Pay holding the ball

[Ancient Tiger]

The problem is not the rule but the way umpires are now interpreting it. It has always been that you have to legally dispose of the ball. The point is now how long do you get? They are giving players far too long, especially compared to yesteryear. This also leads to more congestion and lower scores. This was obvious today especially in that last tackle on Stephenson who was brought to the ground (holding the ball) then threw it out (holding the ball) only to have no free paid and then an in the back decision on Callum Brown. Last night players were allowed to illegally dispose the ball with a good tackle regularly and play on called frequently.

Just tighten the rules and apply them. It's not that hard. And do it to both teams......

 

[nut]

The rule is fine ... it’s the umpires that aren’t.
Incorrect disposal = dropping the ball regardless of Prior.
No Genuine attempt to dispose of the ball ... regardless of no prior = holding the ball.
It’s pretty simple.

You get tackled with no prior you must
A. Make a genuine attenpt
B. Not drop the ball.

It’s the rule that the umpires have the biggest influence on the game.

 

[nut]

Even without prior players make no attempt to legally dispose of the ball.

If they won't get rid of prior atleast umpire it by the book, players must make a legitimate attempt, no benefit of the doubt given, none of this half arsed shytte players do now where they know if they havent had prior they can just drop it.

Yep.... and if the tackle is so good that an attempt to dispose the ball can’t be made than it’s the perfect tackle and should be rewarded.

 

[saha]

Incorrect disposal = dropping the ball regardless of Prior.

You get tackled with no prior you must
A. Make a genuine attenpt
B. Not drop the ball.

It’s the rule that the umpires have the biggest influence on the game.

You say it's simple but your first line is contradicted slightly by your subsequent points about 'genuine attempt' and 'not dropping the ball'. I don't believe the assertion about 'incorrect disposal = dropping the ball regardless of prior' is as black and white as you say given you can actually drop the ball with no prior e.g. Darcy Moore today on the interchange side. However, your second point is, in fact, the correct interpretation but is also the reason that incorrect disposal has been allowed to creep back into the game. And that's the reason why Moore got away with it.

The question we - and the AFL - must ask ourselves is whether it's what the game wants. I say in those instances a free kick should be awarded to the tackler. Arguments about creating a comical sequence of players tapping the ball in front of themselves is valid but in these cases players will still back themselves to gather the ball and try to get an effective disposal away.

The AFL may argue via the umpires that changing the current rule could lead to 100 free kicks being be paid per game. However, it may actually open the game up further as it'd lead to more turnovers. Given their fixation more scoring, it may be the thing that can do it given how damaging teams can be once turning over the ball.

 

[NoobPie]

So if the ball is in between two players you’re probably better off letting the other bloke get it and tackle him.

That’s not a game I want to play or watch.

Exactly, I have no problem with the "team holding the ball" concept but people think this is far more simplistic than it is.

Completely removing "prior opportunity" would massively shift the game. Paying incorrect disposal for a player who has not had prior opportunity, but retaining it otherwise, would result in players not attempting to dispose of it if they've not had prior

 

[outabounds]

I reckon we saw an attempt at 5 minutes to the death, down to the wire Grand Final umpiring today and it failed miserably. It's not a Grand Final, not is it any more important than any other game for 4 points. If the umpires were instructed to let it go and be different to other games then it's wrong. After all those ridiculous non decisions on holding the ball, Pendelbury, blatantly ducks his head and milks a professional free which the idiots pay FFS.

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[blue harvest]

The rule is fine ... it’s the umpires that aren’t.
Incorrect disposal = dropping the ball regardless of Prior.
No Genuine attempt to dispose of the ball ... regardless of no prior = holding the ball.
It’s pretty simple.

You get tackled with no prior you must
A. Make a genuine attenpt
B. Not drop the ball.

That's not the rule though
With no prior all you have to do is attempt to kick or handball, if it drops out it is play on. Most footy fans don't actually know this rule, the umpires do.

Incorrect disposal is throwing or handing the ball to someone. It applies all over the ground at all times, it is separate to htb rule. Most footy fans don't know this, the umpires do.

Fans and commentators need to spend 30 seconds reading the rule book.

 

[Kangapirate]

It’s reached a point where the only way to have complete fairness is to do away with it altogether, possession will just change over as the ball spills loose, or your own team gathers the spillage. As it stands the rule and how it’s officiated changes game to game. Maybe just get rid of it?

 

[quotemokc]

Another one which happened today.

If a player has the ball for a few seconds and then gets taken to ground (not bumped to ground) PAY HOLDING THE BALL don't give them a second to dispose of it as they lie on the ground. Reward the playing for driving them into the dirt not the player getting caught.

 

[Kangapirate]

Another one which happened today.

If a player has the ball for a few seconds and then gets taken to ground (not bumped to ground) PAY HOLDING THE BALL don't give them a second to dispose of it as they lie on the ground. Reward the playing for driving them into the dirt not the player getting caught.

This happened every 5 minutes today from both teams

 

[Sedat!]

Prior opportunity has caused all of the problems with umpiring - it promotes congestion, repeat stoppages and lack of positional play. Why should a player be allowed to do nothing with the ball just because they got there first? Removing prior opp will also make life so much easier for the umpires, as they will simply have to work out if a tackle is legitimate or not.

Players and coaches will very quickly adjust and adapt and the game will open up far more IMO.

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[Shane Heard]

Is incorrect disposal / dropping the ball even a rule anymore?

Short answer. No.

It’s like U9s.

 

[blue harvest]

Is incorrect disposal / dropping the ball even a rule anymore?

No such rule as dropping the ball, never has been as far as I'm aware.

Incorrect disposal is throwing or handing the ball to someone, this does exist.

 

[doppleganger]

No such rule as dropping the ball, never has been as far as I'm aware.

Incorrect disposal is throwing or handing the ball to someone, this does exist.

Finally someone else who has clearly read the rule book..

And yes incorrect disposal is a rule in general play, it doesn’t apply when a player is being tackled. A tackle either results in holding the ball or play on.

It should be a prerequisite for any football media people to actually have completed a level one umpiring course.
That way they actually understand the rules as they are actually written.

If you are being tackled ‘incorrect disposal’ doesn’t apply at all. The Stephenson non-free is almost to the letter of the law according to 15.2.4 (e)


15.2.4 Application – Specific Instances where Play shall Continue

For the avoidance of doubt, the field Umpire shall allow play to continue when:
(a) a Player is bumped and the football falls from the Player’s hands;
(b) a Player’s arm is knocked which causes the Player to lose
possession of the football;
(c) a Player’s arms are pinned to their side by an opponent which causes the Player to drop the football, unless the Player has had a prior opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the football, in which case Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply;
(d) a Player, whilst in the act of Correctly Disposing of the football, is swung off-balance and does not make contact with the football by either foot or hand, unless the Player has had a prior opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the football, in which case Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply; or
(e) a Player is pulled or swung by one arm which causes the football to fall from the Player’s hands, unless the Player has had a prior opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the football, in which case Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply.

Stephenson was immediately pulled to the ground by one arm, he had no prior opportunity, the ball spilled free.

The rules stipulate that is play on!

 

[telsor]

The other problem with strictly enforcing such rules (holding the ball/incorrect disposal) is that you're discouraging players from actually taking possession in traffic.

Richmond's success is already built on avoiding this where possible (tap ons, kicking off the ground, etc) and penalising the opposition when they take the ball in hand ( 'pressure football' ).

As a Richmond fan, I like that my team has a (usually) successful tactic, but the implications of it are troubling. Further penalising those who take possession of the ball would make the game a very ugly thing.

 

[nut]

Finally someone else who has clearly read the rule book..

And yes incorrect disposal is a rule in general play, it doesn’t apply when a player is being tackled. A tackle either results in holding the ball or play on.

It should be a prerequisite for any football media people to actually have completed a level one umpiring course.
That way they actually understand the rules as they are actually written.

If you are being tackled ‘incorrect disposal’ doesn’t apply at all. The Stephenson non-free is almost to the letter of the law according to 15.2.4 (e)


15.2.4 Application – Specific Instances where Play shall Continue

For the avoidance of doubt, the field Umpire shall allow play to continue when:
(a) a Player is bumped and the football falls from the Player’s hands;
(b) a Player’s arm is knocked which causes the Player to lose
possession of the football;
(c) a Player’s arms are pinned to their side by an opponent which causes the Player to drop the football, unless the Player has had a prior opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the football, in which case Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply;
(d) a Player, whilst in the act of Correctly Disposing of the football, is swung off-balance and does not make contact with the football by either foot or hand, unless the Player has had a prior opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the football, in which case Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply; or
(e) a Player is pulled or swung by one arm which causes the football to fall from the Player’s hands, unless the Player has had a prior opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the football, in which case Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply.

Stephenson was immediately pulled to the ground by one arm, he had no prior opportunity, the ball spilled free.

The rules stipulate that is play on!

Well I that’s not how they normally umpire the rule.

 

[wedgetail]

No such rule as dropping the ball, never has been as far as I'm aware.

Incorrect disposal is throwing or handing the ball to someone, this does exist.

If there is no rule as dropping the ball (which I grew up playing with, albeit 30 years ago) why do the umpires still signal dropping the ball after they blow the whistle? Arms to the chest, out to the side. Which used to mean 'dropping the ball' ?

Wrapping someone up and pinning one arm used to be a perfect tackle because the ball was out there with no options for clean disposal so you had to drop it. Simple clear free kick. If you got tackled and didn't kick or handball, simple free kick.

Who gives a shit about 'prior opportunity'. It's Another judgemental grey area like deliberate out of bounds. Its either out on the full, or a throw in.

Times were simpler then. Decisions were obvious and no players stood around wondering who the umpire was going to gift the free kick to

It needs simplifying for the honesty of the game

 

[deck]

So if the ball is in between two players you’re probably better off letting the other bloke get it and tackle him.

That’s not a game I want to play or watch.

Exactly. Treloar was pinned for one today after beating I think McGrath to the ball only to be instantly tackled and pinned for incorrect disposal. If this got paid all the time who would want to be first to the ball.

Yeah we want to reward good tackles but not at the expense of players winning the hard ball.

 

[telsor]

If there is no rule as dropping the ball (which I grew up playing with, albeit 30 years ago) why do the umpires still signal dropping the ball after they blow the whistle? Arms to the chest, out to the side. Which used to mean 'dropping the ball' ?

Wrapping someone up and pinning one arm used to be a perfect tackle because the ball was out there with no options for clean disposal so you had to drop it. Simple clear free kick. If you got tackled and didn't kick or handball, simple free kick.

Who gives a shit about 'prior opportunity'. It's Another judgemental grey area like deliberate out of bounds. Its either out on the full, or a throw in.

Times were simpler then. Decisions were obvious and no players stood around wondering who the umpire was going to gift the free kick to

It needs simplifying for the honesty of the game

The rule is 'incorrect disposal'.

Dropping it *might* qualify as that.

 

[precarious]

That's not the rule though
With no prior all you have to do is attempt to kick or handball, if it drops out it is play on. Most footy fans don't actually know this rule, the umpires do.

Yes, exactly right IMO. Reading Rule 17.6.3 of the Laws of the Game clears a lot up and seems consistent with how the umpires are adjudicating.

The key when the ball comes out but the player has no prior appears to be whether or not, in the view of the umpire, the player "elects" to dispose incorrectly.So long as a player tries to dispose correctly, it is okay.

17.6.3 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Incorrect Disposal

Where a Player in Possession of the Football has not had Prior Opportunity,
a Free Kick shall be awarded if that Player elects to Incorrectly Dispose of
the football when Legally Tackled.

For the avoidance of doubt, a Player does not elect to Incorrectly Dispose
of the football when:
(a) the Player genuinely attempts to Correctly Dispose of the football;
(b) the Legal Tackle causes the football to be dislodged from the
Player’s possession.

link: http://websites.sportstg.com/get_file.cgi?id=36630645

 

[iBeng]

We've had players pinged all year for it, but then when the opponents do it after we tackle them we get pinged for tackling without the ball.

So we literally cannot win.

 

[Achilles Heel]

Keep in mind that prior opportunity as a concept is not much more than 20 years old.

Holding the ball is 150 years old and has gradually been eroded by reinterpretations of the original rule.

The idea that taking possession of the ball and not disposing of it correctly after being tackled is a free kick is a fundamental of the game. Bring it back.

It’s rules like that , which made our game unique , handball was a unique skill which differentiated us from the rugby codes , Australian Rules is now rugby union with forward passing, out of 10 handballs 9 are throws, Gillian and his w***ers have all but destroyed the fabric of the game

 

[Mitchell Madness]

The problem is not the rule but the way umpires are now interpreting it. It has always been that you have to legally dispose of the ball. The point is now how long do you get? They are giving players far too long, especially compared to yesteryear. This also leads to more congestion and lower scores. This was obvious today especially in that last tackle on Stephenson who was brought to the ground (holding the ball) then threw it out (holding the ball) only to have no free paid and then an in the back decision on Callum Brown. Last night players were allowed to illegally dispose the ball with a good tackle regularly and play on called frequently.

Just tighten the rules and apply them. It's not that hard. And do it to both teams......

Not even. 20 yrs ago, if your arms were pinned, the ump balled it up, or paid a free if it was incorrectly disposed of
Now, if your arm is pinned, the ump errs on the side of caution and calls play on

 

[Achilles Heel]

That's not the rule though
With no prior all you have to do is attempt to kick or handball, if it drops out it is play on. Most footy fans don't actually know this rule, the umpires do.

Incorrect disposal is throwing or handing the ball to someone. It applies all over the ground at all times, it is separate to htb rule. Most footy fans don't know this, the umpires do.

Fans and commentators need to spend 30 seconds reading the rule book.

How many times is the ball thrown or handed over and paid? Very few and even if it’s blatantly obvious they don’t pay, how in ****s name can you dispose of the ball by hand using one arm? Read the ****ing the rules moron, the umpires have no ****ing idea about what constitutes correct disposal , att3mpting to kick and missing the ball is not and never has been correct disposal . Rugby throws , Clayton Oliver and Adam Treloar are the leading exponents has never been correct disposal,

Read the rules

 

[QuietB]

Just pay it. It’s a fundamental feature of the game. Pay it.

The game would improve immeasurably if they paid it.

And it is simple.

To dispose of the ball you need to handball or kick it.

Anything else is holding/dropping the ball.