Our worst list since 1982

[lachy]

I have heard Terry Wallace say this is our worst list since 1996. Totally disagree with you Terry this is our worst list since the Royce Hart era.

We have no superstars just a couple of a graders with heaps of c and d graders. Our list management since 2000 is appalling. I challenge anyone to name 5 quality players in that time that were not rookie listed players which really are dumb luck as we were not sure, Griffen or Cooney that were top 3 picks, father son or top up players to pinch a premiership, Aka or Hall. In fact name 3 outside that criteria. Given it takes 5 to 7 years to build a list we are in for a world of hurt if our club can survive at all.

This club needs to remember where it came from and needs vision from the top now, I am not sure enough of our supporters really understand how dire our current predicament is.

 

[Interloper]

I hear you Lachy. Put it this way. If we don’t do almost everything right in the draft this year, trade and upgrade for some genuine talent and win a flag by 2017, we’ll be rebranded the Eastern Bulldogs and we’ll be playing our home games in Auckland, New Zealand.

 

[fronkalicious]

We need to draft better...which means we need more money tipped into recruitment.

We need to better develop our players. Which means better facilities and better/more coaches. Which needs we need more money.

The end game of almost everything is we need more money. Simple conclusion from there.....smorgan has to go. Our footy department is a mile away and ridiculously under funded, so the man at the top must move on.

 

[Interloper]

We are in deep sh**e in my view if we don't win in the next 5 years (and even then maybe). In commercial terms we are an FMCG that is just not moving which makes us very close to obsolete. AFL is a business with commercial imperatives so what do they do with products that aren't selling? They rebrand or relocate or both. We're in trouble. NZ will get a team. It's us or North. Don't want it to be us.

 

[_Mike_]

Our problem lies within the ability to survive as a club with limited success over the next few years. We've survived in the past but how long can we go on with no onfield success. While we are not the only club with financial difficulties, I have a bad feeling that our situation will get worse before it gets better

 

[ManOfClay]

Cede Nullis. Yield to no-one. We'll survive.

To have high points, you need a low. We are in a low but what matters is how we build from here. This is critical. 2012 draft could be the foothills or it could be another flat.

 

[lachy]

I enjoy reading the different views on big footy, even though there are a lot I disagree with.

Through the threads that currently are running hot a lot of focus is on the coach and or players.

Facts are we do have a good coach with a rubbish list and support. Our players try but simply are not good enough.

As a club we stand for nothing and represent nothing. But for a short time when Campbell Rose was at the club at least we had vision. As supporters we need to support people who wish to lead this club with vision. David Smorgon has served this club well and should be recognized for that. And I mean he has been one of the greatest servants of this club, but at some stage everyone's time is up.

As those who have read my posts know I strongly disagree with the name change as it clearly has not worked and I am proud of our history and proud to have always lived in the west of Melbourne. Footscray gateway to the west cover the marketing to the west and we don't need a name change for that.

However, we are in deeper trouble than that. Our debt has grown, we are dependeant on the AFL's generosity. We play at a venue where we will never make money so just being ashamed of our past is not the only issue we need to get past.

Paul Dimmatina if you really have a ticket with the right people, your time is now, otherwise the discussions on this board about players and the coach will be superfluous

 

[Interloper]

Cede Nullis. Yield to no-one. We'll survive.

To have high points, you need a low. We are in a low but what matters is how we build from here. This is critical. 2012 draft could be the foothills or it could be another flat.

It has to be the foothills Gus or we're as good as gone.

 

[ManOfClay]

It has to be the foothills Gus or we're as good as gone.

Refer to first sentence of my post.

 

[Interloper]

Refer to first sentence of my post.

I read it but a sustained period without success will see the AFL call time on us. The sentiment is admirable and should be applied vigorously over the next 5 years with a view to even longer. We've got time but not an endless supply of it.

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Don't think it's our worst list but it would definitely be the most unbalanced list we've ever had and one of the most unbalanced lists in the league of recent years.

Reckon we've got a lot of talent on both ends of the spectrum Murphy, Lake and Boydy are still going great, Gia and Cross have still been good and then you have Wallis, Libba and Dahlhaus who are going great if the young guys. Smith, Tutt and Howard have all shown signs as well. Got a lot have young, developing talls, who have shown glimpses but are still a long way from being consistent performers.

Biggest problem is, of course, that we have one guy in the prime of their career, Griffen. The other guys who should be in that category have either been injury riddled (Cooney , Williams, Higgins) or have left (Ward, Harbow and to a lesser extent Hill).

We have the inside mids pretty much set for the next decade, hopefully the rucks and tall forwards too with any luck, so I don't think our list is in too much of trouble for the time being. Some classy mids with some speed and good footskills in this draft will leave us in good stead and if we get it right added with Libba, Wallis, Dahl and Griff we will be able to stay competitive after we have lost all our older brigade.

 

[lachy]

Don't think it's our worst list but it would definitely be the most unbalanced list we've ever had and one of the most unbalanced lists in the league of recent years.

Reckon we've got a lot of talent on both ends of the spectrum Murphy, Lake and Boydy are still going great, Gia and Cross have still been good and then you have Wallis, Libba and Dahlhaus who are going great if the young guys. Smith, Tutt and Howard have all shown signs as well. Got a lot have young, developing talls, who have shown glimpses but are still a long way from being consistent performers.

Biggest problem is, of course, that we have one guy in the prime of their career, Griffen. The other guys who should be in that category have either been injury riddled (Cooney , Williams, Higgins) or have left (Ward, Harbow and to a lesser extent Hill).

We have the inside mids pretty much set for the next decade, hopefully the rucks and tall forwards too with any luck, so I don't think our list is in too much of trouble for the time being. Some classy mids with some speed and good footskills in this draft will leave us in good stead and if we get it right added with Libba, Wallis, Dahl and Griff we will be able to stay competitive after we have lost all our older brigade.

Obviously a lot more issues have been raised in this thread than just the list itself. However, Murphy, Lake and Boyd are not Grant, West, Smith, Johnson, Darcy et el of 1996 and you need to go back to 1982 since such a poor top group of players. I like your optimism but there are serious consequences of our abysmal list management since 2000, our lack of vision and our lack of pride of what our club stands for.

 

[TedDougChris]

I have heard Terry Wallace say this is our worst list since 1996. Totally disagree with you Terry this is our worst list since the Royce Hart era.

We have no superstars just a couple of a graders with heaps of c and d graders. Our list management since 2000 is appalling. I challenge anyone to name 5 quality players in that time that were not rookie listed players which really are dumb luck as we were not sure, Griffen or Cooney that were top 3 picks, father son or top up players to pinch a premiership, Aka or Hall. In fact name 3 outside that criteria. Given it takes 5 to 7 years to build a list we are in for a world of hurt if our club can survive at all.

A very interesting comment in there... I've just had a quick look at the list, excluding rookies, excluding F/S's, excluding Cooney/Griff and can come up with the following:

Lake, Williams, Wood, Roughead, Jones, Tutt, Howard, Higgins, Grant, Smith. I've excluded a few others just on personal viewpoint. I may have also missed a couple as well. You can potentially argue that only Lake, Williams and Higgins have actually proven themselves, despite the latter two's injury concerns. The others are either kids or haven't proven themselves reliable. You could potentially include Dickson in that list as well.

But like you say, it's a very shallow list. Once you take our Boyd, Morris, Picken, Dahl out (all rookies I think), plus Libba, Wallis and co, it's a pretty bleak drafting position. However, you could add Ward to that list, and Harbrow in the rookie list.

But one of the interesting questions this raises is "Does Macca deserve all the flack he's getting on here ??? "

He's had about 5 minutes to have any impact on the list, he's not responsible for the last 10 years drafting, but people are calling for his head....

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Obviously a lot more issues have been raised in this thread than just the list itself. However, Murphy, Lake and Boyd are not Grant, West, Smith, Johnson, Darcy et el of 1996 and you need to go back to 1982 since such a poor top group of players. I like your optimism but there are serious consequences of our abysmal list management since 2000, our lack of vision and our lack of pride of what our club stands for.

Our list management has been poor but I don't really blame them in recent years. We had a chance to win the premiership so we brought in old guys such as Hall and Aker to try and get that flag. Unfortunately we fell short but we are now facing the consequences of the "abysmal list management".

Fortunately though I think the father-sons has saved us from things being very, very bad right now. Wallis would have been top 10 and we got him for pick 20 odd and got Libba who would've gone top 15 at pick 40 odd, add Dahlhaus too and we aren't looking too bad. I have no doubt that if it weren't for that draft we would be in a worse shape than Melbourne are now in a few seasons.

The foundations are being set for our next shot, so I think there is reason for optimism, even if the rest of the season and next season are going to be very tough.

 

[paulveed]

I must admit that I am concerned re our long term future. Without success on the field, finances will remain an albatross around our necks. As some one suggested, what comes first...the chicken or the egg?
My concern is that the next TV rights deal will likely be less rather than more than the current one. Where does that leave the league financially? Looking to cut costs, and increase it's footprint to support ongoing rights deals into the future.
Other codes are doing this by bringing in teams/competitions from other countries/states. Does the league look to a NZ team? To do this without increasing the total number of teams - an unlikely option if finances are a problem, then two options remain:

1. Delete team/s to make room, and thereby eliminate those who are not financially self sustaining. Doggies and NM being the most obvious targets.

2. The dreaded M word. Without increasing the size of the competition, a new licence could be made available by blending two financially struggling teams.

Now before anyone comes looking for my head, I am not advocating this as an option, merely stating the obvious. It has been done within most codes and competitions around the country and the world.
While I would hate to see it happen, and most of all would hate for it to happen to us, I cannot help but fear that once the pressure [ financial] comes back on, that the League will see this as their least unpalatable solution. IE ... retain an 18 team comp, and open up an entirely new market and TV audience. And despite my personal feelings to the contrary, I could see how the AFL might see a marriage of two neighbouring strugglers with minimal resources and memberships as the answer to their problems.

May God forbid.

 

[lachy]

Our list management has been poor but I don't really blame them in recent years. We had a chance to win the premiership so we brought in old guys such as Hall and Aker to try and get that flag. Unfortunately we fell short but we are now facing the consequences of the "abysmal list management".

Fortunately though I think the father-sons has saved us from things being very, very bad right now. Wallis would have been top 10 and we got him for pick 20 odd and got Libba who would've gone top 15 at pick 40 odd, add Dahlhaus too and we aren't looking too bad. I have no doubt that if it weren't for that draft we would be in a worse shape than Melbourne are now in a few seasons.

The foundations are being set for our next shot, so I think there is reason for optimism, even if the rest of the season and next season are going to be very tough.

I like your optimism. I note in another thread you were accused of looking at things through rose colored glasses, me I prefer to call you passionate in your support of the club.

Unfortunately, my concern is there will not be a next shot unless fundamental changes are made at the club and they all work. Also, I do beleive 2 years is extremely optimistic, 4 to 5 years at best with what we have

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Also, I do beleive 2 years is extremely optimistic, 4 to 5 years at best with what we have

We're no chance in two years. Two years is more about when we lose all the old guys and I'm hoping we can stay competitive when they are gone. I don't see us making the finals for at least three years but it's important to set the foundations asap and I think that's what we're doing.

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

Has there been a time in the history of the Footscray/Western Bulldogs Football club, that a team was developed from the ground up? I think No. Have we experienced success by not doing it that way? No. Have teams that have rebuilt their lists from the ground up found success? Yes.

I can understand people are impatient, especially as we came so dam close for three years. But the reality is that we need to build a team, not build on an assortment of players - big difference.

 

[RedWhite&Blue]

I'm very optimistic about our list and our prospects over the next 3 to 4 years. We've got young talent developing in the back line and midfield... Forward line is a bit bare but we'll draft well this year and plug a few holes.
We've come off a great period in the club's history and the whole system is designed so that you drop down, regenerate, push up again.
This was ALWAYS going to be a dissappointing year onfield. Anyone who knows anything about the game and where our club is at knew this coming into this season.
Enjoy the glimpses we get from the young guys, they will develop and become more consistent.
Show faith in the coach and his plans, he comes with some great references from those who actually know.
5 picks in the top 40 in the deepest draft in years... We're gonna kill'em.

 

[FlyingDog]

It might be yes but I can't judge by the performances of last few weeks. What I thinks is we didn't put out best team or best position of the players. There are many reasons why but I don't know, just my feeling. During the game, the coach tried not to hard to win the game. It looks like the focus is on the education or game time for the young pups not the winning of the game. If we win it is good if not so be it. And also we haven't tried all our players yet. I'd like to see Panos in our forward line for 3-4 weeks. I don't know how severe so called resting players condition is but if Tory played against Carlton then we might win (specially after Higgo subbed). But as I said before the coach's priority is not winning as many as games. Yes, it makes me frustrating during the game but I will delay my judgement until second half of the next year. I wish my observation is right otherwise it is total mess and disastrous next 3 years.

 

[Curly5]

The AFL has a lot to answer for, allowing the new clubs to raid us and take two of our best developing players. The Ward theft has had huge ramifications for our club and team, imo. I'm just relieved the club has secured the little chap on the left, at least for the next few years.

 

[Guido]

The AFL has a lot to answer for, allowing the new clubs to raid us and take two of our best developing players.

We had 5 years warning and $8.8 million of cap space to accommodate our best players. How about allocating some responsibility for where this list sits on the people directly responsible for managing it?

 

[Barkly St End]

Hard to compare our list to 30 years ago. Different times, different circumstances, etc.

At least in 1982 we won a few games (from memory), including a great win at home against Hawthorn, and Beaser probably kicked a few.

The worst thing about this year is that it's really, really hard to find positives - to find something to hang our collective hat on.

Foward line has shown nothing - defence being carried by too few, some aging - some good young and old players in the middle, but no one who can use the footy and kill the opposition.

 

[_Mike_]

We're in a similar position to where we were in 1996 and our current list capabilities was very similar to what we had back then with a combination of young and older players. We finished 15th on 22 points. Can we rise up again like we did in 97, I dont think so with the current list. Might take a few years longer

 

[Barkly St End]

We're in a similar position to where we were in 1996 and our current list capabilities was very similar to what we had back then with a combination of young and older players. We finished 15th on 22 points. Can we rise up again like we did in 97, I dont think so with the current list. Might take a few years longer

It's worth recalling that no one predicted our rise up the ladder in 1997 - or in 1992 for that matter.

I think it's a bit harder to replicate these days, especially over that 1996 to 1999 period, the comp seemed a lot more open - but history tells us that rapid rises aren't impossible.