Our Forward Line

[DJ75]

My Ideal forward line:

Callinan Tippett Walker
Knights McKernan Porplyzia

That is one Dangerous forward line! Throw in rotations of:

Porplyzia, Thompson, Vince, Dangerfield in the HFF (roamer)
Callinan,Porplyzia and Dangerfield across FP
Knights, McKernan, Walker and Henderson to rotate the FP, High Half forward, wing positions (McKernan to pinch hit in ruck)

Might be a bit slow at times, but good delivery can compensate for that!

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

The main motivation in going with a tweener 2nd ruck seems to be that Collingwood won the premiership by doing this, so everyone should be copying them in 2011. Collingwood's decision to play Brown in this role was not driven by any desire for extra flexibility - it was driven by the incompetence of their ruck options (other than Jolly).

We're not even close to being handicapped the way they were with Wood & Fraser. I don't see the point in conceding 1/3 of the ruck contests if you don't have to.

Moran offers significant flexibility and runs like a midfielder (sometimes). Not only that, but he's a genuine ruck height and unlike Maric he can actually jump.

Vader

for one instance Im not saying hey Collingwood did it so lets do it

as stated in other threads I believe that we started to see the ruck role reshap itself in 2009 when Patty Ryder was forced to play as a ruckman and when Hille returned in 2010 the Bombers had found themselves a different type of ruckman

in 2010 other sides moved down this path with players like L Brown, T Hawkins and Kepler Bradley all playing a more mobile 2nd ruck role for their teams, however with Collingwood winning the flag the L Brown role seems to get the most attention....

now with the interchange rule I can see other clubs moving in this direction and I would not be suprised to see players like Roughead (Hawks), Roughead (WB), Stanley (Saints - when not suspended) and SMACK (Adelaide) playing that more mobile 2nd ruck role.

again IMO those clubs that may consider playing two full size rucks will be those teams like Brisbane who have a player like Mitch Clark who is just as good up forward as he is in the ruck, unfortunately for us Jacobs and Maric can probably pitch hit forward however I believe if need Clark could play as a perm forward

I could be wrong but for me the landscape has changed and playing 2 x full size rucks is a massive risk

 

[beartoo]

Craig said today that playing McKernan, Walker and Tippett in the same side would be a rare event. If McKernan continues to impress in the MMC, I think he is a lock for round 1.
He has the ability to do what neither Tip nor Walker do--that is to take a genuine contested pack mark. It is rare to see Tippett get both feet off the ground or to judge a pack mark well--most of his contested marks are after one-on-one wrestles with smaller opponents. Walker too often doesn't go at all when he should. McKernan's efforts on Friday were great big man marks, and he did it in a very tricky wind.
Speaking of the wind, I think any player out there including Walker could be forgiven for missing goals. Roll on Adelaide Oval and let's get away from the curse of the sea winds.

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

Craig said today that playing McKernan, Walker and Tippett in the same side would be a rare event. If McKernan continues to impress in the MMC, I think he is a lock for round 1.
He has the ability to do what neither Tip nor Walker do--that is to take a genuine contested pack mark. It is rare to see Tippett get both feet off the ground or to judge a pack mark well--most of his contested marks are after one-on-one wrestles with smaller opponents. Walker too often doesn't go at all when he should. McKernan's efforts on Friday were great big man marks, and he did it in a very tricky wind.
Speaking of the wind, I think any player out there including Walker could be forgiven for missing goals. Roll on Adelaide Oval and let's get away from the curse of the sea winds.

in the same side or same forward line, there is a difference

I thought Craigy said up forward

 

[Vader]

Even if it were so (and I don't agree that it is), why would we not go with Moran as our 2nd ruckman? He offers the same mobility & flexibility as McKernan, except that he's a better ruckman.

I saw no evidence last Friday that the club intends to use McKernan as the 2nd ruckman. None. I see it as an option which we'll pursue only if our preferred options turn out to be failures.

It's worth noting that those other "mobile 2nd ruckmen" also belong to teams with just 1 real ruck option, just like Collingwood.

 

[Bovo]

Craig said today that playing McKernan, Walker and Tippett in the same side would be a rare event. If McKernan continues to impress in the MMC, I think he is a lock for round 1.
He has the ability to do what neither Tip nor Walker do--that is to take a genuine contested pack mark. It is rare to see Tippett get both feet off the ground or to judge a pack mark well--most of his contested marks are after one-on-one wrestles with smaller opponents. Walker too often doesn't go at all when he should. McKernan's efforts on Friday were great big man marks, and he did it in a very tricky wind.
Speaking of the wind, I think any player out there including Walker could be forgiven for missing goals. Roll on Adelaide Oval and let's get away from the curse of the sea winds.

I would rate Tippet as having the best contested grabs of all our tall forwards. His faults are kicking for goal. Look I understand the excitement about McKernan, but to suddenly say he is better than Tips or Walker right now....you have rocks in your head. Can we have 3 tall forwards? If I recall we did it in 2005/2006 (Sarg, McGreggor, and Hentschel) so for Craig to say he won't do it, does not actually mean he won't. What he will want is the perfect balance of talls and smalls. You all forget very quickly how good Hendo was last year also. That kid is a natural athlete. What we have is a very young group still learning their craft and still learning how to play along side each other. This will take time. The right Combo may be tricky, but I can say one thing....

We have the pleasure of investing in so many potentially exciting talls.

 

[beartoo]

I would rate Tippet as having the best contested grabs of all our tall forwards.... We have the pleasure of investing in so many potentially exciting talls.

We will have to disagree about that, because I believe that Tip lacks the ability to properly judge the flight of the ball and position himself in a pack. Good big forwards take good contested pack marks and occasional screamers. Nick Gill was a far better pack mark than Tippett.
I am not saying that Tippett doesn't have other attributes that are valuable to the side.
Early days for McKernan, but his performance on Friday was the most exciting thing about the games, apart from flogging the Poower.
I do agree absolutely with your final statement.

 

[lunacy]

Craig said today that playing McKernan, Walker and Tippett in the same side would be a rare event. If McKernan continues to impress in the MMC, I think he is a lock for round 1.
He has the ability to do what neither Tip nor Walker do--that is to take a genuine contested pack mark. It is rare to see Tippett get both feet off the ground or to judge a pack mark well--most of his contested marks are after one-on-one wrestles with smaller opponents. Walker too often doesn't go at all when he should. McKernan's efforts on Friday were great big man marks, and he did it in a very tricky wind.
Speaking of the wind, I think any player out there including Walker could be forgiven for missing goals. Roll on Adelaide Oval and let's get away from the curse of the sea winds.

I thought he said wouldn't be permanently in the same forward line not same time altogether. If Mckernan is 2nd ruck it can be done.

 

[beartoo]

I thought he said wouldn't be permanently in the same forward line not same time altogether. If Mckernan is 2nd ruck it can be done.

Quite right, that could happen and I did misread what Craig said.
Having said that, I don't think Mckernan will fill the 2nd ruck spot. I don't think we will have a 2nd ruck in our side. With players like Tippett,McKernan and Stevens around we will use a runner rather than a second ruckman as interchange.

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

Even if it were so (and I don't agree that it is), why would we not go with Moran as our 2nd ruckman? He offers the same mobility & flexibility as McKernan, except that he's a better ruckman.

I saw no evidence last Friday that the club intends to use McKernan as the 2nd ruckman. None. I see it as an option which we'll pursue only if our preferred options turn out to be failures.

It's worth noting that those other "mobile 2nd ruckmen" also belong to teams with just 1 real ruck option, just like Collingwood.

Collingwood had Fraser missing out whilst Geelong had Blake and West playing in the magoo's

I know the quality can be questioned however they all are genuine ruckmen

 

[Allefgib]

We will have to disagree about that, because I believe that Tip lacks the ability to properly judge the flight of the ball and position himself in a pack. Good big forwards take good contested pack marks and occasional screamers. Nick Gill was a far better pack mark than Tippett.
I am not saying that Tippett doesn't have other attributes that are valuable to the side.
Early days for McKernan, but his performance on Friday was the most exciting thing about the games, apart from flogging the Poower.
I do agree absolutely with your final statement.

It's how we use Tippett and hwo the opposition plays him that makes you say this.

He has taken some absolute pearlers (especially at Etihad) of pack marks.

Not much wrong with his judgement IMO given he can beat 2 players or even great contested defenders like Lake/Scarlett one out with ease.

THe problem is he has that ability so they clog him up and the way we come into the forward line makes it easier for sides to hang 3 off him.

Same would go for Smack if we played to him the same way. He'd probably fare worse given he doesn't have Tips size or ability to crash and smash the ball on the ground and in the air.


The key to our forwardline is all about how we structure and enter. The players will sort themselves out around that.

For mine I'd almost try Smack/Walker and Tips swinging back through the Ruck...

 

[Vader]

Collingwood had Fraser missing out whilst Geelong had Blake and West playing in the magoo's

I know the quality can be questioned however they all are genuine ruckmen

That's my whole point. While their 2nd ruck option were genuine ruckmen, they were absolute rubbish. This is why they judged that they had less to lose by sacrificing 30% of the ruck contests and playing an extra mobile player.

Our 2nd ruck options aren't rubbish and there is no pressing reason for us to go down this path as a result.

 

[Brenton Davy]

My Ideal forward line:

Callinan Tippett Walker
Knights McKernan Porplyzia

That is one Dangerous forward line! Throw in rotations of:

Porplyzia, Thompson, Vince, Dangerfield in the HFF (roamer)
Callinan,Porplyzia and Dangerfield across FP
Knights, McKernan, Walker and Henderson to rotate the FP, High Half forward, wing positions (McKernan to pinch hit in ruck)

Might be a bit slow at times, but good delivery can compensate for that!

Took the words right out of my mouth.

However, my take on the rotations would be to rotate SMACK and Tippett through FF and CHF/Ruck. This would free Tippett up from many of the 1 on 2 contests he frequently has to deal with, while forcing opposition coaches to not only focus on Tippett, but on SMACK as well.

CAVEAT:

That SMACK continues to show the form he did on Friday night.

 

[DJ75]

Following on from my previous post, the actual line up would be:

Walker Tippett


Callinan
Knights McKernan


Knights and Mck as High forwards, Tipp and Walker as deep forwards. Callinan crumbing at feet of deep forwards.

Tipp and Tex to run screens for each other. The 6th forward (roamer) goes on ball (as we tend to do).

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Even if it were so (and I don't agree that it is), why would we not go with Moran as our 2nd ruckman? He offers the same mobility & flexibility as McKernan, except that he's a better ruckman.

I saw no evidence last Friday that the club intends to use McKernan as the 2nd ruckman. None. I see it as an option which we'll pursue only if our preferred options turn out to be failures.

It's worth noting that those other "mobile 2nd ruckmen" also belong to teams with just 1 real ruck option, just like Collingwood.

Exactly.

If our 2nd ruck was a dinosaur then fair enough, might be better to look for other options.

However, Moran is a legitimate ruck who, if the rest of the league does go for the tweener 2R, should give us a significant rucking advantage when up against the little guys (note the Port match).

Importantly, he can play around the ground. 10 possessions, 5 marks in probably little over a quarter of 'normal' playing time.

Hopefully McKernan can get some ruck time in the coming weeks so he can stake his claim.

Maybe the club would even go for a Moran/McKernan combo over a Jacobs/Moran one?!


Re the forward line...I'd like to see Hendo given an opportunity up on the wing to bolster the 'outside mid' class given that Knights is back for the HFF lead up role. Callinan will be required given the usual crap forward entries and the subsequent Tippett vs 3 defenders scenario.

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

That's my whole point. While their 2nd ruck option were genuine ruckmen, they were absolute rubbish. This is why they judged that they had less to lose by sacrificing 30% of the ruck contests and playing an extra mobile player.

Our 2nd ruck options aren't rubbish and there is no pressing reason for us to go down this path as a result.

agree, our 2nd ruck options aren't rubbish however and this might upset a few folk because I too love the fact that Maric bleeds red, blue and yellow however as a genuine ruckman I would assess Maric as solid at best.

I have watch Maric very closely for some time now and my concern is that Maric does not jump at the ruck contests, he focuses on positioning, it's like he has cement in his boots, I would like to see him jump more into other ruckmen

with that said I do not believe that we lose too much with the SMACK option

 

[Vader]

The ruck is the one area where NC has consistently been open to experimentation and has always picked players on form. None of our ruckmen have had a golden pass since Biglands & Clarke departed the scene.

If Jacobs & Moran prove to be better ruckmen than Maric, then so be it. We go with the best and most in-form players available. If Maric can justify selection ahead of one of them (noting that Jacobs doesn't have Moran's mobility) then so be it. Either way, barring injury, these 3 players will determine our main ruck combination this season. I just have no idea which 1 of the 3 will be unlucky to miss out.

 

[lunacy]

Even if it were so (and I don't agree that it is), why would we not go with Moran as our 2nd ruckman? He offers the same mobility & flexibility as McKernan, except that he's a better ruckman.

I saw no evidence last Friday that the club intends to use McKernan as the 2nd ruckman. None. I see it as an option which we'll pursue only if our preferred options turn out to be failures.

It's worth noting that those other "mobile 2nd ruckmen" also belong to teams with just 1 real ruck option, just like Collingwood.

Because Vader Mckernan is a much much better forward than Moran. The 2nd ruck can't play much game time in the ruck otherwise there will be one ruckman permanently on the bench. For example if 1st ruck plays 60% game time in ruck and 40% on bench, the 2nd ruck would play a max 40% game time in ruck. Is it worth playing a recognised ruckman just for 40% game time? What does he do for the other 60%? Play forward? Well choose the better forward. I don't support the 2nd ruck playing anywhere other than forward. He's wasted on bench and only leaves 2 rotations on bench. I don;t support 2nd ruck playing game time in defence because I think the back 6 should be settled. I don't agree with playing 2nd ruck on wing or anything ridiculous even if they do accumulate a few cheap possessions. They'll never be as damaging or effective as a regulation midfielder/wingman unless they are an athletic beast (like Natanui) with the skills of Dean Cox. We dont have any ruckman like that. IMO 2nd ruck plays forward/ruck.

Moran > Mckernan in ruck
McKernan >>> Moran as forward.

IMO the there's a greater difference in their forward ability than their rucking ability.

I'd rather 1st ruck take 70% time on ground and 2nd ruck relieve in ruck for 30% and play 50% forward. Of that 50% up forward approx 30% will still only be 2 tall forwards as Tippett and Walker will possibly have 15% time on bench each.

 

[Vader]

A couple of things:

• The club seem quite happy to go with 2 KPP forwards.
• They have shown no indications at all of playing McKernan in the ruck.
• Moran is a significantly better ruckman than McKernan, probably more-so than McKernan's edge in the forward line.
• Moran is just as mobile, probably more-so, than McKernan.

All indications are that the ruck combination will be either Jacobs/Moran or Maric/Moran. The KPP forward line will contain 2 of Tippett, Walker & McKernan - with Tippett almost certain to retain his position. Whether it's Tippett/Walker or Tippett/McKernan will be determined by their respective MMC performances - but so far McKernan has his foot in the door.

I wonder how the likes of Carl & co will cope with Walker being dropped, only to be replaced by another youngster in McKernan? Both players have a great deal of talent, which should be fostered at the highest level. I look forward to these posters going into conniptions and contradictory arguments as they seek to justify why Walker should be played despite his (compared to McKernan) relatively poor form.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

I wonder how the likes of Carl & co will cope with Walker being dropped, only to be replaced by another youngster in McKernan? Both players have a great deal of talent, which should be fostered at the highest level. I look forward to these posters going into conniptions and contradictory arguments as they seek to justify why Walker should be played despite his (compared to McKernan) relatively poor form.

Depending on the reason, his form leading up to and the form of the other player.

If he deserves to be dropped and its even across the board (unlike last time), fair enough but if he's kicked goals and then one bad game...bam...dropped, I will be pissed off or it will simply vindicate his potential contract status.

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

We will have to disagree about that, because I believe that Tip lacks the ability to properly judge the flight of the ball and position himself in a pack. Good big forwards take good contested pack marks and occasional screamers. Nick Gill was a far better pack mark than Tippett.
I am not saying that Tippett doesn't have other attributes that are valuable to the side.
Early days for McKernan, but his performance on Friday was the most exciting thing about the games, apart from flogging the Poower.
I do agree absolutely with your final statement.

beartoo,

not sure on the Tippett that you have been watching however

In 2010 "Big Kurt" took the most contested mark inside forward 50 not just for the crows but for the entire comp, yes the entire comp and daylight was 2nd

his strength and ability to hold his position in a pack and take the ball at the highest point is outstanding and is reflected in Kurt taking the most contested marks in the forward 50m in the comp, even more than J Brown

I'm speachless

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Moran > Mckernan in ruck
McKernan >>> Moran as forward.

IMO the there's a greater difference in their forward ability than their rucking ability.

I agree with the orientation of those arrows but not their quantity!

Potentially you may be right in the future, however McKernan hasn't proven those comparisons at AFL level yet.

I agree McKernan is highly likely to be the better forward (based on SANFL and one NAB cup round) but don't forget Moran has proven to pinch hit well up forward in an AFL match. McKernan's consistency up forward is yet to be seen at any level despite the obvious raw potential.

Also, McKernan has proven nothing in ruck at AFL level. Hasn't had games where he has matched Jolly and McIntosh as Moran has done. I'd suggest the current margin between them as ruckman is wider than you intimate. Again, the future may show McKernan narrows the gap quickly...who knows? I just hope McKernan is given a decent run as a 2R in the NAB so he has the opportunity to press his claim. Also hope Moran (and the other rucks) can rest up forward in the NAB to see what they can offer down there as well.

 

[lunacy]

A couple of things:

• The club seem quite happy to go with 2 KPP forwards.
• They have shown no indications at all of playing McKernan in the ruck.
• Moran is a significantly better ruckman than McKernan, probably more-so than McKernan's edge in the forward line.
• Moran is just as mobile, probably more-so, than McKernan.

All indications are that the ruck combination will be either Jacobs/Moran or Maric/Moran. The KPP forward line will contain 2 of Tippett, Walker & McKernan - with Tippett almost certain to retain his position. Whether it's Tippett/Walker or Tippett/McKernan will be determined by their respective MMC performances - but so far McKernan has his foot in the door.

I wonder how the likes of Carl & co will cope with Walker being dropped, only to be replaced by another youngster in McKernan? Both players have a great deal of talent, which should be fostered at the highest level. I look forward to these posters going into conniptions and contradictory arguments as they seek to justify why Walker should be played despite his (compared to McKernan) relatively poor form.

Respectfully, I 100% disagree with 3 of your 4 dot points. IMO they didnt play Mckernan in ruck on the weekend or the internal trial because they have 3 recognised ruckman fighting for 1st ruck spot. They are obviously very evenly poised and want to use these matches to get a better indication. You live in Canberra and understandably couldn't attend crows training, but Mckernan was used in the ruck a lot at training sessions. I actually reckon they've already decided on Mckernan as 2nd ruck .

Also Tippett didnt play in the 1st game and we needed another KPF. Mckernan was the logical choice, especially if he is gonna play forward/ruck.

The difference between their rucking ability is no where near the difference in forward ability. I doubt you would have seen much of Mckernan. His ruck work is pretty good. Yes Moran's ruck work is a bit better, we're not comparing Sandilands and Mckernan. Don't get me wrong I think Moran is a good ruck option, but Mckernan's rucking ability is underestimated.

There is no chance Moran is more than Mckernan. Moran is certainly quick in a straight line, but Mckernan's agility (which is the most accurate test of mobility) is extraordinary. he recorded top 8 I think for agility in his draft camp and 2nd in vertical leap. Btw his speed is pretty damn good as well.

I guess it all comes down to which attribute/position carries more weight for the 2nd ruck spot - rucking ability or forward ability. For mine only minimal game time will/can be given to ruck duties for the 2011 version 2nd ruck. So much responsibility will go to 1st ruck. He needs to play 70% game time. 30% ruck time for 2nd ruck. A servicable ruckman who is a good KPF carries more weight imo than a recognised ruckman who can provide a contest up forward. Mckernan, Tippett, Walker looks much better than Tippett, Walker, Moran/Jacobs/Maric.

 

[Mad Fan of AFL]

Stevens used as a ruck was used out of necessity. This was when we basically had only maric and whoever off the ground. This year is different. Why use him when we we would have Jacobs, Moran and Mckernan? (doesn't matter who). Stevens is such a horrible choice in ruck, even as a pinch hitter, i don't care. Lack of physical size would make him lose just about every ruck contest, no matter if on a rare ocassion, cannot be risked even for a short amount of time. Rather see Tippett ruck and have Mckernan and Walker in the forward line if that occurred.

 

[KingJames23]

It surprises me that so many name smack in their side. Plays a good TRIAL match and everyone wants to name him starting CHF. Needs to show a lot more, starting by some consistency for the remainder of the preseason, both in training form and any remaining nab or trial games we have left.

What would you all say if he plays in the nab cup in 2 weeks and fails to get a kick and gets completely dominated? Will you swap him with the next 'man of the moment'?