Possible Small Defenders We Should Chase

[catempire]

If prismall is determined to leave at the end of the year and who could blame him, I think we do have a trade of some currency in him. Although I would prefer we trade for early draft picks because I trust in Wells selections and it is obvious we will need to stock up on defenders soon.

Problem is, unless we get some kind of bidding war and his club of choice is a bidder, we'll get nothing and watch him walk into the PSD for nothing.

 

[Schultz]

No need, to chase anyone,Donohue from what I've seen looks a ready made player, just give him a bit of time. Until then we have Boris, Wojak, Hunt and Harley who can play on smalls. Don't forget DJ can also play on someone like Akermanis.

 

[year of the cat]

DJ is the interesting one. Any chance he would be brought back against the pies to match up specifically on one of their small forwards?

 

[hamG]

I have no problem with Hunt as a defender.

Basically if you want to look at pure stoppers for small forwards they are called taggers. Most of the gun small forwards spend half the game leading up the wing or in the midfield anyway (Didak, the Daveys, Chapman + many more). Rooke can be used as a tagger, not sure about DJ's engine but he doesn't do much wrong when he's in the back 6, he just isn't cut from the same pedigree as our top 22-26.

We are not Adelaide or Sydney, our focus is fast attacking relentless football and our lineup should represent that. Look what happened to St Kilda when they brought in a defensive oriented coach preaching accountability and sacked a proven winning attacking coach, basically ruined the club for the next 5 years. Just thought i'd throw that one in.

 

[The Casey Cat]

DJ is the interesting one. Any chance he would be brought back against the pies to match up specifically on one of their small forwards?

I would think so yes.

 

[martyk]

That is why we need a decent small defender NOW. Every small forward is too dangerous against us, like Thomas, Campbell, Leon Davis, Didak, Ebert, the Daveys etc.

Josh Hunt isnt the right type for these sorts of blokes, and neither is anyon eelse on our list, like D.J.

Josh Hunt has his limitations, but is fast and strong... the requirement for Ebert, Medhurst, N.Brown etc, etc... He is the best small key defender on our list, not to mention the best kick.

Mate, you just don't get it I'm afraid. The players you've mentioned are always dangerous against any side. When they are on fire its almost impossible to stop them. The solution for the TEAM is to not put the defenders under pressure to the stage where they are getting torn to shreds by their respective opponent.... you can't see this like a band-aid fix. If you put Scarlett in Melbourne's defense, he would still get plenty of goals kicked on him... just the way it is.

You need a good mix, that is the solution. Too many unaccountable Mackies, Enrights and Wojcinskis will spoil the balance. These blokes have the easiest roles in the side... good on them, they're opponents love it though. Our balance with Scarlett / Egan / Hunt is PERFECT! They take the key roles... the others run off their respectives. How we play without 2 of them is another story... We certaintly got shown up by a WELL UNDER-MANNED Kangaroos forward line without all 3 or Taylor(also key defender)...

Here is where my Harley gripe comes in. Doesn't take a key defensive role without getting beaten (not when we're on top, but when we're under the pump), + is useless at ground level offensively.

 

[The Casey Cat]

Josh Hunt has his limitations, but is fast and strong... the requirement for Ebert, Medhurst, N.Brown etc, etc... He is the best small key defender on our list, not to mention the best kick.

Mate, you just don't get it I'm afraid. The players you've mentioned are always dangerous against any side. When they are on fire its almost impossible to stop them. The solution for the TEAM is to not put the defenders under pressure to the stage where they are getting torn to shreds by their respective opponent.... you can't see this like a band-aid fix. If you put Scarlett in Melbourne's defense, he would still get plenty of goals kicked on him... just the way it is.

You need a good mix, that is the solution. Too many unaccountable Mackies, Enrights and Wojcinskis will spoil the balance. These blokes have the easiest roles in the side... good on them, they're opponents love it though. Our balance with Scarlett / Egan / Hunt is PERFECT! They take the key roles... the others run off their respectives. How we play without 2 of them is another story... We certaintly got shown up by a WELL UNDER-MANNED Kangaroos forward line without all 3 or Taylor(also key defender)...

Here is where my Harley gripe comes in. Doesn't take a key defensive role without getting beaten (not when we're on top, but when we're under the pump), + is useless at ground level offensively.

Being a bit tough on Harley I think. He does not stop opponents like he once did but I'd say his ball use is actually really good. Not as flashy perhaps as Wojak or Mackey and won't get it as often as Milburn but always clean and reliable by foot and hand.

 

[martyk]

Being a bit tough on Harley I think. He does not stop opponents like he once did but I'd say his ball use is actually really good. Not as flashy perhaps as Wojak or Mackey and won't get it as often as Milburn but always clean and reliable by foot and hand.

Disposal greatly lacks penetration. Possibly the shortest kick in the side even! Usually reliable because he goes sideways. Just think... Have another small defender in the place of Hunt, then allow Hunt to play Harley's role. He would be hitting targets all over the place. Targets up forward on leads that is... not sideways / backwards to unmanned players.

Harley is very one dimensional. Defenders like him are not what clubs look out for in todays game... Defenders require penetrating disposal and speed. He is a good leader and a good marking player at times. Taylor looks like a very worthy replacement INDEED. I'm still praying for Harley to retire at the end of '08. Egan, Scarlett, Hunt and Taylor present a very good STOPPING force as a unit... + Taylor's disposal is already superior to Harley's.

 

[hamG]

Being a bit tough on Harley I think. He does not stop opponents like he once did but I'd say his ball use is actually really good. Not as flashy perhaps as Wojak or Mackey and won't get it as often as Milburn but always clean and reliable by foot and hand.

I agree, he might take too much of a team-centric approach to his game and he will probably never get the stats receiving in back pockets or along the boundary like other players. Can't fault his judgment on when to zone off and help his team mates or take those signature falling backwards into the pack marks. He strikes me as never being the guy who would worry about fattening up his stats by recieving some cheap footy, ever. It's very easy to lose perspective of the value of say Joel Bowden getting 24 touches and 12 marks vs Harley getting 12 touches and 4 marks.

 

[martyk]

It's very easy to lose perspective of the value of say Joel Bowden getting 24 touches and 12 marks vs Harley getting 12 touches and 4 marks.

Actually... good comparison. The thing is, Bowden is an exceptionally accurate kick and very effective, therefore it is worthwhile him getting plenty of it.
An interesting comparison because if Harley was in Bowden's position at a losing club, he would have been shown the door YEARS AGO. Losing clubs require strong leaders who perform ON and off the ground in at least the top 10 players at the club... otherwise the supporters / media etc would call for their head anyway. Harley is riding the wagon and good on him, he captains an exceptional list of players... he just isn't one of them in my book. Not judging him for effectiveness as a stand alone player.

 

[hamG]

Actually... good comparison. The thing is, Bowden is an exceptionally accurate kick and very effective, therefore it is worthwhile him getting plenty of it.
An interesting comparison because if Harley was in Bowden's position at a losing club, he would have been shown the door YEARS AGO. Losing clubs require strong leaders who perform ON and off the ground in at least the top 10 players at the club... otherwise the supporters / media etc would call for their head anyway. Harley is riding the wagon and good on him, he captains an exceptional list of players... he just isn't one of them in my book. Not judging him for effectiveness as a stand alone player.

What? You just said Harley is not good enough to get a game at Richmond and then said you are not judging his effectiveness as a player? Joel Bowden was not good enough to get a game at RICHMOND, he was dropped for 4 weeks. My point was Bowden racks up big stats but they are worthless. He is a dreamteam master, sideways kicks and jogging back to recieve another sideways kick from his team mate. He had 22 disposals in all of the 3 games before he was dropped. Now he's finally been moved forward and is probably much more effective because he doesn't need to worry about not playing any defense anymore.

I also question you referring to a captain being required to perform on and off the field while referring to Harley, and Richmond. When was the last time Kane Johnson did anything at all off the field? On the field he is no where near the class of Geelong's midfield. It's not hard to be in the top 10 players on Richmond's list now is it, we probably have about 28 players who would be in Richmond's top 10.

Tom Harley is a better captain than Kane Johnson and a better defender than Joel Bowden.

 

[couchy555]

Johncock. But you guys won't get him

McLeods contract comin up soon?

 

[DanA]

Actually... good comparison. The thing is, Bowden is an exceptionally accurate kick and very effective, therefore it is worthwhile him getting plenty of it.
An interesting comparison because if Harley was in Bowden's position at a losing club, he would have been shown the door YEARS AGO. Losing clubs require strong leaders who perform ON and off the ground in at least the top 10 players at the club... otherwise the supporters / media etc would call for their head anyway. Harley is riding the wagon and good on him, he captains an exceptional list of players... he just isn't one of them in my book. Not judging him for effectiveness as a stand alone player.

This is absolute tripe. Harley is a good player and would likely be in the top 10 players at any other club. It's just we have 9 AA's.

Judge him all you want as a stand alone player. He takes more marks from opposition kicks than any other player and ranks very highly in 1%ers. A weakness in Bowden's game.

You want him to hang up the boots at the end of 08? I could understand giving up the captaincy (though I would like him to keep it for another year). But retirement all together, that's ridiculous.

 

[cats2rise]

Did I just hear Daniel Bell and 'premiership team' in the same sentence???

Never seen much of him but heard he is pretty average... Saw him against Collingwood and his decision making and disposal is average... Very very average.

No thanks!!

 

[TheTimeCometh]

Re: Small Defenders

which small defenders should we be chasing?

 

[martyk]

You want him to hang up the boots at the end of 08? I could understand giving up the captaincy (though I would like him to keep it for another year). But retirement all together, that's ridiculous.

Well, if he gave up the captaincy he gives up his spot in my book. He is consistently the least effective player in our side... the stats don't lie. He takes a lot of marks in the defensive 50 because he plays off his man... maybe it makes up for all the times his man cuts us up, maybe not?
Look at champion data... he has very little influence as a player.

Joel Bowden is doubted because of his age... nothing else. His kicking is very effective... if you disagree you haven't seen enough football. He is in a side that is developing, therefore he'll struggle at his age. In a side at the top he would get a game every week.
Bowden is superior to Harley... don't be so one eyed about this.
Bowden - Best and Fairest 2004, 2005 All-Australian 2005
You don't see Harley winning B&F do you? Hey? Not even remotely close in fact, and AA... pfft, not worth discussing.

 

[Exhale You]

Re: Small Defenders

which small defenders should we be chasing?

As i intimated in the opening post, i would prefer we develop one, be it by transforming a current player or drafting a player with the specific intention of making him a small defender at AFL level.

 

[The Casey Cat]

Best and Fairest in just about the worst team in the comp. All Australian once and Harley was stiff not to make it a couple of times over 04/05. You sort of had a point initially. Then you kept talking (as usual) and now you're being stupid and ignorant. Harley has been solid as a rock his whole career and while not currently having a great year he is still very much required in our backline and is currently a better defender than cheap kick Bowden.

 

[BlueNWhite]

Personally, I love seeing Harles backing into a pack when the ball is bombed into our defensive 50, as I know that chances are it's going to stick in Captain Courageous' DUKES.

Leave Harles alone, he's a gun.

 

[Pivo]

Re: Small Defenders

I don't think it is a big issue as Geelong has hardly been torn asunder by small forwards in recent times.

Sure, North's small guys slipped under the guard last week and quality small forwards always have the potential to wreak a bit of havoc but I don't think there is too much need to suddenly go off and develop/trade for small defenders.

If anything there is a need for another CHB/FB type as the injury to Egan and now Scarlett has left Geelong very short down back. Harley can't really go to the big boys anymore which leaves Taylor to fight it out and Lonergan is stationed up forward at the moment.

Wojcinski is 180cm but an attacking defender (most of Geelong's defenders are) but should be capable of playing defence when required - the guy has played over 100 games so should have some idea of how to go about it.

The Geelong gameplan, however, revolves around run out of the back 50 so I suspect a number of defenders have changed their mindset recently and the side doesn't want a defense first-sit on your man small defender. Wojcinski, Enright, Mackie, Hunt and even Scarlett tend to run out of defence and down the ground when they see an opportunity so it is clear there is some mandate here.

However, as already mentioned, Donohue is coming through and I think Hogan could potentially be 'groomed' if the club wants to go down that track.

Also, Matthew Stokes played in the back pocket in the SANFL fairly often prior to getting drafted so could also go back there if required,

Joel Selwood also looks like he could do a defensive job if needed. Doesn't have the pace but certainly has the footy smarts and reads the play well.

Bartel could play as a defender if needed (and has previously along with Corey).

And if worse comes to worse David Johnson and Kane Tenace are both still on the list and one is a small, defensive player and the other has been played off half back in recent times.

Appears to be plenty of options to me.

 

[Pivo]

Re: Small Defenders

I think you'll find small defenders are more of a lesser priority than spine and midfield players. I wouldn't be surprised if Geelong again targeted another tall defender (Milburn, Scarlett and Harley are getting on in age) and if NAblett doesn't return to the club, they'll probably look at another tall forward.

Smaller forwards may win a team the odd match but generally it's the KPP that do the most damage.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[sarah.13]

Bowden - Best and Fairest 2004, 2005 All-Australian 2005
You don't see Harley winning B&F do you? Hey? Not even remotely close in fact, and AA... pfft, not worth discussing.

If your relying on those achievements to prove your point, in 2005 Bowden received 0 brownlow votes whilst ave. 25 poss per game.
He is a stats gathering machine that has no influence on a game.

 

[martyk]

If your relying on those achievements to prove your point, in 2005 Bowden received 0 brownlow votes whilst ave. 25 poss per game.
He is a stats gathering machine that has no influence on a game.

Finishing 12th in '05 means they wouldn't have won many games hence no votes. Backman never get brownlow votes anyway, everyone knows that. Irrelevant argument.

He has played in a crap team all of his career... this is not particularly his problem. While he's not a 'great' player, to say he has no influence on a game is rubbish... You simply haven't seen enough Tigers games in the last 5 years. His kicking alone is very accurate and well weighted most of the time, and its not always going backwards. What happens after that is not his doing.

Simple fact remains.... Bowden has better credentials at club and league level, deal with it. Players who have "no influence" on games don't get AA selection mate.

 

[BlueNWhite]

Premiership captain >>>>>> daylight >>>>>> Richmond B&F / AA

 

[martyk]

Premiership captain >>>>>> daylight >>>>>> Richmond B&F / AA

So what... during both Bowden and Harley's careers..
Geelong's Team >>>>>>> daylight >>>>>>> Richmond's Team

The premiership captain who needed the coach to rip shreds off him at 3qtr time of the '07 prelim we nearly lost, because he was playing garbage and getting torn to shreds / not leading the team / not setting the right example.