balic/Langdon
Ballas - Apeness - Sonny Walters

Went with Apeness for my quick mock-up, health-wise I think he's the least likely to make FF his own but I think he'd be the best option in an ideal world. Physical as hell on the ground and in the air, I reckon he could put his knees to great use. He (or whoever it may be) doesn't even need to become a star, a goal a game while bringing everything to ground would be acceptable.

Not going to talk about Fyfe too much, yes he's a beast up forward but I don't think our midfield can afford to lose him. If Connor Blakely's development accelerates rapidly to the point where we can leave him in the middle for whole quarters at a time I might rethink it. Can find the footy and win clearances like few on our list can but I'm not sure he's close to, like, 90% TOG every week, which is what we'd need. Shane Yarran would be more than handy, can't help but mention it. **** it. Would have been perfect for that right fwd flank Balic occupies. Don't like MJ as a forward, never have. my 2¢ after 1 round.

 

[Righteo]

oh yeah, and if it wasn't clear, we need to draft more forwards. a lot more. Could do worse than a couple of mature-agers dominating state leagues as rookie options ,for a start

 

[Frigate]

The concept of "untested" is silly. The AFL is not a testing ground. The WAFL IS THE TESTING GROUND. The AFL is the elite performance ground. It is stupidity to put an average WAFL player into the AFL and expect them to be anything but mediocre.

There are so many 1st division competitions (The WAFL is probably 3rd in the country, behind the VFL and the SANFL - ouch). The Sandover medallist Kane Mitchell was killing it in the SANFL, but still struggled to get a game for Port. Other examples are Tom Mitchell and Jack Steele - getting 40+ possessions a game and kicking goals and tackling, and still not getting games for Sydney or GWS.

A Fremantle example that springs to mind was Des Headland. Whenever he was dropped to WAFL (or recovering from injury - more usual) he would kick 6 goals and have 30 possessions (like Martin in the AFL).

It is a massive step up. You do not go from WAFL as an average player, and become a great AFL player. Those that are AFL ready, are stand out performers week in week out for their aligned clubs. My belief is sports people get more from success in confidence and backing themselves, than negativity by losing or getting their pants pulled down.

My final example is Taberner. He seems on the fringe to me. He kicks 5 in the WAFL - awesome, can he back it up next week, do you bring him straight in, or do you let him have another game to kick another 4-6? If he plays AFL against Port away, will he kick 2 and fail? What is the better development path for Tabs for both him and the FFC? I think he is a keeper, I believe he is a confidence player.

 

[wayToGo_]

Taberner is a forward but I don't think he can ever be what we need him to be. I've seen him described on here as a tall forward flanker and I think that's apt.

To secure a spot in our B22 long term I think Tabs either has to improve his ruck craft and contested marking inside 50 and compete to become the second ruck/fwd, OR he has to become the primary tall (leading) target inside 50 (be a dangerous goal scorer and draw pressure and defenders away from McCarthy and others inside 50). Being JUST a tall flanker provides zero value to our forward line and just wastes a spot imo. I think Apeness and Strnadica are far more likely to succeed longer term in the ruck/fwd role but for now if he can show enough ruck craft to break into the team (ie Griffin's spot) then he'll at least get an opportunity to show he might be that primary leading tall target. Still doubtful he'll make it but it'd be great if he proves me wrong.

Tentative best forward 6:
Bennell - McCarthy - Balic/Langdon
Ballas - Apeness - Sonny Walters

Yeah I think this will probably be our best line-up this season as 4 of those players can kick multiple goals (versus only two atm). I don't think we can afford to take Fyfe out of the middle as a permanent forward - our midfield is so much more dominant with his presence in there - we just didn't capitalise on it last week. Our forward line's scoreboard impact is pretty bleak atm but conversely we probably have the best goal scoring midfield we've ever had. Of all our mids (minus Bennell and Fyfe) I think Balic is the most suited to a half forward role so I hope he secures a spot in the B22 this season but we'd rotate a few players through during a game (hopefully Balic will get some time as part of the inside mid rotation as well). I think we also need a 7th forward in the mix (and a tall one). For now it's Kersten and I agree with the coaches that he needs more chances - he's no superstar but he's better than he's shown so far (would have been very useful to still have Yarran though). I think longer term we still need a real primary tall KPF goal scoring threat - and would be reserving our first rounder this year to draft one (maybe Jarrod Brander/Noah Balta/Callum Coleman-Jones?) as I probably can't see one on our list currently and doubt we'll be able to trade one in (as much as I rate him, I don't think Mitch McGovern is it either). Also not sure what the plan is post Ballas, assume a small forward is another priority come this year's draft.

It's a work in progress and the current outlook is a bit grim but I think later in the season when we have Bennell, Ballas, Apeness all back from injury, Balic in the mix, and hopefully Taberner showing more consistency it'll look a bit better. Be interesting if they stick with Cox as a forward, think he is a better CHB personally but it's worth the experiment. Surprised Logue isn't seen as a potential forward also.

 

[Freomaniac]

oh yeah, and if it wasn't clear, we need to draft more forwards. a lot more. Could do worse than a couple of mature-agers dominating state leagues as rookie options ,for a start

Only 2 guys that are still untested is brennan cox and Luke Strnadica.

Got this feeling Cox will get a debut game for freo late this season spending 1 half up forward and one half down back.

 

[Dump Truck]

I would love the coaching staff to tell Strnadica that if he kicks 30+ goals by the mid season break he'll line up for Freo and watch him tear opponents apart to achieve that. I reckon Kersten needs a few more games and Tabs should try and be leading the WAFL goal scoring before another call up, make him want and earn that spot then fight like a dog to keep it. We're all still hoping Apeness comes good but my faith in him is fading not because of talent but because of injuries.

Balic should definitely be given game time. As his buddy I wanted him in round 1 but unfortunately it wasn't to be. I want everyone to see what I see in him when he eventually dominates. Freo could even have ice-hockey style roaming HFF teamss of Balic/Blakely and Bennell/Fyfe Langdon/D.Pearce.

 

[meesy]

A lot is spoken about tall forwards making space for each other. Kersten, McCarthy and Taberner cant make leads if there's about 10 or so mids clogging the F50. That happened on the weekend. I was sitting right down the city end in front of goals for most of the game and their was just too much congestion tbh. However, the bulldogs showed last year that the long bomb can work if your smalls are front and centre and can kick around the corner. Walters can do this but Geelong put a lot of work into him. I'm pretty sure crozier is good at this, and oddly Suban sometimes which I think is why he was trialled there.

We were trying to add bulldog elements to our game but our skills are so deplorable that most of the time the handballs went to player's feet. It's that two seconds to pick up the ball that kills us. On the Geelong board there was some comment that Ross might be overcoaching our young players - players that have been in the system for a while seem to pick up his game plan quite well, but new players are caught between finding their feet on the biggest stage AND playing to ross' overly cerebral system. There was is no better example than Weller at the moment. His kicking is getting worse and worse each week (1st quarter OOB OTF for an example). His natural game is in the F50 (4 goals rising nom anyone?) so it's frustrating to hear they see him as a defender. Ross came in at 2011, the same year as Croz, Sheridan, Neale and Sutty walked through the door. I don't think it's a coindence that Neale, the ball magnet, has really come on under Ross while the more attacking players have become ghosts of their U18 abilities.

Anyway my worry is if these players can regain their instinctive nous or they become 2-bit players for the rest of their careers. There has been heaps of comment about how Bevridge re-innovated the dogs and I believe as our list becomes younger we need some fresh insight and strategy in order to make our attack a lot stronger. I don't think Ross has completely eroded the players natural ability but hearing guys like Picken say they re-gained their ability/confidence after a new coach came in does make me wonder. Kinda ironically what happened to us when Lyon first came to the club.

I know this is only tangentially related to discussion on the F50 but tbh to reinvent the forward line is to completely reinvent the strategy and we honestly need a new perspective (ie. coach) to do so.

 

[george2]

Its a shame Yarran couldn't get his s**t together. our forward line would have looked so much more dangerous with him in it this year

 

[Big Animal]

There's so much blah blah Tabs will make it, blah blah blah tabs will never make it in these threads. Why? Well in my opinion it's because he really hasn't been given a decent chance for us to know for sure either way. From memory he's only had one or two games minus Pav and he did well in at least one. How could any tall forward bar Pav perform well in our forward line the past couple of years. The ball either went straight to pav regardless of the two or three guys hanging off him, or it came in after scraping the ozone layer. Tabs got a stack of contested marks up the wings. The boy has shown he can run, lead and mark.

I know it's a novel idea but how about give Tabs (for Griffen) a few games straight and actually see how he goes minus Pav, and with the Hills and Langdon delivering into the forward line. Then we can say, yep he sux, let him go, or hey, this guy can actually lead and mark, kick fairly straight at goal, and run his opponent off their feet and give McCarthy a smaller, weaker defender - keep him in.

 

[meima]

I am all for Tab replacing Griff. As much as Sandi is dominated ruckmen , he does nothing else and predictable when he get the ball ( handball). If freo don't learn how to play without Sandi , freo will not go far in this rebuild. Is well document no Sandi no freo , having Sandi freo is still beatable. Time to shift Sandi more time playing forward to learn how to mark the ball and score goal .

 

[PurpleEyes]

Statistically, Freo in 2016 had big problems scoring, most notably reflected by their lack of inside 50s and the poor conversion rate of scoring goals once inside 50 (1000 inside 50s / 227 Goals = 4.40 i50s per goal, lower is better, Adelaide was 3.51 for 2016). Now it's worth noting that the Western Bulldogs had a similarly poor conversion rate of scoring goals given their number of inside 50s (1423 inside 50s / 324 Goals = 4.39 i50s per goal), BUT, they had the highest inside 50 team differential numbers (ie. Total Team i50s For - Against) by some margin (168, 2nd ranked was GWS with 104, Freo with 19).
So, without an efficient forward line, the Bulldogs were still good enough to win the premiership due to their strong midfield producing good inside 50 numbers. That is, get the ball inside your forward 50 enough times and you will eventually score even if your forwards are not the best.

Therefore, Fyfe is too important as a midfielder to become a permanent forward. It would be a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. That is, Freo need Fyfe to keep the midfield engine room producing much needed inside 50s. With Sandilands and Fyfe, Freo will vastly improve those numbers, as was evident on the weekend against Geelong when Freo won the HitOuts, won the Clearances and the i50s. Unfortunately, once again, Freo's scoring goals per inside 50 was shocking (51 i50s / 10 Goals = 5.1 i50s per goal) ... in contrast Geelong's was 2.39 (43 i50s / 18 Goals) which is exceptional, courtesy of Freo's poor defense and turnovers.

It is only fair to point out that the teams with the typically best i50s per goal ratios are also those with the quality forwards. That is Adelaide, GWS & West Coast. Given Freo currently just don't have the forwards that those teams are blessed with, we need to at least ensure that our midfield is working as well as possible and for our defenders to not give up easy goals through turnovers.