Proposal to include premierships dating back to 1870 gathering pace

[jarrod_island_doggies]

In last chapter "The workshop of historians assembled by the AFL in 2012 proposed that, in future, premiership listings should be recognised in three distinct eras: The Foundation Era- from 1870 to 1896, The VFL era- from 1897 to 1986 and the National Competition (AFL) Era - from 1987.
Appendix C outlines the premierships won by AFL clubs, from 1870 to 2022, listed in three eras."

The only real problem with this in my eyes is the present era we are in should be the Expansion Era and starts from 1982 when South Melbourne relocated interstate to Sydney. So I see the National Expansion Era as from 1982 to present and it still in process with Tasmania to be added. Before 1981 all clubs are Victorian based. From 1982 we have had clubs based outside of Victoria in the league.

The other issue I have is he does not address the VFA listings in how they should be recorded for history of the other body from the 1897 split.
That should also be the Foundation Era , Reset Era, Challenge VFL era (The Ron Todd and Soapy Vallence defections from league era) , Sunday niche era and Dead Man Walking Era. The last from 1982 to 1994 era.

Will the expansion era end with Tasmania (circa 2026) or with any/all sides from NT/FNQ/ACT/WA3/Newcastle that may or may not arrive? Will there be a fourth era of regional expansion (NZ/PNG) say after 2060? That's another problem with trying to put a line under these arguments from our perspectives in 2023.

 

[footyfan1978]

Will the expansion era end with Tasmania (circa 2026) or with any/all sides from NT/FNQ/ACT/WA3/Newcastle that may or may not arrive? Will there be a fourth era of regional expansion (NZ/PNG) say after 2060? That's another problem with trying to put a line under these arguments from our perspectives in 2023.

When it ends is up for history to record. But we can certainly say in 2023 we been in an expansion era since when South Melbourne moved to Sydney in 1982.

 

[James Colorado]

When it ends is up for history to record. But we can certainly say in 2023 we been in an expansion era since when South Melbourne moved to Sydney in 1982.

Is there a pre-expansion era, i.e., where exhibition games were played in NSW and Qld to see if there was any interest prior to the relocation of South Melbourne? As an interesting point, I did read somewhere (probably Wikipedia tbh) that the code was actually very popular in NSW prior to Rugby League coming into being.

 

[footyfan1978]

Is there a pre-expansion era, i.e., where exhibition games were played in NSW and Qld to see if there was any interest prior to the relocation of South Melbourne? As an interesting point, I did read somewhere (probably Wikipedia tbh) that the code was actually very popular in NSW prior to Rugby League coming into being.

I do not know abour earlier exhibition games in NSW but even before the expansion era there were some actual round matches in Sydney.
We played Essendon there for 1980 season and remember North and Hawks a year earlier and a few other matches in 79 and 80. The night series also had some matches there with NSW and ACT teams involved. Before the expansion era there were a lot of experiments in different ways by the VFL with Aylett etc. Same with Sunday football in Melbourne. We played South Melbourne at MCG in 1981 I think on a Sunday which was first toe dipping into the VFA time of the weekend. Once South relocated in 1982 that eats in VFA territory every second Sunday when matches shown live from Sydney on channel 7, at same time channel 10 showed the VFA every Sunday. Hence why I called 1982 start of national expansion for the league and Dead Man Walking Era for VFA as it was the start of the end for the VFA. Once their niche Sunday following was eaten into it was beginning of the end which finally came at end of 1994.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

The smallest league was four teams in 1916, so we can make that worth "1 point".

So a flag won with 8 clubs in the league is worth 2 points, 12 clubs is worth 3 points, etc, up to flags won in the 18-club comp being worth 4.5 points.

46.25 Hawthorn (13)
45.75 Carlton (16)
45.00 Essendon (16)
41.75 Collingwood (15)
41.75 Richmond (13)
39.50 Melbourne (13)
34.75 Geelong (10)
16.75 Fitzroy (8)
16.00 West Coast (4)
16.00 Sydney / South Melbourne (5)
14.00 North Melbourne (4)
12.00 Brisbane Lions (3)
8.00 Adelaide (2)
7.50 Footscray / Western Bulldogs (2)
4.00 Port Adelaide (1)
3.00 St Kilda (1)
0.00 University (0)
0.00 Gold Coast (0)
0.00 Greater Western Sydney (0)

There’s no Fremantle?

 

[ThatsjustDappa]

Is there a pre-expansion era, i.e., where exhibition games were played in NSW and Qld to see if there was any interest prior to the relocation of South Melbourne? As an interesting point, I did read somewhere (probably Wikipedia tbh) that the code was actually very popular in NSW prior to Rugby League coming into being.

Noticed in the Football Records from 1922 it mentioned the first Vic vs NSW game was 1881 played in Vic first then NSW. (Wish the flogs in the current day media would write like they did back then - quite hilarious). There was a NSW league...earlier football records covered a NSW Rugby League match.



State Library Victoria - Viewer

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Is there a pre-expansion era, i.e., where exhibition games were played in NSW and Qld to see if there was any interest prior to the relocation of South Melbourne? As an interesting point, I did read somewhere (probably Wikipedia tbh) that the code was actually very popular in NSW prior to Rugby League coming into being.

First VFL game in NSW was 1903.

First match for points in the VFL played at the SCG – NSW Australian Football History Society Inc

 

[terrybull]

The smallest league was four teams in 1916, so we can make that worth "1 point".

So a flag won with 8 clubs in the league is worth 2 points, 12 clubs is worth 3 points, etc, up to flags won in the 18-club comp being worth 4.5 points.

46.25 Hawthorn (13)
45.75 Carlton (16)
45.00 Essendon (16)
41.75 Collingwood (15)
41.75 Richmond (13)
39.50 Melbourne (13)
34.75 Geelong (10)
16.75 Fitzroy (8)
16.00 West Coast (4)
16.00 Sydney / South Melbourne (5)
14.00 North Melbourne (4)
12.00 Brisbane Lions (3)
8.00 Adelaide (2)
7.50 Footscray / Western Bulldogs (2)
4.00 Port Adelaide (1)
3.00 St Kilda (1)
0.00 University (0)
0.00 Gold Coast (0)
0.00 Greater Western Sydney (0)

Everyone is screaming at the AFL to leave the game alone, stop changing the rules.

Yet…. here…

 

[MelbourneGWS]

First VFL game in NSW was 1903.

First match for points in the VFL played at the SCG – NSW Australian Football History Society Inc

But we have also played games for premiership points in New Zealand and China? The expansion of the then VFL nationwide can be dated from 1982 when Sydney (South Melbourne) had a full time team?

 

[frankiecow]

I remember a story from when Goldstein was newly drafted to North and how he was falling asleep in team meetings. His coach got annoyed about that before finding out Goldstein was working a second job to make ends meet. Now North got Goldstein a better job but to me that is not professional. If you need to work a second job that is not a professional league. It is only fully professional when all players are able to spend 100% of their work time actually working on being the best player they can be.

Lol how old do you think Todd Goldstein is? He was drafted on a full contract as an 18 year old. He had more money than he knew what to do with at that age.

You’re thinking of Cam Pedersen, who was drafted as a mature age player and signed to a rookie contract. The only reason he had to work a second job was because he was in his mid 20s and had a family that he needed to care for, so a rookie wage doesn’t go very far in that scenario - he would’ve likely been on a fair bit less money than he was on before he got drafted, when he was working a 9 to 5 and playing semi-professionally, just so he could have a crack at making his dream become a reality.

Pedersen was drafted in 2011 btw, so does this mean that the AFL still wasn’t professional 13 ago? When exactly are you counting flags from?

 

[Captain_Bender]

Isn't it ironic that after the VFA introduced a official premiership Geelong didn't win any

 

[frankiecow]

While I do believe that you heard this story, aren't draftees on like $90k a year?

He thinks Todd Goldstein was drafted in the 80s and still playing in 2024. Even if he was drafted in the 80s, when the pay wasn’t as much, he was drafted as an 18 year old, so any salary would’ve been a lot to him at the time.

He’s thinking of Cam Pedersen, who was drafted as a mid 20 year old and signed on to a rookie contract. He had a family he had to take care of, so he needed to work the second job to support them - he likely would’ve taken a pretty substantial pay cut from his 9 to 5 job and amateur footy pay to try and live out his dream of playing AFL.

Pedersen was only drafted in 2011 anyway, so I’m not really sure what the point of that was. Unless they’re suggesting the AFL wasn’t professional 13 years ago.

Common sense and logic seemingly went on holiday during the telling of this story.

 

[Sttew]

Isn't it ironic that after the VFA introduced a official premiership Geelong didn't win any

What was 1878?

 

[caloschwaby]

Sure go and put the records back to 1870 where Collingwood won 100% of Grand Finals before the VFA/VFL split despite only playing in the thing for 4 years

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

No way that should happen.


They should go back to 1770 when Jack and Jill played one on one. It's only fair.

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

Two-Man County, Jack Jackson......3 votes

 

[Pistol Night]

No way that should happen.


They should go back to 1770 when Jack and Jill played one on one. It's only fair.

One on one footy against ya missus? Boy would that be therapeutic some days

 

[Cleansweep17]

No just no. We don’t need another Geelong GOAT thing right now. They have 10

 

[sherb]

Is there a pre-expansion era, i.e., where exhibition games were played in NSW and Qld to see if there was any interest prior to the relocation of South Melbourne? As an interesting point, I did read somewhere (probably Wikipedia tbh) that the code was actually very popular in NSW prior to Rugby League coming into being.

Here is a very brief history of the game in NSW.

First recorded game was between Waratah and Carlton in 1877.

NSW Australian Football History Society - AFL NSW / ACT

The NSW Australian Football History Society Inc. is a non-profit organisation whose role is to research, gather, document, catalogue and arrange for the safe keeping of objects and items of significant interest to the history of Australian Football in…Read more ›

aflnswact.com.au

 

[sherb]

There is a very simple principle that can be applied to acknowledging premierships.

A club acknowledges premierships it has won across all leagues in which it has played.

A league acknowledges premierships won by clubs only in that particular league.

 

[Simche]

There is a very simple principle that can be applied to acknowledging premierships.

A club acknowledges premierships it has won across all leagues in which it has played.

A league acknowledges premierships won by clubs only in that particular league.

Came here to post something sensible and similar.

There's a lot of rubbish flags out there if you scratch the surface (war years, challenge system, minimal clubs etc.) Lets count them all but only with proper categorization and weighting those in the national era as most significant.

 

[terrybull]

Came here to post something sensible and similar.

There's a lot of rubbish flags out there if you scratch the surface (war years, challenge system, minimal clubs etc.) Lets count them all but only with proper categorization and weighting those in the national era as most significant.

Don’t know how they do in other Leagues, but in the VFL/AFL a Premiership is worth 1 regardless if it’s won with just four teams, challenge system, covid, one state etc etc

Then if it’s more significant in the National era is just a subject of taste, and an argument you can’t win as there are many different tastes out there.

Officially it’s 1 and the same worth if you won in 1897 or 2023.

 

[Partridge]

Don’t know how they do in other Leagues, but in the VFL/AFL a Premiership is worth 1 regardless if it’s won with just four teams, challenge system, covid, one state etc etc

Then if it’s more significant in the National era is just a subject of taste, and an argument you can’t win as there are many different tastes out there.

Officially it’s 1 and the same worth if you won in 1897 or 2023.

That's how I look at it.

For a long, long time, the "league" was the VFL - the breakaway competition which started in 1897. That's when the clock starts. From 1990 it's the AFL. Whether it was flags won in the silly 1920s final systems (and Geelong benefited from that in 1925), or Fitzroy's truly magnificent 1916 triumph, they all count. But any flags prior to 1897 don't. The individual club might have won them, but in the competition that counts it is and has always been 1897.

If that means your team (or mine) has won less than another team you loathe, bad luck.