Our playing list

[Cap]

the going over the top happened after the geelong game

very true

 

[SellarStardom]

Whilst I agree the midfield is lacking some players that can really hurt the opposition, the focus on leg speed is over-rated. The best team in the comp for the past few years, Geelong, doesn't really have leg speed other than Wojenski and Varcoe (who use to play as a forward mostly). BUT what they do have is players who are very skilled in move the ball via hand and foot through the midfield. Importantly, I can only think of 3 players, Mackay, Douglas and Thompson who are in the midfield and have penetrating kicks. Sloane, no, Symes, no, Reily, not anymore. This kills us as we struggle to move the ball quickly to our forwards.

All that being said where we are getting beaten is in contested footy, centre bounces, throw ins and loose balls. Desire, tackling, evasive skills all play a part, along with structures and approach so Viney and Bickley should look out.

Our rucks don't get enough around ground ball, but in terms of our main problem this season, contested ball, they often break even with other rucks, so the problem again is in our contested structure approach

 

[smoovy]

Whilst I agree the midfield is lacking some players that can really hurt the opposition, the focus on leg speed is over-rated. The best team in the comp for the past few years, Geelong, doesn't really have leg speed other than Wojenski and Varcoe (who use to play as a forward mostly). BUT what they do have is players who are very skilled in move the ball via hand and foot through the midfield. Importantly, I can only think of 3 players, Mackay, Douglas and Thompson who are in the midfield and have penetrating kicks. Sloane, no, Symes, no, Reily, not anymore. This kills us as we struggle to move the ball quickly to our forwards.

All that being said where we are getting beaten is in contested footy, centre bounces, throw ins and loose balls. Desire, tackling, evasive skills all play a part, along with structures and approach so Viney and Bickley should look out.

Our rucks don't get enough around ground ball, but in terms of our main problem this season, contested ball, they often break even with other rucks, so the problem again is in our contested structure approach

Vince goes alright.

 

[StonesThrow]

If we dont pick up a Dustin Martin, a Tom Scully and a Stephen Hill in the next draft, I am going to be furious.

Are any of those players in the OP a top 20 draft pick?

You cant expect players drafted so low to be lightning quick, have great skills and have strong bodies. Nor can we expect someone like that in the next draft (with the picks we'll have), unless we get really lucky.

Just have to make the best with what you've got, develop their strengths and play them in the right positions (Petrenko in the backline for example). We seem to be struggling with this of late.

 

[Crow-mo]

Well he would be 23/24 at the end of 2010. Ok so I passed the maths test. What's your point?

that apparently you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink

You can't just make flippant comments about recruiting. You can't just go and get these guys without giving up something. So you think he should have traded away promising youngsters or draft picks?

If you don't think there is a void there caused by Ayres then you yourself are delusional.

whilst I wait for the knock the door from the flippant police, I might point out I have made myself very clear on these subjects many times.

the only revelation presented in bold is that somehow you think giving up something meaningful for what you need is a bit perverse.

Craig's refusal to entertain proper list building and trading has been a disaster, never more so than at the end of 2009.

 

[Kickin_Goals]

Why not just necropost this is the same old same old said so many times in so many threads.

List management is garbage has been for ages. Adelaide is as many rucks and slow players as you can jam into one squad.

 

[amer]

**** off.

We have a top 4 list and it has been pissed away this year by a pack of spuds that the club has refused to move on. The AFC should be absolutely ashamed of itself for allowing the 2010 opportunity to slip away in this fashion, and if they don't make some changes 2011 will play out in exactly the same way.

****ing disgrace.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

But I cant agree with much of the OP. How does a team this so-called slow and 'average skilled', ever beat the best team in the competition?

It must have something going for it.

The last two weeks has shown us that Geelong played very, very badly that night.

As for our list I'm happy with the quality of players we have 25 years old and under and with Rendell at the helm we seem to be bringing in some quality draftees each year now.

It's time to hand the keys over to our new generation. Edwards, Goodwin and Burton are already gone. McLeod, Hentschel and Doughty must go too. Stevens, Rutten and Symes cannot be allowed anywhere near the leadership group.

The fear that Craig and the coaching group seem to have about handing over control must disappear. Talking some oldies into continuing and appointing one of them as skipper again would be devastating. The Big 4 era has now become an anchor, pinning us to our past.

Time to cut the cord. Don't be fearful about what might go wrong. Instead be positive about what can go right.

Time for some risk taking, Neil. The sort of risk taking you constantly remind us in your press conferences that you are demanding from the players. Monkey see monkey do.

 

[lunacy]

We need to see what happens during trade week before we decide on what type of players to take in the draft.
If no weaknesses are solved then I think we should draft the following types of players:
One or two inside midfielders.
One or two outside midfielders.
A ruck man .
A mid sized half back with good skills, pace and has footy smarts.

Agree with your assessment except maybe the last point. It is a glaring weakness/omission at the moment in our current 22 but I think we actually have quite a few of these players on our list, but they havent necessarily come through yet. I think we have addressed it in the last couple of drafts.

Otten 192cm utility (half back/back pocket/midfield) - good skills and very attacking.

Gunston 191cm utility (mid sized forward/back/wing) - great skills an exciting prospect.

Henderson 190cm utility (playing great up forward at moment but has flexibility to play wing and mid sized defender). - lightning quick, pretty good skills, loves to run and carry.

Sam Shaw 191cm utility (same as Otten, half back/back pocket/midfield). - left footer, good skills, very quick.

Whilst Otten and Shaw have been injured and Gunston and Henderson have been applying their trade in SANFL or up forward for crows we haven't been able to see these options. And I agree we have lacked this type of player in defence along with 2 genuine talls (rather than 3 slow talls). But have addressed this position through drafting. I think all 4 will be good players and hopefully between forward line, back line and wing we can fit all or most of them in the team eventually.

I think if anything in defense we need another small quick defender. We have Petrenko and I think he has all the qualities (maybe except great skills) to play this role. But we probably need another one. Certainly not as urgently as we need midfielders, but looking forward we will lose Mcleod who can play as an attacking small defender probably at end of year. Plus Doughty within a year probably and that only leaves Johncock who if gets injured/suspended leaves us pretty short. Plus Johncock want be around for ever. We could probably leave it until rookie draft if we see a player we like or even next years draft but it is another need we have that needs topping up.

 

[lunacy]

I'm from the Craigy school of thought that out and out pace isn't an issue. I think all sides have there 1 or 2 really quick players and 1 or 2 really slow players everyone else is about the same.

What makes you look quick is quickness of ball movement and quickness in decision making. A lot of our players are slow by mind.

In terms of running what is more important is the gut busting runs up and down the ground. What defined us during our good patch last year and which was commented on by a number of commentators was our ability and also willingness to work up and down the ground and get to areas where you can have an influence.

You are right but we probably have too many that are very slow not just medium paced. Symes, Reilly and Thompson would be three of the slowest midfielders going around and all 3 of them are in our midfield.

If they - like a Luke Hodge - are quick thinkers, good uses of the ball, tough and hard at it than you can have them in your side. Thompson, Porplyzia, Vince = tick.

But guys like Reilly (having a good year but far from a great player), Symes, Schmidt plus a few more in our team dont have the strengths to out way their deficiencies.

Its more as a collective group (our midfield and defense) are just far too slow by foot and mind). I believe speed can give you an edge when you have the ball but probably even more so when applying pressure defensively.

 

[lunacy]

Whilst I agree the midfield is lacking some players that can really hurt the opposition, the focus on leg speed is over-rated. The best team in the comp for the past few years, Geelong, doesn't really have leg speed other than Wojenski and Varcoe (who use to play as a forward mostly). BUT what they do have is players who are very skilled in move the ball via hand and foot through the midfield.

Varcoe, Byrnes, Wocjenski, Ablett, Stokes. Its not so much that we dont have enough quicks (although I would love a couple extra as long as they were skilled footballers), but rather how slow some of our players are.

eg comparing Chapman, Kelly, Corey, Bartel, Selwood, S Johnson etc vs Reilly, Symes, Thompson, Vince, Porps etc. Ours are predominantly slow where as their other players are more medium paced like VB, Douglas etc.

We have too many on the actual slow side. I would be happy enough if we have the quicks we do have and then the other guys be medium. But instead we have a few quicks and a lot of genuine slow players.

Dont get me wrong, our list isnt far off and dring Rendell's 3 years I dont think he has recruited many who are slow and poorly skilled.

 

[smoovy]

that apparently you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink




whilst I wait for the knock the door from the flippant police, I might point out I have made myself very clear on these subjects many times.

the only revelation presented in bold is that somehow you think giving up something meaningful for what you need is a bit perverse.

Craig's refusal to entertain proper list building and trading has been a disaster, never more so than at the end of 2009.

Going off on tangents as usual. Was a pretty simple statement intitially, but factoring in your typically vague reponse and your tendancy to always want to play the devils advocate I gather still however that you do not believe the recruiting during the Ayres era left a midfield void.

BTW Craig was there when we traded to get Thompson, which gave us a midfielder in the bracket I am talking about. How many more of these midfielders do you thnk Craig should have got?

 

[CROW36]

Well thats the price we pay for playing finals every year (except this year).

But I cant agree with much of the OP. How does a team this so-called slow and

'average skilled', ever beat the best team in the competition?

It must have something going for it.

That's right three off the top 4 sides have some of the slowest mid's going around (Ablett being an exempion)
but they have some outstanding skills and footy know how.I think its all about pressure on the ball carrier, we deliver inside 50 just as much as any of the top sides only difference being they give there forwards more opportunities while our kicking is terrible and turn the ball over to many times because of bad disposal.

 

[LC40]

Well thats the price we pay for playing finals every year (except this year).

But I cant agree with much of the OP. How does a team this so-called slow and

'average skilled', ever beat the best team in the competition?

It must have something going for it.

That's the disappointing fact we all dine out on.

In two seasons we haven't beaten few teams above us on the ladder yet

because we beat Geelong on our home ground, with a dubious goal thrown in

for luck it demonstrated we have a team that mixes it with the best.

Those two season say otherwise. We have a good honest squad that when

they play at their very best they are near the oppositions intensity.

The goal is to win a premiership.

Firstly the club must resign all the players they consider as absolutely vital

for a tilt at the flag and secondly our recruiters are going to have to

demonstrate how talented they really are in plugging the obvious gaps in our

team make up.

It's going to be hard in a compromised draft for we aren't an overly quick

team and we do needs some mid fielders. Where they find players who can

make a real impact is anybody's guess but it's that or more mediocrity.

The coach's game plan is a different issue!

 

[Pat_Footy]

I've been really impressed with Rory Sloane. I think you've got a gun player in the making. He reminds me of a younger Kerr.

 

[Allefgib]

Going off on tangents as usual. Was a pretty simple statement intitially, but factoring in your typically vague reponse and your tendancy to always want to play the devils advocate I gather still however that you do not believe the recruiting during the Ayres era left a midfield void.

BTW Craig was there when we traded to get Thompson, which gave us a midfielder in the bracket I am talking about. How many more of these midfielders do you thnk Craig should have got?

As he said he's opinion on this is quite clear.

It's nothing to do with Ayres leaving a void but the fact that based on results Craigy hasn't done any better!

 

[Cap]

That's the disappointing fact we all dine out on.

In two seasons we have beaten one team above us on the ladder yet

weren't Fremantle above us? I think Geelong were too?

I could be wrong but I have a feeling Melbourne may have been above us at the time as well, so was Richmond in our first win

 

[smoovy]

As he said he's opinion on this is quite clear.

It's nothing to do with Ayres leaving a void but the fact that based on results Craigy hasn't done any better!

The statement wasn't about who has had the better results, who had a better final record or who has the bigger ****, in fact it wasn't even drawing a comparison.

It was specifically about the current midfield void and reasons why it exists. I am not even blaming Ayres specifically, the recruiting, as a collective whole during the "Ayres" years if you like

 

[LC40]

weren't Fremantle above us? I think Geelong were too?

I could be wrong but I have a feeling Melbourne may have been above us at the time as well, so was Richmond in our first win

Cap apologise, you are correct I was very ambiguous.

In dreamland really I just kept remembering getting beaten last year by

every team above us that were true contenders. Geelong, St Kilda,Western

Bulldogs. Couldn't beat the top teams we needed to beat to be a good team

last year and we were apparently contenders.

Of course when your 0 - 6 nearly every team is above you.

We are still a long way off beating most of those teams again this year

and our performances give me no encouragement that we will consistently do

this in the near future.

 

[TDRP]

**** off.

We have a top 4 list and it has been pissed away this year by a pack of spuds that the club has refused to move on. The AFC should be absolutely ashamed of itself for allowing the 2010 opportunity to slip away in this fashion, and if they don't make some changes 2011 will play out in exactly the same way.

****ing disgrace.

Ha... when I was in my drunken stuper last night I was thinking the exact same thing. Like to know your list of spuds... for the record.

 

[Allefgib]

The statement wasn't about who has had the better results, who had a better final record or who has the bigger ****, in fact it wasn't even drawing a comparison.

It was specifically about the current midfield void and reasons why it exists. I am not even blaming Ayres specifically, the recruiting, as a collective whole during the "Ayres" years if you like

You've entirely missed the point. Craig has created the team he wanted. Best list ever at the club according to the last Footy Ops manager. What has he achieved with that list? What has he achieved with a list and gameplan of his own creation? When he's had longer in the job than Ayres now? Why are we not measuring Craig's success in the same way Ayres was measured?

(that is the line I've heard from him in his posts here all year, and some of last I think)

 

[smoovy]

You've entirely missed the point. Craig has created the team he wanted. Best list ever at the club according to the last Footy Ops manager. What has he achieved with that list? What has he achieved with a list and gameplan of his own creation? When he's had longer in the job than Ayres now? Why are we not measuring Craig's success in the same way Ayres was measured?

(that is the line I've heard from him in his posts here all year, and some of last I think)

I am not missing that point, I am choosing not to talk about that point. You are straight away going into comparisons. I'll say it again, I am not comparing!

The question I posed is (well I posed the question and answered as a statement):

Why do we not have any hardened midfielders in the 26-30 yo age bracket

My answer is: Poor recruiting and subsequent development through the Ayres era

Everyone else's answer is: ?????? Resistance to trading, the years 1980-84 were effected by global warming, etc, etc

 

[amer]

What infuriates me is that there's a finite time to take advantage of having a talented group, and we've already pissed 2010 away. It'd be nice to look back on it as a watershed year (the moving on of the over the hill senior players, etc) which paved the way for success in the couple of seasons that followed, but that'll require the selection committee to reassess a couple of processes that it doesn't seem all that keen to deviate from.

Crow-mo - your suggestion that NC's presser reactions are the result of heat from higher up is off the mark in my opinion. Not at any stage has the board given the slightest hint that it puts anything other than its total support behind him. I believe Neil Craig called his list a top 4 one in the pre season because that's what he saw out there. I don't disagree with him, and frankly I believe anyone justifying our season with "the talent isn't there yet" (I'm looking at you CaptainDangerfield) doesn't know what they're looking at, and is giving the club an outlet that isn't there. I also believe that Neil Craig's outward shows of frustration are just about all him - he's pissed that a list as potent this has underperformed so severely and made him look like he doesn't know what he's doing. So he should be.

It is a requirement that they achieve a top 4 finish next year or blokes have gotta go. If they can't do it with the list they've got, they won't ever be able to bring a premiership to West Lakes.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Really have to agree with the OP re the balance of the list/team...too many with 1) poor skills and compounding that 2) poor leg speed.

The team on the weekend had way too many plodders.

A 'plodder' who has another valuable skill (ie Reilly has saved his bacon by developing a tagging niche) has a place in the side but really you cannot afford too high a proportion of 2nd tier vanilla average players.

Blokes like Symes, Stevens, Douglas, Reilly, Doughty, Schmidt, Griffin, Maric, van Berlo (I've left out Thompson, Tippett, Bock, Rutten because they can be exceptional in other ways)...that is way too many players with the same deficiencies to be a top 4 side. Leaves a heap of pressure on too few to be the top tier game breakers every week. Ultimately, you would only want half that above list in your best 22.

I know injuries have played their part and thus exposed our depth but we really need to get the balance right. That's why we need to be patient with the Jaensch, Gunston, Henderson, Walker types...they have skill, they have a touch of class...and we don't have enough of these.

 

[Allefgib]

I am not missing that point, I am choosing not to talk about that point. You are straight away going into comparisons. I'll say it again, I am not comparing!

The question I posed is (well I posed the question and answered as a statement):

Why do we not have any hardened midfielders in the 26-30 yo age bracket

My answer is: Poor recruiting and subsequent development through the Ayres era

Everyone else's answer is: ?????? Resistance to trading, the years 1980-84 were effected by global warming, etc, etc

Because whoever has been in charge at the club has decided not to make that a priority. (whether that was Ayres during his stint or subsequently Craig during his).

Which is the key point - priorities and decisions made by the coach in charge, either Ayres or Craig, have left us with the list we now have. One that was supposed to challenge for top 4 this year.

The results, in some ways, speak for themselves.