Our Future Midfield

[The Royal Sampler]

The Saints' mids didn't beat us through rotations last night, they beat us (despite rotations) by just being plain better than us. Let's talk about our mids, what we have and what we lack, and how to get to the required level.

Present Midfield
Swan
O'Bree
Pendlebury
Ball
Wellingham
Beams

Pinch-hitters
Thomas
Didak
Davis
Johnson
Sidebottom
Buckley (he's already been named an emergency and isn't even fit, it's going to happen soon)
McCarthy

Future Midfield
Swan
Pendlebury
Ball
Wellingham
Beams
McCarthy

Pinch-hitters
Thomas
Didak
Davis
Sidebottom
Sinclair
Buckley

Now, you might feel differently and think that Sidebottom can play inside mid, or that Thomas might evolve the tank, or that Shaw might move into the midfield, or that after one consecutive senior game against a team who won 20+ games last season that McCarthy is rubbish and should be fired from a cannon into the sun. That's fine. I'm just trying to generate some constructive discussion. My suspicion is that the AFL won't be able to keep themselves from changing the rules again, despite the lack of supporting evidence, and cap interchange rotations which will mean a nucleus of quality mids will be more important than even depth across the board.

What I'm thinking here is that we are currently pretty close to our future midfield. Swan, Wellingham and McCarthy are seriously quick. Beams and Pendlebury are mediocre for pace. Ball is pretty plod-squad. Not a terrible mix. Pendlebury, Wellingham, Beams and McCarthy are all pretty good by foot, Swan a little less so but makes good decisions and puts it in the right areas, and Ball should handball at every opportunity.

What are we really lacking from this group? Do we simply need more numbers of full-time mids? More pace? More footskills? More inside players, or more outside?

I would perhaps say we need a bit more outside, run and carry types, and this is where a Sinclair would be a great addition if he makes the grade. Ditto any of Hunter/Francis/Rounds who are all very quick and at least neat kicks.

The main thing we're going to need to do, while we have so many kids in our starting midfield... is get games into them. Until each of them has played at least 50 games, we're going to get found out occasionally by the best sides.

 

[Zahki]

Good thread. I'm pretty happy with the midfield, got some good players rotating through there. Of course Swan is a star, Pendlebury should become one of the AFLs elite this year, Beams has shown enough in his first year to be considered best 22, Sidebottom shows real glimpses of creativity and skill and Wellingham, I've been really impressed with him so far this year despite not being a believer last year.

So I think we're well placed, McCarthy had a bad game but we know he can be much better than that. He just needs to string a few games together in the seniors, get used to the pace and he should stay there.

The big worry is O'Bree, he's been pretty meh so far, I think Pendles is a better inside player and with him and Ball thats two players with serious question marks above their heads about their disposal.

But with the youth and potential we've got lined up for the midfield I reckon the club is well placed for the next few years. Now to fix up that old rusty forward line...

 

[TradeDraft]

I would not have Sidebottom as a Pinch Hitter I have him in the Future Midfield ahead of McCarthy

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I thought you'd say that, and it's not that I disagree with you... I just have concerns about his ability to become a centre-square midfielder. At AFL level he seems better suited as an outside linking-type player... I really hope he can develop the contested-ball winning aspect of his game.

 

[Spoony]

I agree on Sidey no pinch hitter, really rate him, has extremly good evasive skill that can only get better, can beat 2 opposition players on a realtivily regular basis. Is a big game player and will always step up in finals, I personaly rate him at the moment the seacond best out of all collingwoods mids who have played less than 50 games. Although some concern over his ability to play as a good outside player.

O'bree is a major worry though, to slow, bad ball use, would give him a few more game sot see with having ball and him in the side works, but at the moment I think he has to go. Collingwood need to go back to playing stopages like they used to but with ball instead of o'bree, Pendulbury is far more effective plying inside than he is playing a more outside role.

 

[TradeDraft]

I thought you'd say that, and it's not that I disagree with you... I just have concerns about his ability to become a centre-square midfielder. At AFL level he seems better suited as an outside linking-type player... I really hope he can develop the contested-ball winning aspect of his game.

Think we will find out More when he gets a Bigger Body and as above poster says his Evasive Skills are Fantastic and has some good Tricks.

Just hope with getting Stronger he can add Kicking Pentration

 

[joefootylover]

In my view we beat or broke even in the midfield against StKilda.
Ball had 28 touches,
Swan had 26,
Wellers the same,
Didak, playing off a wing, had 21,
Sidebottom had 20.

Dal Santo had 27,
Hayes had 27,
Goddard had 25,
Montagna had 25,
and Jones had 21.


Contrast that to the possesion rate of thier running backs versus our forwards;

Gilbert 32,
Gram 29,
Baker 28,
and
Fisher 28 where thier top four posession getters, and along with Ball at equal third, the top 4 posession winners on the ground.

Medhurst (Gilberts opponent) had 12 touches,
Davis (Baker?) had 8,
McCarthy had 11.

Ultimately thier much higer posession rate in thier backline and running forward cost us the game. we lacked forward pressure, and most importantly lacked scoreboard pressure, its much harder for a defender to risk running off when his side is behind on the scoreboard.

I am happy to give it time, our forward structuer will improve as the year progresesses and Fraser, Cloke and Anthony all find full fitness, all had surgery in the off season remember.

 

[joefootylover]

As for our midfield Swan, Pendles, Beams and Wellingham have the potential to be 4 frontline A-grade mids. Sidebottom, McCarthy, Thomas, Didak, Davis, all provide something and are versatile enough for other roles on the ground too.

Of the guys we've yet to see much of at AFL level McCarthy can play much better footy than we've seen, Sinclair looked genuinely good in the preseason, not just good for a teenager, but genuinely good, sort of like a taller Barham that could kick.

Speaking of Barham, geez he is fast and ferocious, if he can manage to improve his kicking, and given he has only been playing serious footy for about 3 years it's certatintly still possible, he could be a real weapon.

And there are others too of course. Exciting times.

 

[Jedi01]

Simply we are lacking that midfielder who has it all. Pace/hard ball gets/disposal etc, eg a Ablett/Judd/Hayes/Hodge. Obv they are not easy to find though.

Can't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[Bay Pie]

I thought you'd say that, and it's not that I disagree with you... I just have concerns about his ability to become a centre-square midfielder. At AFL level he seems better suited as an outside linking-type player... I really hope he can develop the contested-ball winning aspect of his game.

It was said, by Matthew Knights I believe, before the 2008 draft, that Sidey has Jimmy Bartel written all over him. I believe he will be that type of player.

Once he gains some size, he'll do far beter in the contested ball stakes. He's winning a few, but many through his evasion and footy smarts, but as he develops physically he'll be able to go body on body as he has excellent balance.

 

[conodie05]

Dayne Beams will one day win a Brownlow. That is my prediction. Probably doesn't add much to this thread but I've been bursting to say it.

 

[Zahki]

Simply we are lacking that midfielder who has it all. Pace/hard ball gets/disposal etc, eg a Ablett/Judd/Hayes/Hodge. Obv they are not easy to find though.

Can't see that changing anytime soon.

Swan? He seems to fit the bill.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

It was said, by Matthew Knights I believe, before the 2008 draft, that Sidey has Jimmy Bartel written all over him. I believe he will be that type of player.

Once he gains some size, he'll do far beter in the contested ball stakes. He's winning a few, but many through his evasion and footy smarts, but as he develops physically he'll be able to go body on body as he has excellent balance.

I think he's a more naturally outside player than Bartel, who is a brilliant inside mid who can also play wing at times. Bartel has the fantastic core strength of an Ablett or Hayes, or for us, Swan or even O'Brien off half-back, which makes them very hard to tackle. Rusty has plenty of tricks, but it remains to be seen if he can develop the strength to become a centre-square mid.

 

[Quicky]

Even so having quality outside mids is still an important part of a well rounded midfield. Actually thats an area we probably lack at the moment. I think Sidebottom will be an important part of our midfield going forward.

I see our future midfield as this:

Inside:
Pendlebury
Ball
Beams

All rounders:
Swan
Wellingham
McCarthy
Sidebottom

Outside:
Didak
Davis
Thomas
Blight

Depth:
Sinclair
Buckley
Macaffer

(there are others i'm less confident in)

Didak and Davis are concerning given their ages and importance to the forward line as well. That and they have both struggled at times in important games.

But yeah I think our midfield is looking strong. I guess the point is are they as strong as the other (future) midfields out there?? I think we also lack that real elite player (still) that other teams have. Do we need one??

 

[mdc]

I agree with the Samplemeister re: Sidebottom, and the Bartel comparison confuses the bejesus out of me.

The way I see it:

Genuine midfielders:

Swan (Current: 9, Potential: 9)
Pendlebury (Current: 8.5, Potential: 9.5)
Beams (Current: 7, Potential: 9)
Ball (Current: 7, Potential: 7)

Probable midfielders:

Wellingham (Current: 6, Potential: 8)
Macaffer (Current: 6, Potential: 8.5)

Rotation midfielders:

Sidebottom (Current: 6, Potential: 7.5)
Thomas (Current: 6.5, Potential: 7)

Occasional midfielders:

McCarthy (Current: 5.5, Potential: 6.5)
Didak (Current: 7, Potential: 7)
Davis (Current: 7, Potential: 7)


Haven't seen enough of the new kids to really comment. Should probably mention that the ratings are only looking at their potential as mids - so, for example, Didak would be an 8.5 as a forward, but only a 7 as a mid. Also, I obviously rate Macaffer higher than most, see him as potentially a Burns/Boyd clone.

Looking at the list, it's pretty obvious that of our genuine and probable mids, we are a lot more solid at inside mid than outside. I'm not sure we need a superstar, but it would definitely be handy to have another runner who can break the lines. Wellingham right now is the only one who does it. Swan can do it, but prefers to do it on the wings rather than in the middle. Thomas doesn't have the kicking/vision required to really hurt teams whilst doing it. McCarthy is yet to do it, although he might have the pace. The rest don't have the pace.

Adding someone in the mould of a Winderlich would be super, but it's still a very solid group. The forward-line is of much greater concern, whether now or in the future.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I think Sinclair could Winderlich it.

Also, I was only a few metres from Mr. Scott Burns on Friday night. He was very composed; wish I could say the same. Mind you, that last quarter was met with an air of resignation by both of us, I think.

 

[twaters]

Also, I obviously rate Macaffer higher than most, see him as potentially a Burns/Boyd clone.

Our lack of a dedicated tagger means that we can't release Wellers and Thomas to their intuitive outside line breaking roles. Both are playing tight defensive mid roles. That's good for now, but if released we'd be better off for forward flow.

The only ones on the list who seem up for the tagging job(s) are Caffa, Buckley and Hunter. It may take another season to sort that out and to unleash the more attacking mid options?

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Tristan Francis looks alright as a potential tagger to me.

 

[THATSGOLD]

one thing i've learnt is you can't predict your future side.
no one knew we were going to get ball this time last year.... for all we know we could trade mccarthy etc at the end of the year so your thread is pointless really.

future midfield could look something like this

Vince
ball
kerr
sidebottom
beams

who knows.. get my point.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

LOL, there is such a concept as probability, THATSGOLD.

This week's result against Hawthorn is unknown, does that mean it's pointless talking about it?

 

[The Sqawka]

Wow, I think i must be from mars.

Steele Sidebottom is a genuine midfielder, we need to see this, and develop him as a midfielder, rather than again waste pure talent, whilst creating a small forward (thomas, didak, davis). Alan Didak was recruited as a midfielder, and taken with pick 3 in the overal 2001 Draft. 9 years later, he is only now beginning to become a midfielder dealing with tags etc.

Future Midfield
Swan
Pendlebury
Ball
Beams
Sidebottom
Wellingham


IMO, i think McCarthy, Macaffer, Cook, Blight, etc will never ever be a part of a likely premiership team. Their scope for improvement seems limited, and i dont believe they will step up - ex: Stanely

We are great at creating a competitive team, and getting the most out of players, but for some reason we are unable to develop champions. I don't think the issue is the pure ability of our draft choices, i believe it is more in our development of them.

Thoughts?

 

[PieBeast]

Has everyone forgotten about Josh Thomas? Good skills, fast, gets the hard ball, he'll definitely play a big part in our future midfield.

 

[Zahki]

Hard to tell where Josh Thomas will be fitting into the side without seeing him play some VFL games at least.

 

[Dundalis]

I agree with the Samplemeister re: Sidebottom, and the Bartel comparison confuses the bejesus out of me.

The way I see it:

Genuine midfielders:

Swan (Current: 9, Potential: 9)
Pendlebury (Current: 8.5, Potential: 9.5)
Beams (Current: 7, Potential: 9)
Ball (Current: 7, Potential: 7)

Probable midfielders:

Wellingham (Current: 6, Potential: 8)
Macaffer (Current: 6, Potential: 8.5)

Rotation midfielders:

Sidebottom (Current: 6, Potential: 7.5)
Thomas (Current: 6.5, Potential: 7)

Occasional midfielders:

McCarthy (Current: 5.5, Potential: 6.5)
Didak (Current: 7, Potential: 7)
Davis (Current: 7, Potential: 7)


Haven't seen enough of the new kids to really comment. Should probably mention that the ratings are only looking at their potential as mids - so, for example, Didak would be an 8.5 as a forward, but only a 7 as a mid. Also, I obviously rate Macaffer higher than most, see him as potentially a Burns/Boyd clone.

Looking at the list, it's pretty obvious that of our genuine and probable mids, we are a lot more solid at inside mid than outside. I'm not sure we need a superstar, but it would definitely be handy to have another runner who can break the lines. Wellingham right now is the only one who does it. Swan can do it, but prefers to do it on the wings rather than in the middle. Thomas doesn't have the kicking/vision required to really hurt teams whilst doing it. McCarthy is yet to do it, although he might have the pace. The rest don't have the pace.

Adding someone in the mould of a Winderlich would be super, but it's still a very solid group. The forward-line is of much greater concern, whether now or in the future.

Don't agree with your potential for Wellingham at all. I think he has more natural talent than just about any of our mids. I would give him a 9 or even 9.5 potential, just with less chance of reaching that potential than someone like Pendlebury (although so far this season he's done a good job of getting closer to it). There is no other midfielder in our side that is as good a mark and kick and with as much pace, athleticism, poise under pressure and inside ability as he has. He still has to work on decision making and concentration, but he has more physical and technical skills than any other mid on our list. I've said this for the last 2 years but didn't think he would put it together, happy he is finally starting to do just that.

Interesting about Sidebottom. If he can't make it as midfielder, as far as I'm concerned he really isn't good enough to make it as a flanker or winger. Too slow and not good enough in the air. He needs to make it as a mid IMO. He may end up as a Tarkyn Lockyer utility type I suppose.

 

[Invigoration]

IMO, i think McCarthy, Macaffer, Cook, Blight, etc will never ever be a part of a likely premiership team. Their scope for improvement seems limited, and i dont believe they will step up - ex: Stanely

This deserves a Winty award nomination. Bad call Gary, terrible call.