Pies lacking hunger

[Ant85]

I'm in the minority of thread starters, but judging from many comments in a variety of venting threads, this topic seems worthy to stand alone.

If there's one thing we all agree on is that we've had a poorer than expected start to the year. We're all searching for the reasons why.

Some have attacked our skill level, others have used the usual scapegoats in our side to diss (Johnson, Cox, O'bree etc.), others have blamed Malthouse.

But in most threads, many posters at some point referred to the following issues that have nothing to do with our skill level, nor our game plan:

Mental/psychological weakness, lack of confidence, no hunger, no interest, no desire, no passion, no "want", easily intimidated etc.

Certainly the first week against Adelaide we showed absolutely no interest nor any desire to win.

In the first quarter against Melbourne, we were still on another planet.

Against Geelong, if we look at the stats, they were pretty even. Where they beat us was not in terms of stats, but mentally. They turned up in the 2nd quarter, applied the pressure, and we cracked. A total lack of confidence in our abilities showed with our poor disposals.

If we turn the clock back to 2008, we can see in many occasions where we were easily pushed over, showed no passion/hunger, and were easily intimidated: Carlton, North, Hawthorn etc.

We have seen our potential when we do show confidence, are mentally strong, and have passion ... Geelong match 2008 and first final v Adelaide.

What can be the cause of this? Why do we play so often without any heart? Is this the difference between us finishing 5 - 8 and top 4? Will a change in coach bring some spirit back into the black and white? Are we pampering our players too much with luxury and status?

Is Collingwood (footy wise) soulless?

The above questions aren't exactly my opinion, but I'd like to get a good discussion to see what people think. Many have already highlighted it as a major problem, so what to do about it?

 

[wicksy]

I'm in the minority of thread starters, but judging from many comments in a variety of venting threads, this topic seems worthy to stand alone.

If there's one thing we all agree on is that we've had a poorer than expected start to the year. We're all searching for the reasons why.

Some have attacked our skill level, others have used the usual scapegoats in our side to diss (Johnson, Cox, O'bree etc.), others have blamed Malthouse.

But in most threads, many posters at some point referred to the following issues that have nothing to do with our skill level, nor our game plan:

Mental/psychological weakness, lack of confidence, no hunger, no interest, no desire, no passion, no "want", easily intimidated etc.

Certainly the first week against Adelaide we showed absolutely no interest nor any desire to win.

In the first quarter against Melbourne, we were still on another planet.

Against Geelong, if we look at the stats, they were pretty even. Where they beat us was not in terms of stats, but mentally. They turned up in the 2nd quarter, applied the pressure, and we cracked. A total lack of confidence in our abilities showed with our poor disposals.

If we turn the clock back to 2008, we can see in many occasions where we were easily pushed over, showed no passion/hunger, and were easily intimidated: Carlton, North, Hawthorn etc.

We have seen our potential when we do show confidence, are mentally strong, and have passion ... Geelong match 2008 and first final v Adelaide.

What can be the cause of this? Why do we play so often without any heart? Is this the difference between us finishing 5 - 8 and top 4? Will a change in coach bring some spirit back into the black and white? Are we pampering our players too much with luxury and status?

Is Collingwood (footy wise) soulless?

The above questions aren't exactly my opinion, but I'd like to get a good discussion to see what people think. Many have already highlighted it as a major problem, so what to do about it?

Agree totally Ant!
I do not follow the rest of the herd who use Cox as a scapegoat but him laughing and joking with a Geelong player late in the 4th quarter, Thursday night, shows that he didn't really care that we were going to lose.

Unfortunately it is the players that seem to care the most about improving (ie: Danny Stanley) that can't get a game.

 

[Optimax]

Agree totally Ant!
I do not follow the rest of the herd who use Cox as a scapegoat but him laughing and joking with a Geelong player late in the 4th quarter, Thursday night, shows that he didn't really care that we were going to lose.

Unfortunately it is the players that seem to care the most about improving (ie: Danny Stanley) that can't get a game.

Wicksy the herd that bags Cox is just me

there is no herd but a vocal me

Otherwise carry on

 

[Rohan Coventry]

Players look stale IMO. A taxing preseason & gameplan does that.

 

[mdc]

Wicksy the herd that bags Cox is just me

there is no herd but a vocal me

Otherwise carry on

You need to check that "player review" thread that popped up after thursday's match. There is most definitely a herd.

As for the OP, meh. I tend to believe fitness/preparation (or lack thereof) often manifests itself as a lack of effort/hunger. Players tend to try as hard as they can.

 

[Optimax]

You need to check that "player review" thread that popped up after thursday's match. There is most definitely a herd.

Really?

All as harsh as me?

 

[FuManchu]

some players are overcoached and have lost their instincts. Some never had instincts ( Toovey). Thomas still retains his flair, but thats his personality, but too much longer under someone who demands a certain game plan at all costs will eventually stifle him as well.

Its funny, they spots these young kids, see talent in them and then spend however long trying kill those traits.

Its not just Collingwood that dos it either.

 

[FloreatPica17]

some players are overcoached and have lost their instincts. Some never had instincts ( Toovey). Thomas still retains his flair, but thats his personality, but too much longer under someone who demands a certain game plan at all costs will eventually stifle him as well.

Its funny, they spots these young kids, see talent in them and then spend however long trying kill those traits.

Its not just Collingwood that dos it either.

Interesting take. Tarrant must've been coached a hell of a lot.
I reckon the big stage and the black 'n' white jumper plays a big part too, even on experienced players, but footballers like Beams - u can see they love it.

 

[mattys123]

I think the reason we look slow/sluggish or seem to lack hunger, is that many of our senior players went into the season underdone.

Our pre season was once again ill managed by the so called "experts" at the lexus Centre.

Last year it was the round the world trip (Sth Africa, Dubai, Albany etc), this year it was the Arizona trip then the full on NAB Cup campaign.

I believe the fitness staff prepare the players more for the so called "business" end of the season, rather then the start, and this year that added to a tiring pre season some of our players seem sluggish compared to laste last year.

We will improve fitness wise, signs are already there indicating that, but the chicken might have already flown the coup, and we very well may start the season 1-3, knocking out any chance of top 4 and making it bloody hard for even a top 8 spot.

As for Cox laughing and smiling with an opponent, were you standing next to him, the Geelong bloke might have told the funniest story ever, we dont know and never will, and Cox is one player we shouldnt be worried about, at the moment he is one of only 2 players that has improved us so far.

 

[FuManchu]

I think the reason we look slow/sluggish or seem to lack hunger, is that many of our senior players went into the season underdone.

Our pre season was once again ill managed by the so called "experts" at the lexus Centre.

Last year it was the round the world trip (Sth Africa, Dubai, Albany etc), this year it was the Arizona trip then the full on NAB Cup campaign.

I believe the fitness staff prepare the players more for the so called "business" end of the season, rather then the start, and this year that added to a tiring pre season some of our players seem sluggish compared to laste last year.

We will improve fitness wise, signs are already there indicating that, but the chicken might have already flown the coup, and we very well may start the season 1-3, knocking out any chance of top 4 and making it bloody hard for even a top 8 spot.

As for Cox laughing and smiling with an opponent, were you standing next to him, the Geelong bloke might have told the funniest story ever, we dont know and never will, and Cox is one player we shouldnt be worried about, at the moment he is one of only 2 players that has improved us so far.

There seems to be a slight more emphasis on upper body strength this year. I think they have had a look at Geelong and hawthorn and seen that is the new 'mini' trend. geelong are much bigger than we are. And that will be the way until they start overdoing it and a team lighter on their feet come along and take all in front of them. We have had a few of these cycles so far.

But as much as planning for the business end of the year, thats all OK, but they need to get there first.

The advantages of Arizona are a bit of a furphy. To maintain the aerobic advantage of altitude training, you need to be pretty much living in it for 3 months for it to be a prolonged effect. The altitude chamber at Lexus ( if they still have it) is not enough, because they players are breathing and operating in sea level conditions for so much of the day, that the body really only adjusts to that. Its just a front for a bonding trip. No problems with that, but lets not kid ourselves. Other clubs arent doing it because they know its true worth.

 

[Visions]

some players are overcoached and have lost their instincts. Some never had instincts ( Toovey). Thomas still retains his flair, but thats his personality, but too much longer under someone who demands a certain game plan at all costs will eventually stifle him as well.

Its funny, they spots these young kids, see talent in them and then spend however long trying kill those traits.

Its not just Collingwood that dos it either.

I tend to agree with this. As Morgan Freeman once said "they become institutionalised." They're in the system too long.

Prime example of this are the actual beautiful long kicks we have at the club like Didak. Bit hard to use it as an offensive weapon when they are taught to chip it 20 - 25 metres downfield. They conform and eventually lose some of their ability.

 

[Rohan Coventry]

and Cox is one player we shouldnt be worried about, at the moment he is one of only 2 players that has improved us so far.

There are far more pressing issues than Cox, who IMO has been good this year. Only an idiot would suggest otherwise.

 

[thatday]

I remember having said similar things in the past only to be shot down completely by other posters and told that I am not a real supporter of the club. It's nice to see I am not alone in the thought that some of our players lack hunger and heart. Often it would appear as though some of the players don't care about the result as they get paid anyway, obviously they do care but they don't show it alot of the time.

 

[FloreatPica17]

As for Cox laughing and smiling with an opponent, were you standing next to him, the Geelong bloke might have told the funniest story ever, we dont know and never will.[/quote]


True, could've even passed wind. That kind of stuff cracks me up.

 

[FuManchu]

There are far more pressing issues than Cox, who IMO has been good this year. Only an idiot would suggest otherwise.

I could have strangled him when he kept running and forgot to bounce the friggen thing. I mean..... doesnt some sort of instinct kick in to let you know that 15 metres is looming?

The ump gave him a fair bit of latitude, he ran 30 I reckon before he got pinged.

 

[Snag Breac]

I've posted this elsewhere, but it relates to this topic and I can't be bothered typing it all out again.

If we don't win a couple at least the players' confidence will begin to slide.
Unlike some posters who think the lads were apathetic against Geelong, I thought they really wanted to win, and believed they could in the first quarter. The failures in front of goal were in part evidence of the pressure they felt. The fact that we weren't slaughtered in the end was something.
But.......watching they way Geelong could intercept the ball in the forward 50, and keep JA and Cloke out of it, watching Ablett grab that ball and then put it exactly where he wanted it 40 bloody times, and watching their players all over the ground take posession with an almost casual grace, I finally had to admit that we're simply not up to their standard - yet.

Our lads do have talent and heart and determination, but they don't yet have the bodies, the skills, the experience, or the consistency that is a product of all three.

I was really hoping that 2009 would be the year, but wiser heads have been saying 2010-2012, and now I see that they may be right. We have the cattle, but at the moment they're just calves.

 

[wicksy]

As for Cox laughing and smiling with an opponent, were you standing next to him, the Geelong bloke might have told the funniest story ever, we dont know and never will, and Cox is one player we shouldnt be worried about, at the moment he is one of only 2 players that has improved us so far.

Totally agree mate.... he has been good this year and whoever says he hasn't has got no idea.... BUT...... I don't care if he told the joke to end all jokes, Shannon should have been extremely f**** pissed off that the team had lost again after having such a healthy lead.

It was just an example of a player seeming disinterested in winning which is why I agree with the folk on here saying that we should bring Stanners and Rusty in asap!

You can just tell that players like Bryan, Jack, Rusty, beamer, Daisy and Stanners would do anything to get the team across the line.

Players like Wood, Cox, Wellingham, Corrie, (and Fraser to some degree), no matter how skillful they are, will not help win us a flag with the lack of heart muscle they're showing at the moment.

As for saying the preseason and lack of fitness is the reason.... what a load of crap! The boys, minus a few, had the best pre season I can remember and look the fittest I have ever seen them.....I'm sure that not one of the boys would use lack of fitness as the reason they have lost two games already this year.